Pinnacle Delta Flow-through

[ACL65PILOT]

Fair enough. Hopefully the flow at CPS will change that history.

It is our goal to keep it, but we will see what management says about it.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Waiting for a pilot shortage to drive up the industry wage is futile. If you want to get paid what you are worth, we will have to fight and bleed. I hate to say it, and it's tough to do, but we, as an industry, will need to strike in order to get our point accross. No underlying schemes to gain market share or grow at the expense of someone else's loss. I flash back to a movie scene in "Goodfellas". So your airline traffic is down, F-U Pay me.......so oil is up to 150 a barrel, F-U Pay me.........so you need me to subsidize your poor business model, F-U Pay Me.............

I like the way you think. It is too bad all of our fellow pilots don't think the same way.

 

[flyboyike]

Fair enough. Hopefully the flow at CPS will change that history.

How can it "change that history" when the entire Compass pilot group signed on while being specifically aware of being under the ax every hour of every day? If by changing you mean that other regionals will get a similar "deal", this regional pilot's response is thanks, but no thanks. I'd much rather grab a firm hold of the bird I have in hand than hope against hope for the two the mainliner is telling me are in the bush, even though for all I know those two birds never even flew anywhere near said bush, if you get the metaphor.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It will prove that as the flow up a flow can work for the regional guy too.
It may not be at a carrier like EV who is established, but it is a start. When XJ flows to DAL is will prove that an established carrier has a flow that works.

Lets just hope it is not negotiated away for some BS protection.

 

[flyboyike]

It will prove that as the flow up a flow can work for the regional guy too.

As long as said regional guy is willing to risk everything up to and including his daily bread, right?

 

[flyburg]

To give a little overseas perspective, KLM and KLM Cityhopper.

KLM Cityhopper is fully owned by KLM. They fly the Fokker 50 (midway between a ATR 42 and 72), the Fokker 70/100 and recently the EMB190.

KLM started Cityhopper around the '90. It was very complicated were FO's were hired of the street and KLM pilots could bid captain with cityhopper (due scope).Finally in 96 it was decided to create a single seniority list. All pilots hired initially with KLC could get on the KLM seniority list after passing the KLM interview proces( some didn't make it and are stuck on the regional side) and got half their time in service with a maximum of 4 years towards seniority on the mainline list.

From that point on(96),one got hired with KLM or Cityhopper(same interview proces same list) however if you got hired at Cityhopper you had to wait 6 years before you could bid a mainline position.

In '93 the CLA was changed again and everybody was equal. Everybody got hired by KLM and depending on need you either got placed with KLM or KLC. There is no 6 year period anymore. Only seat locks.

It is fairly complicated but with KLM you have horizontal and vertical seatlocks. Every new hire get's hired into a entry level postition. The entry level positions are FO on the F50, F70/100, EMB190 or CRP on any of the widebody's. Once your seatlock is up (generally 3 years, however for an entry level postion anywhere between 1 and 3 years depending on your next equipment)) you can bid any position you want.

They are still 2 different companies, however from a pilots perspective it is only different divisions with one exception, there is a pay cap when one works at KLC, however the pay cap doesn't start until you hit about the age of 40.

In my opinion it is a great system. We hold all flying from 50 seats in house. KLM hires (or did so in the past) mainly from their in house school, ex military and then experienced guys of the street. the experienced guys / ex mil could hold quick commands on the KLC side if they so desired. Every A/C holds it's own specific life style. I chosed FO on the B73, however I could easily hold captaincy on the F70/100 or EMB190. Personal choice, I'm waiting for an FO slot on a widebody.

I have often wondered though why US airlines didn't adopt a similar system

 

[flyboyike]

I have often wondered though why US airlines didn't adopt a similar system

Well, for one thing, you only have (basically) one airline and much fewer people. Any HR program is much easier to implement with smaller numbers.

 

[contrail67]

will it ever happen?

Actually made me laugh.....

