Pilots in the job market--

[Publishers]

The thing always lost in these arguments is that airlines or fractionals do not exist for the pilots to have careers or even any other employees. Furthermore they do not exist for management types. They exist so owners can profit, that simple. Managers that succeed usually are rewarded more than those who fail. Again, pretty simple. It does not usuall set well for managers to run companies into the ground.

The fact is that a product is sold at a margin the customers will purchase it. Management tries to come up with a plan, a product, a system that will allow it to make money for the owners.

If they cannot do that, they fail. Normally that means the employees are sent home and they have to go seek new employment. If the company succeeds, then the company usually keeps going, employees and management stay employed.

 

[netjetwife]

I think you're putting a negative spin on Flylow's post, Mr. Otoole, that isn't warranted. Now that the labor dispute is behind them the company and the union are free to concentrate on the formula that makes them the largest fractional company. That NJA believes they must be doing something right due to their lead in the industry comes across to their employees. Are they confident or complacent? Based on how hard both sides are working to implement the new contract and focus on improvements in other areas, I don't think your dire warnings are justified.

 

[FLYLOW22]

A big ego, indeed. From a pure competitive standpoint, you had better hope management and sales are losing sleep looking at the other guys. Just looking at aircraft, unless your prospects don't care about what aircraft they purchase, the landscape is VERY competitive across the industry.
CJ3 vs. LR40XR vs. 400XP
Sovereign vs. CL300 vs. G200 vs. CX
DA2000 vs. DA2000EX vs. CL604
With the large jets being a draw, it seems to me that NJA clearly doesn't have a superior competitive aircraft, some in fact inferior by many standards. I sure hope your service is far superior.
I personally would be a bit nervous if my management team told me they don't even consider the competition. Heck, Michael Dell is famous for worrying about his companies competiton-and look at the market share they command. I can't imagine him telling his team that he doesn't even consider the competition. A huge ego upstairs, indeed. That alone would make me nervous.

Ok. Please forward your concerns to someone who can do something about it at NJA. They don't listen to us.

 

[FLYLOW22]

More RUFM diatribe from ALLAnetjetwife.

Don't know what RUFM is: newly coined phrase by one of your own...

FLYLOW22 said:

We like to call it the URFM pal!


Unionistic radical fundamentalism at work. RUFM up, Netjetwife!

Dude. I am sorry and must apologize. I was trying to be a bit sarcastic mixed with humor. On top of that I used far too many letters for you to follow. In addition, you missed where I came up with the phrase altogether. I have a trifecta!!!

In point of fact it was you, WheresRocky, who came up with the "newly coined phrase" URFM. I am puzzled why you inaccurately described it as RUFM.

Take authorship Rocky.

Is that how you like it; RUFM?

 

[FLYLOW22]

I think you're putting a negative spin on Flylow's post, Mr. Otoole, that isn't warranted.

What a Toole... hehehe.

 

[netjetwife]

Good one, FlyLow! You guys can get away with that stuff. I just get called a terrorist.

 

[cosmotheassman]

Hawkxp,
"I want to show management that we as pilots are not going to take this anymore."

Yeah that's like cutting your own foot off because it went to sleep. That will teach that foot a lesson.

You think delta management has run the company into the ground? You mean to tell me that you never took advantage of any of the loopholes to make yourself extra money?? That's all I have ever heard from a delta pilot; how they could make double money doing certain trips overseas etc... Well let me tell you that I believe the pilots have had their equal share in running delta into the ground if you ask me. The problem with Delta is that there are too many pilots running the show in management. Pilots need to stay in airplanes, not behind desks.

 

[netjetwife]

I think pilots and management need to work together to find solutions that are fair and will ensure the viability of the company. That means wages that are fair and work rules that are sustainable while being productive. Smart managers treat the labor force like people not machines. NJ pilots want a career not just a stepping-stone job. Standing up for your rights doesn't mean refusing to listen to valid points. The new contract closes loopholes while increasing pay. Doing the right thing for all concerned is possible when leaders set aside egos and focus on solving problems. Having a strong union and a strong company are not mutually exclusive.

 

[SeaSpray]

Having a strong union and a strong company are not mutually exclusive.

