Pilots in the job market--

[pilotyip]

I have nothing against what the NJ pilots got in their contract. But any remainder of the reality of this business is immediately attacked as someone who is anti NJ, anti pilot and not pulling for the brotherhood. Pilot salaries and unproductive work rules helped do the BK carriers in, they complete against lower cost carriers, they loose market share, revenue goes down, fixed costs do not go down. Airlines are such low margin operations to start with that small swing in revenue puts tremendous pressure on the bottom line. Take for example the UAL contract of 2000, not only top salaries, but also the most unproductive pilots in the industry. Source McGraw Hill Airline Business Statistics, the average pilot flew 38 hours per month was paid for around 80, that meant UAL had a productive ratio of under 50%, SWA runs close to 78% and JB was running around 83%. UAL management did not enter into that contract because they knew it would good for the company, they entered it to prevent a strike, which they knew would be disastrous. I know this will not be well received because this is a pilot board, but it reality as seen by industry publications. My concern is the same thing I saw at my former airlines, the pilots figured the airline would ever go out of business. Although NJ is not an airline there are similarities All I am saying is there are no guarantees in this business, and only time will tell if NJ grows in the next 5 years or stagnates. My opinion only you not have to agree.

 

[FLYLOW22]

My comments are regarding unions in general in light of how this thread started. The fact is historically unions are not quick to the move to give back anything or to take actions that mitigate what may be major outside events that changed the nature of the marketplace.
You are in the fractional business so let me use that as an example. It changed the nature of corporate aviation. It was a significant event and it was for the good of aircraft manufacturers. See sometimes these events can be positive. Airline deregulation may have hurt wages but it sure increased the number of paid pilots around.
Health care and the other benefits are part of the equation but again, the problems come when a business cannot sustain a growth rate or an outside event takes away the ability to progress. Shrinking companies have problems dealing with obligations from better times.
When 9/11 came, my magazine was almost an instant fatality and that meant the 7 people we employed were out of jobs. Our suppliers and vendors were out money and a future job. An outside event killed it. While we could take less pay, the fact is that things like health care cost and benefits stayed the same.
From some views, NJA was actually benefited by the same event. The resultant security and unpleasant nature of commercial aviation combined with the fractional ownership alternative was attractive. Let's face it, no one comes to NJA because they have some great pilots. Is a good pilot corp something needed, yes. On the other hand, it was the marketing genius of the brothers that made this work, not pilots. It is that concept and genius which fills the coffers you feel you are so entitled to.

SMELI... Stop stroking yourself for just a minute.

I'm not concerned with the history of Unions and how they have or have not reacted (according to you). Unions react to the stimulus provided to them by management. If that stimulus is negative then why the hell would you look for a positive response from a group consistently kicked in the head and treated like widgets.

Also, I beg to differ regarding hte wonderful twins you speak of who we should worship by the rise and fall of the sun.

Their wonderful idea would have been nothing but a concept on the shelf without labor to make it happen. I am grateful for the idea. They should be grateful for the workers making it happen. They are not and that is a problem but it's not a big enough problem to rain on our parade. We have careers to pursue and mouths to feed. At this point, if they don;t want to pay us what the market must bear then the Brothers Oracle can fly the rigs around.

 

[FLYLOW22]

DO-28, I am sure the UAL pilots felt the same way back in 2000, "Show me the money". That was followed by the cry of "Max Pay to the last Day", followed by on the last day a 35% pay cut which was better than unemployment. Rich people have lots of money, and that is good for you, just like it was when all the rich people flew first class on UAL. The first class passengers found a lower priced product and moved their flying to that airline or frac. If NJ gets to be out of line with running your own flight department or contracting with another frac operator, growth may slow down at NJ. I wish you and your brothers and sisters at NJ the best, but reality and history show this is not a sure thing. Only time will tell.

Ok. I'll say this one more time. Stop correlating (I know big word) between 121 (which is broken) and the fracionals. There is no comparison except we are in the air transport industry.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Although NJ is not an airline there are similarities All I am saying is there are no guarantees in this business, and only time will tell if NJ grows in the next 5 years or stagnates. My opinion only you not have to agree.

If we furlough or take paycuts then I will buy drinks. You can count on that.

It's a bet.

That's how wrong I think you are and I'm a cheap ass.

 

[pilotyip]

beers are cheap and I like to drink them so you are on, See you at the Wedge in five years and I don't care who buys. It is a classic Belleville watering hole

 

[gunfyter]

I'll bet I don't get furloughed. For once I am near the top of the list.

 

[FLYLOW22]

beers are cheap and I like to drink them so you are on, See you at the Wedge in five years and I don't care who buys. It is a classic Belleville watering hole

Sounds fair enough but me thinks I'm on the front edge of the wave for once on this one. Far too many times I was too late for the wave and ended up in the reef. I know what it feels like to reef and this ain't it.

