Pilots in the job market--

[DO-82 driver]

Pilotyip,

I an sure that NJA is not going to fold based on what they are currently paying us, including the benefits. A 5yr Captain making 90K is not going to break the bank.

I'm not sure if the UAL analogy is a fair one to make in that the fractionals are nothing like the airlines. Fuel being directly passed on the the owners is one of the most glaring differences. Non-flexibilty is another. We don't incur the delays that the majors do in that we fly into and out of satellite airports mostly.

Many of the problems the major airline faced were due largely to the short-sightedness of their upper management. Bonuses were assured for most of them while the people in the trenches made peanuts.....and I was one of them making peanuts.

Time will tell..........and no responsible Union leadership will jeapordize the liveliood of their members. I know I'm in good hands with Strong Union and Local 1108. I think some of the other fractional pilots are going to discover that real soon.

 

[netjetwife]

The fact is historically unions are not quick to the move to give back anything or to take actions that mitigate what may be major outside events that changed the nature of the marketplace.

The airline pilots have certainly taken big pay cuts to help their companies--that has been documented in the news. I will maintain that the unions have been at least AS quick as management to "give back" something. We personally witnessed AA asking its pilots to give up part of their compensation package right after 9/11. When management was exposed for scrambling to secure their money,while calling for cuts (in pay and numbers) from the rank and file, they lost credibility with many pilots--my husband included.

When he joined NJA we gave a new set of managers the benefit of the doubt. We were rewarded with broken promises. NJ pilots are very cautiously working to form a new partnership with management, but trust has to be earned. Unions will react quicker when they can believe what the company leaders are telling them and when they see that sacrifice is expected by EVERYONE, not just the rank and file. Leading by example--like they do at SWA--is the best guarantee for the results you're looking for, Publishers. As DO-82 driver has pointed out, there are concrete ways that management can show the NJ pilots that they are serious about making positive changes that will improve the company and lead to greater profits for all to share. In the interest of giving credit where credit is due---NJA DOES make the most of their pilots' skills and experience in marketing the company. Furthermore, it IS the pilotforce that has the most interaction with the owners/pax and are on the front line in providing the excellent service that makes for satisfied clients that renew their contracts. Without THAT, the company would fold, regardless of how great the idea is that led to its conception.

Pilotyip, are you implying that NJ pilots are greedy?! If so, that is completely unfair. The pilots and their families lost a lot of (earned) money while the company drug out negotiations. They didn't pay the pilots real Retro, just a signing bonus that fell far short of what was owed. The pilots accepted a 5 yr contract when they preferred the 3 yr one they had previously. The FOs saw their pay improved, but it still isn't 60% of Captain pay--the industry standard. Had the NJ pilots wages kept pace with inflation all along, it wouldn't have been such a big jump to get where they should have been. Please stop worrying about the company. They made a lot of money while they were underpaying the pilots since 1998. The current contract can best be described as "decent" not good/great. Just because the pilots weren't told THIS time--you could have gotten more--doesn't mean that NJA can't easily afford to PAY PILOTS LIKE THE PROFESSIONALS THEY ARE!

Regards,
Netjetwife

 

[pilotyip]

Where did I say greedy? I have worked at union airlines where pilots thought the sky was the limit for pay, they are both out of business. I would not want that to happen to anyone else. I wished the NJ brothers and sisters the best and said only time will tell if this will last. Thanks goodness for military retirement it is all I have to show for my career.

 

[gunfyter]

Where did I say greedy? I have worked at union airlines where pilots thought the sky was the limit for pay, they are both out of business. I would not want that to happen to anyone else. I wished the NJ brothers and sisters the best and said only time will tell if this will last. Thanks goodness for military retirement it is all I have to show for my career.

And Pilot salaries are what did these carriers in?

I ask this because I remember seeing the losses posted by some airlines, and the salary concessions made by pilots. I do not now remember the exact numbers but

Losses of $2 Billion and 40% paycuts to save $500 million.

Which means 100% paycuts would only save 1.25 Billion.

So pilots working for FREE they still loses 750 million!

Those are not the numbers but I saw something like this concerning United a while back.


Oh those greedy pilot unions....

 

[netjetwife]

You're correct, Pilotyip, you didn't say the word "greedy. Nor did I say that you did. I was questioning the tone and implications of your post. Too many times I've heard airline pilots blamed for all the woes in a situation which had plenty of blame to go around, not to mention factors that were beyond the control of anyone. I wanted to know if that was what you were implying in your post about UAL.

