Pilots in the job market--

[miles otoole]

How about Southwest and their pilots' union: SWAPA? If you want to learn more, try this link: http://www.swapa.org/Mission.htm

Yes, but the big difference is that the management at WN respects us pilots, not to mention the fact that WN is profitable. Do you really think BB or RMS would even slow down if they saw a bunch of NJA pilots crossing the street? They were forced into what they gave you and they won't forget it. If you don't think as much, you're delusional.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Yes, but the big difference is that the management at WN respects us pilots, not to mention the fact that WN is profitable. Do you really think BB or RMS would even slow down if they saw a bunch of NJA pilots crossing the street? They were forced into what they gave you and they won't forget it. If you don't think as much, you're delusional.

Geez Otoole, why the vitriol? SeaSpary simply asked for someone to name a strong company with a strong union. Though I don't fly for SWA, there does seem to be cooperation between the pilots' union and company management. And SWA has been profitable for some time. That's all I was bringing to SeaSpray's attention.

So what was the basis for your invective response? And who is "RMS" that you refer to in your post?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Hawkxp,
"I want to show management that we as pilots are not going to take this anymore."

Yeah that's like cutting your own foot off because it went to sleep. That will teach that foot a lesson.

You think delta management has run the company into the ground? You mean to tell me that you never took advantage of any of the loopholes to make yourself extra money?? That's all I have ever heard from a delta pilot; how they could make double money doing certain trips overseas etc... Well let me tell you that I believe the pilots have had their equal share in running delta into the ground if you ask me. The problem with Delta is that there are too many pilots running the show in management. Pilots need to stay in airplanes, not behind desks.

Yur kidding right. All, I think Cosmo is kidding.

He can't be seriously comparing pilots who are only allowed to perform and get paid in accordance with their current CBA that they negotiated to management who does what they want, when they want in accordance with the contract... or not depending on their needs.

Labor Example. A Delta pilot a gets paid double time for flying JFK to Toyko as a required pilot and as part of the contract he gets paid trip rig override, duty rig override, over water override, international override, night override etc. If you add all of that up, the pilot may have made quite a premium over another Delta MD-11 flying from JFK to LAX. How in blue blazes is that poaching the management and looking for loopholes? Seniority is the thing that allows a pilot to bid a trip that is fat with OT whether domestic or international. Period. They have no say otherwise. Pilots do the leg work on their own to creatively put trips together that work legally so as to maximize cash intake. The pilot is taking advantage of his seniority and not of the company which had a fair chance to negotiate the payrates in that contract. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you think there is then you sir are high.

management example. Irrationally following failed merger attempts and running companies on a day-by-day "who cares about tomorrow" mantra. When the contract is no longer desirable to follow they simply file for Chapter 11 and flush the contract down the toilet after wiping their ass with it... That's a lot of paper... big A-holes though. While in Chapter 11 management comes back for more concessions not once but 3 times. They sc oop every single bit of ice cream out until all that's left over is the sugar cone it came in... and they take a bite of that too. Oh yeah! "We can afford to pay for your retirement anymore." That one is my ABSOLUTE favorite!! Guys and gals with decades of loyal service to the company are now retired, too old to do 121 flying and relying on their hard-earned pension. GONE! Management... well it takes 4 CEOs to get this much labor smashing done. Each had their own distinctively unique and lucrative golden parachute so at least they are ok. Oh wait! I just described US Airways.

How the hell do you compare management to labor in this way?

 

[FLYLOW22]

And who is "RMS" that you refer to in your post?

Everyone knows that it should be Richard Tiberius Santulli.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Everyone knows that it should be Richard Tiberius Santulli.

