Pinnacle Delta Flow-through

[koepp]

They will actually flow more that CPS. Up to 183 a year. That is about 100 more a year than CPS can flow.
As we start hiring they and CPS get first dibs.

Frankly, CRJ567 I will not need the flow down. This is not about me, no matter how you try to spin this. It is about getting everyone on the same page. You will see the offers for a CPSesque flow be presented in the coming months.

The XJ flow is limited to 9 per month or 10% of their pilot group in a rolling 12 month period so they'll max out at 108 per year. The CP flow is limited to 20 per month or 25% of the pilot group in a rolling 12 month period so we'll max out at about 83 pilots per year.

 

[PCL_128]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

Maybe that wouldn't have been a problem if you hadn't given away your scope.

Sorry, but there's no legitimate argument to keeping these guys from flowing up. They already fly your passengers using your code in airplanes that have your company's logo and name on the side. Get the flow, then get the single list and end this outsourcing BS.

 

[Speedtape]

Maybe that wouldn't have been a problem if you hadn't given away your scope.

Sorry, but there's no legitimate argument to keeping these guys from flowing up. They already fly your passengers using your code in airplanes that have your company's logo and name on the side. Get the flow, then get the single list and end this outsourcing BS.

Maybe you should ask an Eagle pilot about that.

Just curious? How many Compass and/or Mesaba pilots have flowed?

Ask an Eagle pilot how many Eagle pilots have flowed. Ask an Eagle pilot how many AA pilots have flowed down!

 

[sweptback]

Maybe you should ask an Eagle pilot about that.

Just curious? How many Compass and/or Mesaba pilots have flowed?

Ask an Eagle pilot how many Eagle pilots have flowed. Ask an Eagle pilot how many AA pilots have flowed down!

If a flowthrough was done right, it would prevent that from happening.

A Compass-style flowthrough wouldn't work at an established regional. It only worked at Compass because every pilot hired knew the deal. How is it fair to change the terms of employment for every other DCI carrier?

The only way to get the regionals to sign on, IMO, is make the Delta hiring exclusive to the DCI regional flow-up. No outside street hiring unless you go to a DCI carrier first. If DALPA/DAL did that, you'd see every DCI carrier sign on in a heartbeat -- they'd be fools not to.

 

[crj567]

If a flowthrough was done right, it would prevent that from happening.

A Compass-style flowthrough wouldn't work at an established regional. It only worked at Compass because every pilot hired knew the deal. How is it fair to change the terms of employment for every other DCI carrier?

The only way to get the regionals to sign on, IMO, is make the Delta hiring exclusive to the DCI regional flow-up. No outside street hiring unless you go to a DCI carrier first. If DALPA/DAL did that, you'd see every DCI carrier sign on in a heartbeat -- they'd be fools not to.

That would be a great idea-DAL pilots would get some perspective for a couple of years and perhaps would appreciate the fact that many "barbie jet" pilots do an excellent job as well..

 

[DrewBlows]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

Does the Delta contract have hiring minimums?

Compass' contract has a minimum hiring requirement. I'm not sure what the exact requirements are but essentially you have to ATP eligible. I don't know if this was a company addition to the contract or an association addition, and I honestly don't know what the point is. In theory I guess if everyone was hiring it would give ALPA an opportunity to negotiate better terms in order to attract new talent. In practice the company just ignores the requirement. A handful of guys were hired with less than minimums and the result was an LOA that made it legal.

I guess given the choice of securing scope (still unlikely) or setting hiring minimums, I would choose securing scope. I think long term it gives pilots more negotiating capital. A situation might arise when there is a pilot shortage, but to give pilots negotiating power it would have to happen at a time when the company really wanted new pilots. If the company is that profitable it seems to me they would be more inclined to pay a little more anyway.

Just my opinion. I'm not advocating anything and I don't think name calling is necessary to illustrate a point. I think it's counterproductive.

 

[doh]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

And yet you continue to allow your management to source ever larger percentages of your flying to these pilots who have "no business flying for an airline".

 

[Speedtape]

If a flowthrough was done right, it would prevent that from happening.

The only way to get the regionals to sign on, IMO, is make the Delta hiring exclusive to the DCI regional flow-up. No outside street hiring unless you go to a DCI carrier first. If DALPA/DAL did that, you'd see every DCI carrier sign on in a heartbeat -- they'd be fools not to.

Your idea is a change we can all believe in!

But, you can forget it! That will never, never happen! Delta and DALPA will never, never relinquish the ability to hire guys/gals coming out of the military and then the next privileged group of former employees, sons, daughters, and relatives. These folks will always get first priority amd have direct access to hiring.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

So who do you think 85% of those interview slots go to flow or no flow??? Guess what these days it's still regional pilots. Are they going to require 1000 PIC and raise the pay or say 500 PIC or wait that didn't work ok how about 2000 total turbine ( yes perhaps not even 1 PIC type) not enough yet? ok how about 1000 turbine and a 4 year degree??? ect ect ect. Don't think it would happen, look at history it's already been happening. Next thing you'll know is Delta will be interviewing 250 wonders. ( oh by the way look at a certain minority program they pulled at a major college flight school and you aren't that far from it now) ( and there were MUCH better/ more qualified pilots left in the dust with that deal)

 

[whalefat]

Your idea is a change we can all believe in!