 

[seniorgolfer]

We turn a 757 in 45 to 50 minutes. A 767 in an hr. There is no reason not to be able to turn a 50/70/or 76 seat jet in 25 mins.
I did that all of the time.

Depends on the "speed" of the ground handling in ATL(most above/below wing are Delta employees ) for fuel, catering, cleaning, bag handling, gate, and whether the flight crew needs to "swap" aircraft or not.

You can turn quick at out bases sometimes (no catering or cleaning, and often no crew swaps), but you won't do 25 min in ATL very often. I think Delta "schedules" a minimum of 40 min turns in ATL, for good reason.

ASA's performance stats for A-14 and D-O in 2008 frequently exceeded mainline stats as posted on the ASA web page. The company has greatly improved performance since 93, when I was hired.

 

[xjlifer]

Yea as a pilot I LOVE 25 minute turns. Lets see If we can get um...4 of them in I can spend 8 hours in the plane. Eat my stinky tuna in cruise and use the Lav in the back.

 

[andyd]

Nice idea, but do you really think that the pilots will be given control of hiring standards at any airline? Maybe you should start with scope first...

Two of the 3 person panel that interviewed me were active DAL Captains, the person in charge and that gave me the letter of hire...retired DAL Captain. His assistant that decided who's of the 10,000 apps to send to Arnie to be reviewed for an invite to interview: Retired DAL Captain.

 

[crj567]

It will prove that as the flow up a flow can work for the regional guy too.
It may not be at a carrier like EV who is established, but it is a start. When XJ flows to DAL is will prove that an established carrier has a flow that works.

Lets just hope it is not negotiated away for some BS protection.

TRANSLATION:

"Screw everyone else, just give me a place to go when I get furloughed."

-You should have heard this tool a few years back.

 

[Moustache]

TRANSLATION:

"Screw everyone else, just give me a place to go when I get furloughed."

-You should have heard this tool a few years back.

Did you wake up too early?

 

[CFI2766]

It will prove that as the flow up a flow can work for the regional guy too.
It may not be at a carrier like EV who is established, but it is a start. When XJ flows to DAL is will prove that an established carrier has a flow that works.

Lets just hope it is not negotiated away for some BS protection.

I think that most people would like for there to be a win/win scenario here. However, it seems that the only people that a flow up/through/back will ultimately benefit are the mainline guys looking for a fall back plan in tough times.

Create a plan that is equally fair to the regional guys when times are good, and provisions to make said plan fair to the regional guys when times are tough, and there might be more interest.

 

[flyboyike]

I think that most people would like for there to be a win/win scenario here. However, it seems that the only people that a flow up/through/back will ultimately benefit are the mainline guys looking for a fall back plan in tough times.

Create a plan that is equally fair to the regional guys when times are good, and provisions to make said plan fair to the regional guys when times are tough, and there might be more interest.

Amen!

 

[PuffDriver]

TRANSLATION:

"Screw everyone else, just give me a place to go when I get furloughed."

-You should have heard this tool a few years back.

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

The chickens are coming home to roost. Regional are not the growth machines that the regional guys used to think they were. They are not cash cows anymore. They are feeling the pinch from their over expansion. With the exception of Mesa, Delta really doesn't care who feeds them, and with the glut of regionals, their contracts are coming under fire. Costs need to be cut--as in pilot costs. The regional wage peaked, and is feeling intense pressure down.

Your career has been made on the backs of legacy pilots, and the control of that career has always been in the hands of people other than you. Up to recently, it has been give, give, give from the legacies and take, take, take on your part. Those days are drawing to a close.

The reality is setting in. Your airlines do a poor job of feeding. You do a poor job of customer service in and out of the plane. RJs are cramped and hot, and not a good place to sit for 2 hours with no updates from the crew. Look for more changes as more 50 seaters get parked, and more embs come on line to airlines whose MECs are more cooperative with the DAL mec.

