Pinnacle Air Services

[AirplanesSuck]

How do you pack for two weeks? I just talked to a JetCorp pilot the other day (now part of JetDirect) who said they are going to a 20 on, 10 off schedule, with travel days tacked on front and back (so really 22 on, 8 off). You PA guys have been out for more than 15 days lately? Mandatory O/T? You should tell them to pay you O/T at the JetRide rate.

 

[Rake]

Pack for one week and do a wash. Who knows when I'm coming home. The 45's schedule is very "dynamic" right now. No comment on OT. This has been addressed before and no solution was obtained.

 

[Downwind]

OT, yeah, that's REAL funny. OT doesn't exist on PA property.

What higher med premium? We pay $2.00 a month at PA.

15/15 or 16/14, or 18/17, pack for 9 then wash. Our remote schedule sucks, no doubt.

 

[CFI4LIFE]

No OT? Best be airlining me back to base on my last day then, I don't fly for free. Ever.

 

[Rokit88]

Word! I turn into a pumpkin on my days off and the only thing that will fix that is MONEY!

 

[AirplanesSuck]

Companies like Pinnacle and Jetride do not need our charity. As much as they may want it, gaps in coverage are direct results of staffing and schedule incompentencies. I'm always glad to help out in this respect, but for a price. The idea that schedules can't be covered and the slack must somehow be picked up by those of us who have no control over it whatsoever is simply absurd.

Write emails to Wynn, guys. Tell him that it's unacceptable for a company worth millions and making millions in profit to ask you to work days off without just compensation. Reference contract pilot day pay. Be respectful... he'll listen.

 

[cl604driver]

i heard that the jetride cp got a g-4 type and told nobody???

 

[starcheckdriver]

i heard that the jetride cp got a g-4 type and told nobody???

He told anybody that inquired about his absence in the office. And before any starts to rant about the justification for him getting the type....Jetride's POI and some others from the FAA mandated that a member of management be typed in the aircraft prior to commencing revenue operations. So, it was either the CP or the DO.

 

[Ritz Carlton]

Pinnacle will not pay over time, in the past if a pilot worked one of their scheduled days off, the policy stated that Pinnacle was suppose to pay that pilot $100.00. As far as I know one pilot just resigned and they had not compensated him for the 10 days he had worked and that is a fact. There is no progressive pay scale in place and no overtime policy in place at present. They have lost 4 pilots in the 45 program in the last few months and that is a fact.

 

[starcheckdriver]

My guess is that most of the pilots from the former Jetride will not stand for working days off without compensation. As AirplanesSuck stated earlier, most are happy to help out the company in a jam, but not for free. We work enough as it is and value our time off. Working overtime without pay is just plain wrong and no company should expect their employees to do it.

Food for thought....I don't always need money for working a day off. Sometimes getting an extra day off the following duty rotation will suffice as just compensation.

 

[osy007]

Things I would like to see

They keep mentioning that they want to make this a company where employees want to stay and make a career out of it. I quess they intend to change things for the better.

Things I would like to see.........
1. Pay Scale-----I would like to know where I will be in 10 years.
2. Equal pay for all pilots except large a/c. I especially want to hear some feedback on this one..... My argument is, why should someone working twice as hard get paid less than someone because he is in a slightly larger a/c.
We fly almost everyday unless the plane is down for mx.
3. A REAL seniority list that works when bidding on available positions.
The current system stinks of ca-ca-pookie.
4. FAC commitee--LOL.....one that would work..

I think that this should keep the thread going....

 

[macpilot]

If PA and JR are going to slowly start to intigrate everything, then PA will probably adobt jr's overtime policy along with everything else, is that correct. Including payscales and schedule. And how about per diem. This is probably redundant, but I thought it was all addressed ealier.

Also, does jetride do any kind of standardization training or have sop's.

Any jetride guys going to be in Vegas monday thru thursday?

 

[osy007]

If PA and JR are going to slowly start to intigrate everything, then PA will probably adobt jr's overtime policy along with everything else, is that correct. Including payscales and schedule. And how about per diem. This is probably redundant, but I thought it was all addressed ealier.

Also, does jetride do any kind of standardization training or have sop's.

Any jetride guys going to be in Vegas monday thru thursday?