But, you can forget it! That will never, never happen! Delta and DALPA will never, never relinquish the ability to hire guys/gals coming out of the military and then the next privileged group of former employees, sons, daughters, and relatives. These folks will always get first priority amd have direct access to hiring.

Relatives first and a few military guys it was heavily civilian in the last round wasn't it?

 

[PuffDriver]

That would be a great idea-DAL pilots would get some perspective for a couple of years and perhaps would appreciate the fact that many "barbie jet" pilots do an excellent job as well..

No, you don't. That's why Delta management is actually in court trying to get rid of one. They do a crappy job.

I see the crap job you guys do on a daily basis. There is actually an objective in the 2009 Delta flight plan to bring the regionals up to Delta's standards in terms of performance and service.

In short, you cannot perform to our level. If we screw up, you screw up more.

Bottom line, if a regional does not exist, mainline fills the void with itself or another regional. Without your trunk carrier, you are out of a job. Your job stems directly from the legacy. It is that premise which is the reason that there has to be flow down equality to flow up.

nuff said. Carry on with your :bawling: :bawling:

 

[JumpersAway]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

Waiting for a pilot shortage to drive up the industry wage is futile. If you want to get paid what you are worth, we will have to fight and bleed. I hate to say it, and it's tough to do, but we, as an industry, will need to strike in order to get our point accross. No underlying schemes to gain market share or grow at the expense of someone else's loss. I flash back to a movie scene in "Goodfellas". So your airline traffic is down, F-U Pay me.......so oil is up to 150 a barrel, F-U Pay me.........so you need me to subsidize your poor business model, F-U Pay Me.............

 

[doh]

No, you don't. That's why Delta management is actually in court trying to get rid of one. They do a crappy job.

I see the crap job you guys do on a daily basis. There is actually an objective in the 2009 Delta flight plan to bring the regionals up to Delta's standards in terms of performance and service.

In short, you cannot perform to our level. If we screw up, you screw up more.

Bottom line, if a regional does not exist, mainline fills the void with itself or another regional. Without your trunk carrier, you are out of a job. Your job stems directly from the legacy. It is that premise which is the reason that there has to be flow down equality to flow up.

nuff said. Carry on with your :bawling: :bawling:

And there is where you are wrong. I fly enough on the airlines now to qualify for "platinum" status. The reason the regionals suck is their aircraft are filthy, and their schedules are unrealistic, thus making them constantly late. That is a direct result of mainlines intervention. You can't have a clean airplane unless you allocate enough time to clean the G*ddamn thing. The crews are never the problem, at least they never have been for me.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We turn a 757 in 45 to 50 minutes. A 767 in an hr. There is no reason not to be able to turn a 50/70/or 76 seat jet in 25 mins.
I did that all of the time.

 

[Papa Woody]

There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

You know that Delta guy, too?

 

[Speedtape]

We turn a 757 in 45 to 50 minutes. A 767 in an hr. There is no reason not to be able to turn a 50/70/or 76 seat jet in 25 mins.
I did that all of the time.

And as you well know--that turn is totally dependent on the readiness, attitude, and efficiency of the Above Wing and Below Wing, fellow team members. Oops, those are now mainline employees, and in Atlanta usually the new hires!

25 minute turns are very possible--the flight crews are generally not the problem. However, there is no recovery time if the flight is running late.

Do you still cross seat belts on your 767?

 

[doh]

We turn a 757 in 45 to 50 minutes. A 767 in an hr. There is no reason not to be able to turn a 50/70/or 76 seat jet in 25 mins.
I did that all of the time.

Not with one flight attendant. You have got to build some time in there for human physiological needs. And you have to operate on a margin which allows resources for replacement of old seats, etc.

 

[JoeMerchant]

We turn a 757 in 45 to 50 minutes. A 767 in an hr. There is no reason not to be able to turn a 50/70/or 76 seat jet in 25 mins.
I did that all of the time.

YOUR fellow Delta employees can't turn a 50 seat RJ in ATL in less than 45 minutes.....I thought mainline was better?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Let's do some math....How many Delta pilots do we think will be hired in the next 10 years?

I'll take a guess at none for a couple of years....and then about 350 per year starting in 2011....after the 200 or so that have to flow up from Compass and Mesaba....that leaves about 150 per year from all other sources.

Does anyone really want to pin their hopes on those odds?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Joe, there are some years that we will need to hire over 800 just to keep up with attrition.

I agree that if we hire the next few years it will be small. Now starting in 2012 the game is on. We will start and probably not stop for 20 years.