It's reality, it's what I have been predicting for awhile, and it's happening.

Irony is a bitch, isn't it.

 

[sweptback]

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

The chickens are coming home to roost. Regional are not the growth machines that the regional guys used to think they were. They are not cash cows anymore. They are feeling the pinch from their over expansion. With the exception of Mesa, Delta really doesn't care who feeds them, and with the glut of regionals, their contracts are coming under fire. Costs need to be cut--as in pilot costs. The regional wage peaked, and is feeling intense pressure down.

Your career has been made on the backs of legacy pilots, and the control of that career has always been in the hands of people other than you. Up to recently, it has been give, give, give from the legacies and take, take, take on your part. Those days are drawing to a close.

The reality is setting in. Your airlines do a poor job of feeding. You do a poor job of customer service in and out of the plane. RJs are cramped and hot, and not a good place to sit for 2 hours with no updates from the crew. Look for more changes as more 50 seaters get parked, and more embs come on line to airlines whose MECs are more cooperative with the DAL mec.

It's reality, it's what I have been predicting for awhile, and it's happening.

Irony is a bitch, isn't it.

Look, neither side is blameless. I could have written a condescending and snarky reply like you did but I'm not like that.

We both have something that the other side wants and the sooner EACH SIDE realizes that, the sooner we can make things happen.

If we keep playing the "us-versus-them" mentality that you guys are playing now, it's never going to happen.

 

[PuffDriver]

Look, neither side is blameless. I could have written a condescending and snarky reply like you did but I'm not like that.

We both have something that the other side wants and the sooner EACH SIDE realizes that, the sooner we can make things happen.

If we keep playing the "us-versus-them" mentality that you guys are playing now, it's never going to happen.

That's the point. There is nothing that the regionals have that the legacies want and cannot get. There is plenty that the regionals want that they simply must wait and see what happens.

The legacies control the game. The regionals are simply a product of the outcome.

It's not condescending. It's reality. The sooner the regionals realize that, the better off they will be.

It is what it is.

 

[flyboyike]

That's the point. There is nothing that the regionals have that the legacies want and cannot get. There is plenty that the regionals want that they simply must wait and see what happens.

The legacies control the game. The regionals are simply a product of the outcome.

It's not condescending. It's reality. The sooner the regionals realize that, the better off they will be.

It is what it is.

That sounds familiar. Is this where I say "Yes, massa, whatever you say, massa?"

 

[sweptback]

That's the point. There is nothing that the regionals have that the legacies want and cannot get. There is plenty that the regionals want that they simply must wait and see what happens.

The legacies control the game. The regionals are simply a product of the outcome.

It's not condescending. It's reality. The sooner the regionals realize that, the better off they will be.

It is what it is.

Are you sure about that? DCI carriers fly over 50% of the domestic flights. How does mainline get that back without making huge concessions, if it's even possible?

 

[PuffDriver]

That sounds familiar. Is this where I say "Yes, massa, whatever you say, massa?"

Um, yeah, that's it. Comparing slavery to our scope situation. Right on, man.

Nobody is forcing you to work at Comair. you can quit anytime. While you do, your flying is subject to increase, decrease, or cancellation.

The RJDC had the same mentality.

 

[PuffDriver]

Are you sure about that? DCI carriers fly over 50% of the domestic flights. How does mainline get that back without making huge concessions, if it's even possible?

Who said anything about getting it back? Most mainliners have no interest in flying a saab 340 to MYR 8 times a day. What they do have an interest in is keeping that customer, who may be going to FCO--that's Rome for you regional folk. Moreover, that MYR-ATL leg needs to have the costs controlled so that the entire ticket represents a profit, so that their mainline wage can be brought up.

Some very smart folks have finger on this pulse. As we say at mainline, you'll get the memo.