Really? Name a strong company in the private sector with a strong union and a strong bottom line. It's worked so well for GM, Ford, US Steel, Delta, US Air, United, American, Northwest, TWA, Eastern, Braniff, and PanAm.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Really? Name a strong company in the private sector with a strong union and a strong bottom line. It's worked so well for GM, Ford, US Steel, Delta, US Air, United, American, Northwest, TWA, Eastern, Braniff, and PanAm.

How about Southwest and their pilots' union: SWAPA? If you want to learn more, try this link: http://www.swapa.org/Mission.htm

 

[miles otoole]

How about Southwest and their pilots' union: SWAPA? If you want to learn more, try this link: http://www.swapa.org/Mission.htm

Yes, but the big difference is that the management at WN respects us pilots, not to mention the fact that WN is profitable. Do you really think BB or RMS would even slow down if they saw a bunch of NJA pilots crossing the street? They were forced into what they gave you and they won't forget it. If you don't think as much, you're delusional.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Yes, but the big difference is that the management at WN respects us pilots, not to mention the fact that WN is profitable. Do you really think BB or RMS would even slow down if they saw a bunch of NJA pilots crossing the street? They were forced into what they gave you and they won't forget it. If you don't think as much, you're delusional.

Geez Otoole, why the vitriol? SeaSpary simply asked for someone to name a strong company with a strong union. Though I don't fly for SWA, there does seem to be cooperation between the pilots' union and company management. And SWA has been profitable for some time. That's all I was bringing to SeaSpray's attention.

So what was the basis for your invective response? And who is "RMS" that you refer to in your post?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Hawkxp,
"I want to show management that we as pilots are not going to take this anymore."

Yeah that's like cutting your own foot off because it went to sleep. That will teach that foot a lesson.

You think delta management has run the company into the ground? You mean to tell me that you never took advantage of any of the loopholes to make yourself extra money?? That's all I have ever heard from a delta pilot; how they could make double money doing certain trips overseas etc... Well let me tell you that I believe the pilots have had their equal share in running delta into the ground if you ask me. The problem with Delta is that there are too many pilots running the show in management. Pilots need to stay in airplanes, not behind desks.

Yur kidding right. All, I think Cosmo is kidding.

He can't be seriously comparing pilots who are only allowed to perform and get paid in accordance with their current CBA that they negotiated to management who does what they want, when they want in accordance with the contract... or not depending on their needs.

Labor Example. A Delta pilot a gets paid double time for flying JFK to Toyko as a required pilot and as part of the contract he gets paid trip rig override, duty rig override, over water override, international override, night override etc. If you add all of that up, the pilot may have made quite a premium over another Delta MD-11 flying from JFK to LAX. How in blue blazes is that poaching the management and looking for loopholes? Seniority is the thing that allows a pilot to bid a trip that is fat with OT whether domestic or international. Period. They have no say otherwise. Pilots do the leg work on their own to creatively put trips together that work legally so as to maximize cash intake. The pilot is taking advantage of his seniority and not of the company which had a fair chance to negotiate the payrates in that contract. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you think there is then you sir are high.

management example. Irrationally following failed merger attempts and running companies on a day-by-day "who cares about tomorrow" mantra. When the contract is no longer desirable to follow they simply file for Chapter 11 and flush the contract down the toilet after wiping their ass with it... That's a lot of paper... big A-holes though. While in Chapter 11 management comes back for more concessions not once but 3 times. They sc oop every single bit of ice cream out until all that's left over is the sugar cone it came in... and they take a bite of that too. Oh yeah! "We can afford to pay for your retirement anymore." That one is my ABSOLUTE favorite!! Guys and gals with decades of loyal service to the company are now retired, too old to do 121 flying and relying on their hard-earned pension. GONE! Management... well it takes 4 CEOs to get this much labor smashing done. Each had their own distinctively unique and lucrative golden parachute so at least they are ok. Oh wait! I just described US Airways.

How the hell do you compare management to labor in this way?

 

[FLYLOW22]

And who is "RMS" that you refer to in your post?

Everyone knows that it should be Richard Tiberius Santulli.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Everyone knows that it should be Richard Tiberius Santulli.

I agree - I just wanted to see if Otoole could figure it out. "RTS" = Richard T. Santulli. "RMS", on the other hand, I believe is "Root Mean Square": http://searchsmb.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid44_gci213722,00.html