Oh well... it's an endless summer.

 

[netjetwife]

182....216

How productive are NJ pilots? Is the company getting good value for the cost of pilots' salaries? The 7&7 schedule is based on 182 working days a year and the reserve schedule is 216 days. The pilots can be required to work 14 hour days and many routinely average 10-12 hr days.

Pilotyip this is the fractional section of the board. If you want to be helpful, please post the productivity figures for the fractional companies. The reality is that bad things can happen unexpectedly to businesses--or families. Worry about the future is a reason for insisting on professional wages, NOT an acceptable excuse for being underpaid. When pilots are paid fairly they are able to save for a rainy day. They and their families shouldn't have to live "hand to mouth" because management can't run the company efficiently. The examples of waste still continue to be posted on the NJ pilots' board, in spite of the increased cost in pilot salaries. Apparently the pilots are more concerned with the waste they see than those in charge. I hardly think the sky is falling because the overworked/underpaid pilots of NJA finally got a long overdue pay raise!
NJW

 

[pilotyip]

I am just sharing my experiences in my flying career. I have faced unemployment many times, I get nervous anytime anything changes that might lead to unemployment. Customers drive the business, not pilots, unions, management. I would be nervous if I worked at NJ right now. I am just sharing my thoughts. No ill will, believe me I hope it all works out. I also feel there is nothing unique about the ability to fly an airplane it is a universal skill for anyone who desires to pursue a flying career, and pilots skills are easily interchangeable within the professional pilots ranks. That makes me nervous too, because it also leads to unemployment. Am I going to be banned from the Frac board?

 

[FLYLOW22]

I am just sharing my experiences in my flying career. I have faced unemployment many times, I get nervous anytime anything changes that might lead to unemployment. Customers drive the business, not pilots, unions, management. I would be nervous if I worked at NJ right now. I am just sharing my thoughts. No ill will, believe me I hope it all works out. I also feel there is nothing unique about the ability to fly an airplane it is a universal skill for anyone who desires to pursue a flying career, and pilots skills are easily interchangeable within the professional pilots ranks. That makes me nervous too, because it also leads to unemployment. Am I going to be banned from the Frac board?

No... you are not banned brother, but maybe you will catch on to a few things many of us have posted throughout our time here that are pretty self-evident.

1. The best Unions are merely reactionary to the stimulus provided by management. We never claimed to, as a Union group, drive the industry as a primary driving factor. I think that NJ pilots DID drive the industry average payrates higher though. Look at what CS did with their pay. As a result, FLO can't pay their pilots the new industry averages and that will affect their recruitment and retention of pilots and ultimately their service ability to theri Owners. Then, by your system of measure, the Owners (or customer) will vote with thier feet and go somewhere else. NJ management knew this would be a positive effect of payraises for NJA pilots.

2. Please stop getting nervous any time something changes. Especially in aviation. NOTHING, absolutely nothing stays the same. Ever. Nature abhors a vaccuum.

3. I had been furloughed 4 times by the time I was 26 in this business. All 4 times I can firmly blame it as a result of perpertual BAD MANAGEMENT.

I won't go into detail here. Please feel free to read all of my posts I've ever made if you care to and you will get the jist.

We are not nervous friend. At first were were "fearful". Then some were "prepared". Now we are just a Strong Union that does it's best to plot a course for our members that is fair becasue we lack a managaement team that was able to do that without us as training wheels. NJ management knows fully well that they have all the latitude in the world, short of screwing us outside the provisions of the CBA to do whatever they want in the Frax biz.

 

[Hawkered]

The fact that Netjets is the only place paying a proper wage in the fractional industry, not to mention the signing bonus, could mean the very end for Options and Flexjet. An employers inability to pay a competitive wage and compete for the best employees will only lead to a degrading of the service through low morale and high employee turnover.

For those of you who ask whether Netjets will survive on thes "high" salaries, I oppose you by asking the question, "Who can afford to not pay these salaries?"

 

[gunfyter]

Pilot salaries vs cost per hour to fly a Citation X.

These are rough estimates cause i dont have the exact figures handy.

A X Captain making 100K and flying 650 hours per yr.

100 K / 650 = $153/ hr.

How does this compare to the other costs of flying the X to the Owner?

Fuel @ $3.50 / gallon. Fuel flow 2000 lbs per hour minimum.

$1075 / hr for fuel.

$2000/ hr hourly fees

$1600 / hr monthly management fees.

Aquisition costs = Big money.

Not including aquisition costs $4700 per hr of which only $153 is for the pilot. prior to our new contract maybe it was $100 per hr.

For $53 per hour difference will I lose my Job? I do not think so.