Nothing is standardized....pay is all over the place...I think JR pilots would have a real hissy if they knew what some are making.. The off the street guys tend to get paid 5-15k more.......Ask airplanes suck guy....OFF the street LR60 Capt pay for one individual is 85K.. total b.s.

Perdiem is most likely to change to the JR policy. $36 measly dollars a day.

We were standardized in the LR60 with SOP's and profiles. But not will all of the other a/c.

 

[macpilot]

Nothing is standardized....pay is all over the place...I think JR pilots would have a real hissy if they knew what some are making.. The off the street guys tend to get paid 5-15k more.......Ask airplanes suck guy....OFF the street LR60 Capt pay for one individual is 85K.. total b.s.

Perdiem is most likely to change to the JR policy. $36 measly dollars a day.

We were standardized in the LR60 with SOP's and profiles. But not will all of the other a/c.

36 a day sound nice to me, I'm tired of staying in sleezy hotels because the captain has a per diem fetish. How does a company get away with not inforcing standardization. SOP's and checklist have been written with blood, POI's should be all over that. I fly with 4 different people and I'm expected to fly the airlplane 4 different ways. I have asked once and they said its techniqe and should be left to the pilots discression. But its a safety issue, how can their be any discression about it? Am I out of line on this?

Like I have said earlier, If we go to jetrides pay, ot and per diem, the 2 weeks on/off pilots will probably break even, and the sprindale bassed crew will see a nice raise because we don't do a fraction of the overnights.

 

[starcheckdriver]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.....Jetride has standardization and SOPs when it comes to operationing procedures. We have a Policy Manual that contains 75 pages of SOPs aircraft operation, call-outs, and profiles for every phase of flight including emergencies.

We have a Standards Committee made up of several Captains that meet or have conference calls on a regular basis to develop SOPs and operating practices.

What JR lacks in the standards area is the pay across the board. Osy007 is right, some guys are paid more than others for no good reason. Based on his comments, I imagine osy is a 35 driver. 35 guys deserve the same pay as a 60 drive, IMHO. I have flown both. Sure the 60 is bigger, but the 35 requires more pilot input and is harder to fly. The MTOW are not much different. 35, 45, 55 and 60 series drivers should all be paid on the same scale. Larger than that may deserve more pay.

But, before we go knocking a lack of SOPs, go to Teamworks and take a look at the Policy Manual. All the SOPs are there and we should give the Standards Committee a thumbs up for a job well done on getting us to this point with the SOPs and flight profiles.

 

[starcheckdriver]

36 a day sound nice to me, I'm tired of staying in sleezy hotels because the captain has a per diem fetish. .

Finally, a Pinnacle pilot can see the other point-of-view on this issue. This was the main reason Jetride didn't switch to Pinnacle's system right away. There were too many concerns raised about where the pilot's would be saying and having the crew members spilt between two hotels.

 

[macpilot]

Being that we are such a big company now, maybe we could negotiate our own rate with Hampton inn or a nice hotel like that. 141 should more than cover it and food.

What I'm saying is that the PA per diem system works well, but there are people who abuse it, and that needs to be stopped.

 

[CFI4LIFE]

I second what starcheckdriver says, we DO have SOP's and it is up to the crews to follow them! I have flown with several other pilots, and while there where some minor differences, it was all very standardized.

As far as pay and OT go, I agree the pay scale should not be all over the place, and if for some dumb reason we adopt the Pinnacle way of covering OT I, and others, will walk without hesitation! I disagree with you starcheck on one point, if I work extra I want the compensation, not the extra days off.

I think Wynn has a pretty good handle on things and will look out for the pilots like he always has. He knows that we have a lot of control over things and happy pilots are happy emplyees.

 

[Rokit88]

NO NO NO!!!

If I'm am in your employ, flying a 9 million dollar jet, you(the company) can spring for a hotel. I'm not expecting to stay at the W or the Ritz, but somplace that I feel safe in and wont catch anything from the sheets.

Crew Cohesion is an important part of this equasion. Hanging out with your crew member makes you a better team and, I believe, ultimatly makes you safer.

 

[starcheckdriver]

I disagree with you starcheck on one point, if I work extra I want the compensation, not the extra days off.

I agree. I want the money too. My point was that some type of compensation needs to be provided. The notion that a pilot (or any employee for that matter) should work a day off with no compensation is absurd. And some guys are okay with taking extra days off rather than extra pay. I am not one of them. I value money more than time off; other value time off more than money.