 

[sweptback]

Who said anything about getting it back? Most mainliners have no interest in flying a saab 340 to MYR 8 times a day. What they do have an interest in is keeping that customer, who may be going to FCO--that's Rome for you regional folk. Moreover, that MYR-ATL leg needs to have the costs controlled so that the entire ticket represents a profit, so that their mainline wage can be brought up.

Some very smart folks have finger on this pulse. As we say at mainline, you'll get the memo.

This is what gets me. You guys look at some flying like it's below you. With that attitude, things will never change.

News flash: there are 76-seat aircraft flying Delta passengers on Delta routes. These airplanes are flying routes that the 737-200 and 727 flew just a few short years ago. I guess you don't want those back. What were the captain rates on the 737-200 anyway? How many more mainline jobs are you willing to give away to protect your precious Rome flights?

 

[flyboyike]

Um, yeah, that's it. Comparing slavery to our scope situation. Right on, man.

Well, you know the old saying about well-fitting shoes, right?

 

[PuffDriver]

Well, you know the old saying about well-fitting shoes, right?

Yeah, I do, and your response is still trite and juvenile.

..oh, and stupid. You must fit right in at Comair.

 

[PuffDriver]

This is what gets me. You guys look at some flying like it's below you. With that attitude, things will never change.

News flash: there are 76-seat aircraft flying Delta passengers on Delta routes. These airplanes are flying routes that the 737-200 and 727 flew just a few short years ago. I guess you don't want those back. What were the captain rates on the 737-200 anyway? How many more mainline jobs are you willing to give away to protect your precious Rome flights?

The 12 year rate for the 737-200 was somewhere just north of 200/hr for captains when it went away. You are taking a molehill--not wanting to fly saabs to MYR, and making a mountain--not wanting 76 seat flying--out of it. Keep track of your arguments.

 

[Flyer1015]

Your career has been made on the backs of legacy pilots

The same arrogant pri*ks who were "too good" to fly RJs, and scoped them out to protect their own hide, circa early/mid 90s. So save the speech. Look in the mirror to see what the problem is.

Costs need to be cut--as in pilot costs. The regional wage peaked,

Regional pilots are already paid peanuts. This is just wonderful... another pilot proposing and furthering pilot custs (on one of their own kind). Management's wet dream.

Up to recently, it has been give, give, give from the legacies and take, take, take on your part.

Well gee, who farmed out scope in the first place? Pot, kettle....... meet.

Irony is a bitch, isn't it.

I should be saying this to you, not the other way around. NONE of these problems would exist had the legacy pilots had the cajones to keep RJs where they belonged.

Who said anything about getting it back? Most mainliners have no interest in flying a saab 340 to MYR 8 times a day.

That's EXACTLY the type of attitude I'm talking about! You reap what you sow, you farmed out scope, kept RJs off because you were "too good" to fly them, and had "no interest" in it.

who may be going to FCO--that's Rome for you regional folk

I know what airport FCO is. Just because I haven't piloted across the pond with your "God's gift of aviation" mentality, doesn't mean I don't know what airport FCO is. We, too, use flight benefits and see the world.

 

[Flyer1015]

This is what gets me. You guys look at some flying like it's below you. With that attitude, things will never change.

EXACTLY. Which is why any pilot with the attitude like puffdriver gets zero sympathy from me. You reap what you sow. Your fault, not mine.

 

[sweptback]

The 12 year rate for the 737-200 was somewhere just north of 200/hr for captains when it went away. You are taking a molehill--not wanting to fly saabs to MYR, and making a mountain--not wanting 76 seat flying--out of it. Keep track of your arguments.

It's the same argument. Whether it's a Saab 340, a EMB 175, or 747-400, it's Delta flying and should be flown by Delta pilots.

You just prefer to see it a different way.

 

[PuffDriver]

It's the same argument. Whether it's a Saab 340, a EMB 175, or 747-400, it's Delta flying and should be flown by Delta pilots.

You just prefer to see it a different way.

What should be done, and the reality of what can be done are two different things. I see it from a realist standpoint, and from the standpoint of actually being here.