I agree - I just wanted to see if Otoole could figure it out. "RTS" = Richard T. Santulli. "RMS", on the other hand, I believe is "Root Mean Square": http://searchsmb.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid44_gci213722,00.html

 

[SeaSpray]

How about Southwest and their pilots' union: SWAPA? If you want to learn more, try this link: http://www.swapa.org/Mission.htm

You can't compare the Southwest Airlines Pilot's Association, a non-profit organization of Southwest pilots formed by Southwest pilots, which works with management to increase operating efficiencies, to the very much for profit International Brotherhood of Teamsters with their history of involvment with organized crime, corrupt leadership, forcing companies out of business, and prosecution under the RICO Act.

Virtually all Teamster's presidents have been indicted or gone to prison: Ron Carey, Jackie Pressor, Roy Williams, Frank Fitzsimmons, Jimmie Hoffa, Daniel Tobin, David Beck, and Farrell Dobbs.

James P. Hoffa has found a new way to raid the union coffers (Daddy did the Pension Fund), according to the Chicago Tribune:

"In the five years since Hoffa took over the union's leadership, the overall compensation for Teamsters officials earning $100,000 a year or more has grown by 125 percent...

The number of Teamsters officials earning $100,000 or more yearly has grown by 66 percent during that period..."





`

 

[SeaSpray]

By the way, I don't think 1108's famed "Shut the Trucker Down (STFD)" mantra is a part of SWAPA's negotiating vocabulary. Their contract is up for renewal in 2006, we'll see if they follow your lead.

 

[netjetwife]

It isn't necessary for SWA pilots to fight that hard as they are treated respectfully and paid professionally to begin with. Had those same pilots been at NJ for the last 4 years, I have no doubt that some of them would have grown just as frustrated and fed-up with the foot-dragging and broken promises the NJ pilots had to deal with. Likewise, had the NJA management acted like the leadership of SWA, the pilots could have used a more moderate vocabulary.

 

[pilotyip]

Time will tell if this is the contract that redefines the industry or sinks a separate company. Remember the UAL pilots with their industry leading contract back in 2000 that gave 50% raise over 5 years, or my experience at Zantop where a lot of pilots thought the guaranteed raise each year in the contract would go on for ever. The date of the first raise the company elected to close the doors instead of paying the raise. Only time will tell.

 

[SeaSpray]

It isn't necessary for SWA pilots to fight that hard as they are treated respectfully and paid professionally to begin with. Had those same pilots been at NJ for the last 4 years, I have no doubt that some of them would have grown just as frustrated and fed-up with the foot-dragging and broken promises the NJ pilots had to deal with. Likewise, had the NJA management acted like the leadership of SWA, the pilots could have used a more moderate vocabulary.

I don't think you know very much about the Southwest pilot's contract or their corporate culture.

There is no common ground to compare the thuggish Local 1108 to SWAPA.

In 1994, management seeing the dangers of the hard salaries offered by the mainline carriers, offered something different to their pilots. Herb offered them a 10 year contract with a pay freeze for 5 years to be offset by stock options, bonuses and profit sharing based on company profitability.

The pilots went for it. It's a self adjusting contract - when times are lean and there are no profits there is no profit sharing and stock options aren't a hard cost, this allows the company to adjust to market conditions.

It has worked out well for the pilots. Senior pilots got 10,000 shares with a strike price of $3.95 after four splits. Today, the value of those shares is about $850,000. In 2004, the pilots voted to extend the contract for another two years, in so doing receiving an average of about 9500 shares per pilot at a strike price of $12.84.

There was a collateral benefit to management which Herb probably anticipated when he offered this move away from traditional hard pay way back in 1994 - the pilots are heavily invested in the company and Southwest's success is their success. Thus the pilot's goals and management's goals are the same.

Subsequently, Southwest pilots would never push for a contract that had the potential to threaten their company's viability.

I'm not suggesting that this would work for Netjets as the company has never made a profit and Berkshire Hathaway stock has been losing value for 24 consecutive months, but a more cooperative and less self-serving attitude on the part of Local 1108 would go a long way in insuring the survival of NetJets.