Remember Marquis pax pay OVER $8000 per hour to fly the X. only $153 goes to the pilot. LESS THAN 2% GOES TO THE PILOT! Our $50/hr raise is covered by a 6/10ths of 1% increase in costs to Owners! NJA raises fees 3.5% every yr.

My pay could double to $200K per yr and not stop anyone from flying on the X.

 

[Publishers]

No one is saying the pilots should not have received a raise or that they have no value to the organization. It is a necessary part of the product offer. The discussion revolves around the unique nature of the product that RTS came up with. The nature of the beast is that it comes with an extremely high operational cost to the concept.
The use of 121 examples is not particularly valid but then neither is the NBAA example. This is different. In the end, as with airlines, it is the total cost not just pilot cost that will keep NJ in business or not. As the value of the aircraft themselves play such a significant role in the picture, it will take more years to really see if it can work day in and day out for the people it has to work for in order for the company to see growth.
I have been at this long enough to see the many dimensions. I have no crystal ball. I do know that a business executive who might well be close enough to know said the other day that NJA was the one business that Buffett thinks he should have skipped buying. Only time will tell.

 

[Fozzy]

"Only time will tell"

I am willing to bet NJA will be around far longer than WB will be. So I doubt he will ever feel that way.

Anyone want to take that bet?

 

[Turbinehead]

WHo da mufug

Who the mufug stole my aviatrix avatar?

Was it you, Netjetwaife? Keep my aviatrix avatar out of your jihad.

 

[netjetwife]

Not me! I don't know how to attach an avatar, much less, steal one... Is Jihad destined to become the "J word" the same way that tipping became the "T word"? Will I have to keep saying...."Hey, I didn't mention it first, he did!"

MAY THE NEW YEAR BRING A NEW BEGINNING FOR ALL FRACTIONAL PILOTS

 

[netjetwife]

My husband helped me out with an avatar--his choice. He thought it would be "hilarious" in light of the accusation that I'm leading a Jihad. The photo was taken during our remote assignment in Egypt. The boys and I joined my husband--non-command sponsored. We lived in a walled compound on an Egyptian airbase. It was a fascinating experience. In my belief for standing up for one's rights, I refused to cover my hair. I challenged their way of thinking and proved that wearing your hair loose doesn't mean you're a "loose" woman. At Peace Vector 3 the motto was "small victories". We all realized that cultural differences are often hard to overcome. Was it a personal Jihad to stand up for the rights of women? You could say that. We can also say that it is a Jihad --struggle for what is right--for frac pilots to demand professional wages. Small victories...first a card drive...then a vote...can lead to big wins...a strong union that fights for its members to be treated respectfully and professionally. Thinking of a Jihad in the true definition of the word, who could be against it?
Challenging the status quo,
Netjetwife

 

[Turbinehead]

I love it baby

My husband helped me out with an avatar--his choice. He thought it would be "hilarious" in light of the accusation that I'm leading a Jihad. The photo was taken during our remote assignment in Egypt. The boys and I joined my husband--non-command sponsored. We lived in a walled compound on an Egyptian airbase. It was a fascinating experience. In my belief for standing up for one's rights, I refused to cover my hair. I challenged their way of thinking and proved that wearing your hair loose doesn't mean you're a "loose" woman. At Peace Vector 3 the motto was "small victories". We all realized that cultural differences are often hard to overcome. Was it a personal Jihad to stand up for the rights of women? You could say that. We can also say that it is a Jihad --struggle for what is right--for frac pilots to demand professional wages. Small victories...first a card drive...then a vote...can lead to big wins...a strong union that fights for its members to be treated respectfully and professionally. Thinking of a Jihad in the true definition of the word, who could be against it?
Challenging the status quo,
Netjetwife

I love it baby very stylish ride.

By the way, which one are you in the picture? It must be very difficult carrying everyone on your back.

Did that camel belong to a Strong Union and what were her work rules that day I wonder. Fair representation or out there on her own poor little dromedary. Shame on you for using a non-union cameljocky.

 

[Publishers]

I know one thing-- the management of the camel was trying to take the business down so they could leave with a big golden parachute. They ran the camel into the ground selling rides to Americans over at the air base until he broke down. Without proper medical and dental, he ended up homeless and living off the courtesy and good will of locals.

 

[Turbinehead]

Speaking of the T word

Not me! I don't know how to attach an avatar, much less, steal one... Is Jihad destined to become the "J word" the same way that tipping became the "T word"? Will I have to keep saying...."Hey, I didn't mention it first, he did!"

MAY THE NEW YEAR BRING A NEW BEGINNING FOR ALL FRACTIONAL PILOTS

Now that you mentioned the T word, what did you tip that poor nonunion Cameljocky. Should have been much extra due to Camel over MTOW!

Wait did i just make a funny there......camel mTOW? Muahaha.

I crack mythelf up.