 

[starcheckdriver]

3. A REAL seniority list that works when bidding on available positions.
The current system stinks of ca-ca-pookie.

4. FAC commitee--LOL.....one that would work..

I think that this should keep the thread going....

What's wrong with the current bid system? I am not in disagreement with you, just curious as to your thoughts on what could be better?

For the PA guys....FAC stands for Flight Advisory Committee. It is a group of pilots who act as a liason and a voice for the pilot group to management on a continuing basis (at Airnet is was one meeting a quarter).

 

[macpilot]

Does JR have it's own FAC? if so how can we get in touch with them?

 

[starcheckdriver]

Does JR have it's own FAC? if so how can we get in touch with them?

No, we do not. Airnet had one for the freight side only. I think we should petition the management and get one started. Any thoughts?

 

[Rake]

I agree with the FAC. Also we need a climate survey that everyone fills out "in the blind" (no one is targeted for their opinion) so that management can have an idea of what to improve on and what's working. We did these every qtr in the military.

 

[TigerDriver]

agree with the FAC. Also we need a climate survey that everyone fills out "in the blind" (no one is targeted for their opinion) so that management can have an idea of what to improve on and what's working. We did these every qtr in the military.

I totally agree, we can start with pay, yup I said it. In my humble opinion, with the exception of the Gulfstreams, no SIC should be making more than a captain. PIC = more responsibility= more cash. The system as it is now does not provide an atmosphere for advancement.

 

[TigerDriver]

and by pay I mean raise it, no one's pay should go down.

 

[TigerDriver]

and oh yeah, FU&* all you arkanas **************************************** out there

 

[MNR]

We have had a way to give input to management in the form of a good idea box, basicly an electronic box that you can input idea, concerns or other things you would like management to review. I would guess that once the new combined Jetride teamworks site is up you will see something similar. It has worked in the past. They changed intl. call outs from 2 hours to 4 hours because of suggestion I made.

As we grow we may need some for of formal "FAC" type group. If enough of us put it in a e-mail to Wynn it may be considered.

Ditto on the pay scales they definately need a tweek. I too would like to know what I can expect to make if I stay in the 60 for x number of years vs. upgradeing to a bigger aircraft and suitcase. Walt mentioned something to me about some form of scale that was scaled to time in service as well as time in type.

Various members of the standards committee are working on a more efficient checklist for the 60, standard profiles for the 35's and the Gulfstreams as well as some other projects. Up until this point the Citation 7 was flown by non company pilots so it wasen't something we were going to standardize. Hopefully the 35 SOPs will be uable for the 31s as well. SOP however are cirtificate specific so you can't just up and use them on the PA cirt. I'm sure you could distribute it and get it up and running realitively quickly however.

I think we are going to see a shift to the PA way of doing per diem. They just didn't do it Oct 1st because the policy statements were not in place. i.e. when does Jetride pick up the tab for the hotel because its too expensive, what happens on the last day of a multiple day trip, your paid just the meal rate but is it high or low etc. There were all sorts of questions coming into Walt and Wynn that made them stiop and say we are just not ready to make the switch.

Thats all the new stuff I have head lately.

 

[macpilot]

There will be another conferance call on friday at 1400 est. we should bring it up then (climate survey and FAC). Maybe someone with JR who knows Wynn well should be the one to bring it up, and then the rest of us can jump in and say we agree.

 

[osy007]

What's wrong with the current bid system? I am not in disagreement with you, just curious as to your thoughts on what could be better?

I have lost bids to people that have been WAYYY behind me on the seniority.
They think that the 35 is a cessna 152 when it comes to other aircraft.


I lost out on the G3/G4 pic/sic spot to people that were lower on the seniority list. My opinion, though, is based on a touch of soreness on this one, but I'll get over it. I just feel that the seniority is numero uno when it comes to awarding a bid.

The current selection process goes accordingly...
1. Base---If you are based where a plane is added. You have first dibs. I heard this from the DO directly at a meeting.
2. Similar experience in type
3. Seniority number
4. Past work history--goofups etc..

But, Im a lifer and would like to eventually get the hell out of the 35. I like it , but 5 years is way too long. Get me outta this thing pleaaaaseeee.
I just want to see uniformity with the payscale and the selection process with the bid system.