`

 

[Guitar Guy]

You can't compare the Southwest Airlines Pilot's Association, a non-profit organization of Southwest pilots formed by Southwest pilots, which works with management to increase operating efficiencies, to the very much for profit International Brotherhood of Teamsters with their history of involvment with organized crime, corrupt leadership, forcing companies out of business, and prosecution under the RICO Act.

This is the mission statement from the SWAPA site I referenced:





Our Mission is to provide a secure and rewarding career for our pilots and their families by:
[FONT=times new roman, Times New Roman, Times]- Equitably enhancing compensation and quality of life issues through contract negotiations,



[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, Times New Roman, Times]

- Faithfully defending individual and collective contractual rights via administration and enforcement procedures, and ​

[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, Times New Roman, Times]
- Actively promoting professionalism and safety through effective organizational communications.









[/FONT]


Sounds like some of the very items that 1108 pursues for NetJets pilots.

 

[netjetwife]

My knowledge of SWA comes from pilots that we know (mostly former AF) who have been flying there for years. Your post just reiterated my point that the pilots of SWA are treated respectfully--like the professionals they are--and their contribution to the company is recognized and rewarded. They helped to grow the company--NJ pilots have done the same. SW rewarded their pilots and made them partners. NJ exploited their pilots and made them adversaries. The NJ pilots weren't given financial incentives; they got broken promises instead. They should have been flying from home years ago like NJI--to name just one example. The pilots could give you others--fair wages being at the top of the list. The SWA story of success could be applied to any company and its workers. The carrot approach works better than the stick. Well treated/compensated employees are motivated to go the extra mile.

With a telling result, during negotiations 1108 offered a pay proposal that had built-in adjustments based on the number of pilots employed. It would have given pilots more money as the company grew and automatically trimmed salaries back during lean times. Management wasn't interested. When comparing NJ to SW, I don't see a difference in the pilots that I know at each company. However, the differences in management style are obvious and significant.

As for profits, the company is a very lucrative business. The focus was on growth, not money in the bank. NJA profits were used to subsidize other NJ start-ups around the world. They admitted as much to the pilots when it was no longer possible to deny the truth. The money has always been there. The only thing lacking is Herb's approach to how pilots should be treated.

 

[miles otoole]

As for profits, the company is a very lucrative business. The focus was on growth, not money in the bank. NJA profits were used to subsidize other NJ start-ups around the world. They admitted as much to the pilots when it was no longer possible to deny the truth. The money has always been there. The only thing lacking is Herb's approach to how pilots should be treated.

SO is the money there or not? You say the profits were spent. Then you say they have the money. NJA is NOT profitable. WN is. WN spends its profits on growth, but is still profitable. You can't spend more money than you make and be profitable.

 

[netjetwife]

I'm suggesting that the other NJ companies around the world will need to stand on their own and stop relying on NJA to subsidize them. NetJets is a world wide company, even though we think only of NJA. Maybe NJ Scotland wouldn't have been started yet had they been paying the American pilots properly. Our pilots were rather tired of hearing how much better their European counterparts had it, while the money made on the backs of NJA pilots was used to keep NJE going until they became profitable. Perhaps other NJs (you can supply the names of the countries) around the world will not be started yet. Now that more of the money will be kept in America--where it belongs in the pilots' pockets--the rampant growth may slow down a bit. On the other hand, maybe not. It very well may be that there is enough money to pay the pilots better AND fund the start-up of other NJs. After all, our SU leaders were told that NJA had unlimited resources to fight the pilots. That told all of us that they had the money to pay the pilots fairly, as well. Management finally decided that it wasn't worth the hassle to keep holding onto the wages the pilot group had already earned. NJA pilots know that there wasn't a sudden change of heart at the top of the company. It's plain to anyone who has followed the dispute closely that the pilots had to fight hard for their new contract. Plans were underway to picket Wall Street and the busy holiday period was looming when the company finally got serious about working out a deal.