I think enough time has passed to show that the Fractionals fulfill a need in the aviation market. The pilots continue to provide a product the customer feels is worth the price. The biggest problem I've seen that has the most potential to "rock the boat" is the card program. That can be blamed on greed but not by the union. Owners were/are getting upset but not at the pilots. I suggest that policies made by those at the top, rather than fair salaries for pilots, have the greatest likelihood of hurting a frac company.

DO-82 driver, I have also heard the complaints (justified, I'll add) about some on the management side that should be replaced. SU leaders are doing their best to bring problems to light and work with management to find solutions. There have been encouraging signs that some at the Puzzle Palace would like to foster better labor relations with the union. It is something to build on. Just look at how far the NJ pilot-group came in a year when SU took over and 1108 was formed. I do think the company is starting to realize that there are some very smart leaders/volunteers in SU that have a lot to offer--aside from flying airplanes. The implementation process is doing more than just get the contract put in place. It is showing both sides that they can work together on projects that benefit everyone. May the New Year bring new beginnings for NJ pilots and their peers in the other frac companies.

 

[pilotyip]

I have nothing against what the NJ pilots got in their contract. But any remainder of the reality of this business is immediately attacked as someone who is anti NJ, anti pilot and not pulling for the brotherhood. Pilot salaries and unproductive work rules helped do the BK carriers in, they complete against lower cost carriers, they loose market share, revenue goes down, fixed costs do not go down. Airlines are such low margin operations to start with that small swing in revenue puts tremendous pressure on the bottom line. Take for example the UAL contract of 2000, not only top salaries, but also the most unproductive pilots in the industry. Source McGraw Hill Airline Business Statistics, the average pilot flew 38 hours per month was paid for around 80, that meant UAL had a productive ratio of under 50%, SWA runs close to 78% and JB was running around 83%. UAL management did not enter into that contract because they knew it would good for the company, they entered it to prevent a strike, which they knew would be disastrous. I know this will not be well received because this is a pilot board, but it reality as seen by industry publications. My concern is the same thing I saw at my former airlines, the pilots figured the airline would ever go out of business. Although NJ is not an airline there are similarities All I am saying is there are no guarantees in this business, and only time will tell if NJ grows in the next 5 years or stagnates. My opinion only you not have to agree.

 

[FLYLOW22]

My comments are regarding unions in general in light of how this thread started. The fact is historically unions are not quick to the move to give back anything or to take actions that mitigate what may be major outside events that changed the nature of the marketplace.
You are in the fractional business so let me use that as an example. It changed the nature of corporate aviation. It was a significant event and it was for the good of aircraft manufacturers. See sometimes these events can be positive. Airline deregulation may have hurt wages but it sure increased the number of paid pilots around.
Health care and the other benefits are part of the equation but again, the problems come when a business cannot sustain a growth rate or an outside event takes away the ability to progress. Shrinking companies have problems dealing with obligations from better times.
When 9/11 came, my magazine was almost an instant fatality and that meant the 7 people we employed were out of jobs. Our suppliers and vendors were out money and a future job. An outside event killed it. While we could take less pay, the fact is that things like health care cost and benefits stayed the same.
From some views, NJA was actually benefited by the same event. The resultant security and unpleasant nature of commercial aviation combined with the fractional ownership alternative was attractive. Let's face it, no one comes to NJA because they have some great pilots. Is a good pilot corp something needed, yes. On the other hand, it was the marketing genius of the brothers that made this work, not pilots. It is that concept and genius which fills the coffers you feel you are so entitled to.

SMELI... Stop stroking yourself for just a minute.

I'm not concerned with the history of Unions and how they have or have not reacted (according to you). Unions react to the stimulus provided to them by management. If that stimulus is negative then why the hell would you look for a positive response from a group consistently kicked in the head and treated like widgets.

Also, I beg to differ regarding hte wonderful twins you speak of who we should worship by the rise and fall of the sun.

Their wonderful idea would have been nothing but a concept on the shelf without labor to make it happen. I am grateful for the idea. They should be grateful for the workers making it happen. They are not and that is a problem but it's not a big enough problem to rain on our parade. We have careers to pursue and mouths to feed. At this point, if they don;t want to pay us what the market must bear then the Brothers Oracle can fly the rigs around.

 

[FLYLOW22]

DO-28, I am sure the UAL pilots felt the same way back in 2000, "Show me the money". That was followed by the cry of "Max Pay to the last Day", followed by on the last day a 35% pay cut which was better than unemployment. Rich people have lots of money, and that is good for you, just like it was when all the rich people flew first class on UAL. The first class passengers found a lower priced product and moved their flying to that airline or frac. If NJ gets to be out of line with running your own flight department or contracting with another frac operator, growth may slow down at NJ. I wish you and your brothers and sisters at NJ the best, but reality and history show this is not a sure thing. Only time will tell.