 

[GVFlyer]

I have Berkshire Hathaway B (BRK.B) in my portfolio. This is from their last stock holder report.

NetJets earned a modest amount in the U.S. last year. But what we earned domestically was largely offset by losses in Europe. We are now, however, generating real momentum abroad. Contracts (including 25-hour cards that we ourselves market in Europe) increased from 364 to 693 during the
year. We will again have a very significant European loss in 2005, but domestic earnings will likely put us in the black overall.

GV

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks, GV! I'll take that as reinforcement of my post. Furthermore, let's all keep in mind that "modest" to the wealthy is way above the pilot salaries --even with the new pay raise. The money has always been there; they just didn't want to share it. I doubt it's much different at the other fractional companies. The businesses have been built on the backs of the pilots. Time to be fair and pay them like the professionals they are. Pay raises are way overdue--across the industry. It made sense for the biggest pilot group to go first. At the risk of being labeled a terrorist, I'll suggest that now is the time for the rest of you to make the most of this opportunity.

Best of luck!
Netjetwife

PS My definition of Jihad, as it applies to frac pilots---

J ust standing up for their rights
I nsisting on fair treatment and pay
H olding out for what they have earned
A ll standing together, shoulder to shoulder
D emanding they be recognized as professionals

 

[semperfido]

I have Berkshire Hathaway B (BRK.B) in my portfolio.

OH to have a rich wife or belong to the lucky sperm club! Happy Festivus

 

[miles otoole]

OH to have a rich wife or belong to the lucky sperm club! Happy Festivus

why? 2 years ago it was $3,200 a share and is now $3,000.

 

[GEXDriver]

I have Berkshire Hathaway B (BRK.B) in my portfolio. This is from their last stock holder report.

NetJets earned a modest amount in the U.S. last year. But what we earned domestically was largely offset by losses in Europe. We are now, however, generating real momentum abroad. Contracts (including 25-hour cards that we ourselves market in Europe) increased from 364 to 693 during the
year. We will again have a very significant European loss in 2005, but domestic earnings will likely put us in the black overall.

GV

Thanks, GV! I'll take that as reinforcement of my post. Furthermore, let's all keep in mind that "modest" to the wealthy is way above the pilot salaries --even with the new pay raise. The money has always been there; they just didn't want to share it. I doubt it's much different at the other fractional companies. The businesses have been built on the backs of the pilots. Time to be fair and pay them like the professionals they are. Pay raises are way overdue--across the industry. It made sense for the biggest pilot group to go first. At the risk of being labeled a terrorist, I'll suggest that now is the time for the rest of you to make the most of this opportunity.

Best of luck!
Netjetwife

I don't see how any native English speaker could read GV's extract from the BK Stockholder Report and arrive at the conclusion that NetJets is awash in cash. It's clear from Buffet's statement that the he was just hoping that Netjets wouldn't lose anymore money in 2005.

By the way, NJW, I deleted the section of your post dealing with Jihad as I found it to be in extremely poor taste. There are many service families that are missing a mom or a dad this Christmas and maybe all future Christmases because of Jihad.


-30-

 

[netjetwife]

You jumped into the middle of the conversation---

GEXDriver, apparently you haven't read all of the other threads from the last few days. My mention of Jihad was an effort to turn a cruel, ugly post by WheresRocky into a more positive outlook. You must have missed his post.


RUFM up...Radical Union fundamentalist movement
"Netjetwife and others are involved in a full time JIHAD now. Evidence: 99% of their posts of late are spreading their radical pro-union stance....."


The regulars on this board know that we're a retired AF family and my husband , also, flew combat in Iraq. I offer support to our NJ pilots during their deployments. The connection you are making between my post and our military members is unfounded. The NJ pilots who were deployed still followed the contract battle closely and would understand the motivation behind my post.

My heart goes out to anyone missing a family member this Christmas. I know only too well what that is like. We have evil people in America, too.