Ok. I'll say this one more time. Stop correlating (I know big word) between 121 (which is broken) and the fracionals. There is no comparison except we are in the air transport industry.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Although NJ is not an airline there are similarities All I am saying is there are no guarantees in this business, and only time will tell if NJ grows in the next 5 years or stagnates. My opinion only you not have to agree.

If we furlough or take paycuts then I will buy drinks. You can count on that.

It's a bet.

That's how wrong I think you are and I'm a cheap ass.

 

[pilotyip]

beers are cheap and I like to drink them so you are on, See you at the Wedge in five years and I don't care who buys. It is a classic Belleville watering hole

 

[gunfyter]

I'll bet I don't get furloughed. For once I am near the top of the list.

 

[FLYLOW22]

beers are cheap and I like to drink them so you are on, See you at the Wedge in five years and I don't care who buys. It is a classic Belleville watering hole

Sounds fair enough but me thinks I'm on the front edge of the wave for once on this one. Far too many times I was too late for the wave and ended up in the reef. I know what it feels like to reef and this ain't it.

Oh well... it's an endless summer.

 

[netjetwife]

182....216

How productive are NJ pilots? Is the company getting good value for the cost of pilots' salaries? The 7&7 schedule is based on 182 working days a year and the reserve schedule is 216 days. The pilots can be required to work 14 hour days and many routinely average 10-12 hr days.

Pilotyip this is the fractional section of the board. If you want to be helpful, please post the productivity figures for the fractional companies. The reality is that bad things can happen unexpectedly to businesses--or families. Worry about the future is a reason for insisting on professional wages, NOT an acceptable excuse for being underpaid. When pilots are paid fairly they are able to save for a rainy day. They and their families shouldn't have to live "hand to mouth" because management can't run the company efficiently. The examples of waste still continue to be posted on the NJ pilots' board, in spite of the increased cost in pilot salaries. Apparently the pilots are more concerned with the waste they see than those in charge. I hardly think the sky is falling because the overworked/underpaid pilots of NJA finally got a long overdue pay raise!
NJW

 

[pilotyip]

I am just sharing my experiences in my flying career. I have faced unemployment many times, I get nervous anytime anything changes that might lead to unemployment. Customers drive the business, not pilots, unions, management. I would be nervous if I worked at NJ right now. I am just sharing my thoughts. No ill will, believe me I hope it all works out. I also feel there is nothing unique about the ability to fly an airplane it is a universal skill for anyone who desires to pursue a flying career, and pilots skills are easily interchangeable within the professional pilots ranks. That makes me nervous too, because it also leads to unemployment. Am I going to be banned from the Frac board?

 

[FLYLOW22]

I am just sharing my experiences in my flying career. I have faced unemployment many times, I get nervous anytime anything changes that might lead to unemployment. Customers drive the business, not pilots, unions, management. I would be nervous if I worked at NJ right now. I am just sharing my thoughts. No ill will, believe me I hope it all works out. I also feel there is nothing unique about the ability to fly an airplane it is a universal skill for anyone who desires to pursue a flying career, and pilots skills are easily interchangeable within the professional pilots ranks. That makes me nervous too, because it also leads to unemployment. Am I going to be banned from the Frac board?

No... you are not banned brother, but maybe you will catch on to a few things many of us have posted throughout our time here that are pretty self-evident.

1. The best Unions are merely reactionary to the stimulus provided by management. We never claimed to, as a Union group, drive the industry as a primary driving factor. I think that NJ pilots DID drive the industry average payrates higher though. Look at what CS did with their pay. As a result, FLO can't pay their pilots the new industry averages and that will affect their recruitment and retention of pilots and ultimately their service ability to theri Owners. Then, by your system of measure, the Owners (or customer) will vote with thier feet and go somewhere else. NJ management knew this would be a positive effect of payraises for NJA pilots.

2. Please stop getting nervous any time something changes. Especially in aviation. NOTHING, absolutely nothing stays the same. Ever. Nature abhors a vaccuum.

3. I had been furloughed 4 times by the time I was 26 in this business. All 4 times I can firmly blame it as a result of perpertual BAD MANAGEMENT.

I won't go into detail here. Please feel free to read all of my posts I've ever made if you care to and you will get the jist.

We are not nervous friend. At first were were "fearful". Then some were "prepared". Now we are just a Strong Union that does it's best to plot a course for our members that is fair becasue we lack a managaement team that was able to do that without us as training wheels. NJ management knows fully well that they have all the latitude in the world, short of screwing us outside the provisions of the CBA to do whatever they want in the Frax biz.