Pilots in the job market--

[FLYLOW22]

My heart goes out to anyone missing a family member this Christmas. I know only too well what that is like. We have evil people in America, too.

They just dress better and occasionally take showers.

 

[Publishers]

There is not a direct correlation between unions and the bottom line as Southwest serves as an example. What does happen however, is that union companies do not have the capability to always react quickly to major changes in business.
Earlier, Netjetswife seem to feel that 9/11 was not something that needed a major reaction to deal with. Her pontiifcation about business is common union management drivel and just does not take into account that there have been and will continue to be major events that shake industries to the point some become unsound. There are a number of things that can make that happen and terrorism has been added recently. Others are major regulatory changes such as airline deregulation. another might be technology as in railroads versus airliners.
Unions tend to migrate to bigger work forces and so these big companies which are awkward from their size alone find themselves bogged down with union rules, massive pension cost, massive healthcare cost, etc..
She is right in that you can have a strong union and a strong company but what has to happen is a strong economy and mostly stability. Most unions work well in a growing economy or growing industry-- think Southwest-- and only fail when something comes along that causes a big recline in growth.
I would also point out to Netjetswife that at the time of their contract, United Airlines thought that they had come up with a terrific contract. None would have guessed that in a few years, employee ownership and much of the airline would be on the verge of extinction.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Thanks, GV! I'll take that as reinforcement of my post. Furthermore, let's all keep in mind that "modest" to the wealthy is way above the pilot salaries --even with the new pay raise. The money has always been there; they just didn't want to share it. I doubt it's much different at the other fractional companies. The businesses have been built on the backs of the pilots. Time to be fair and pay them like the professionals they are. Pay raises are way overdue--across the industry. It made sense for the biggest pilot group to go first. At the risk of being labeled a terrorist, I'll suggest that now is the time for the rest of you to make the most of this opportunity.

Best of luck!
Netjetwife

PS My definition of Jihad, as it applies to frac pilots---

J ust standing up for their rights
I nsisting on fair treatment and pay
H olding out for what they have earned
A ll standing together, shoulder to shoulder
D emanding they be recognized as professionals

"Jihad" as it applies to frac pilots?

WTF?

you might wanna rethink that one.

 

[Going2Golf]

"Jihad" as it applies to frac pilots?

WTF?

you might wanna rethink that one.

I think that it applies perfectly to Frac Pilots. Jihad defined...
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad )

Jihad (Arabic: جهاد jihād) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root jhd ("to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle"), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or military struggle to further the Islamic cause. The meaning of "Islamic cause" is, of course, open to interpretation. Mainstream Muslims consider jihad to be the most misunderstood aspect of their religion by non-Muslims[1]. The Islamic religious legitimacy of the goals or methods of various Islamist movements who adopt the terminology of jihad is often brought into question, usually by moderate and liberal Muslims.

The term is frequently mistranslated into English as "holy war"; however, the concept of jihad encompasses more than just warfare, and a more accurate translation probably would be "holy struggle" or "righteous struggle".

The denotation is of a challenging or difficult, (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or resistance.
A person who engages in any form of jihad is called a "mujahid", meaning "striver" or "struggler". This term is most often used to mean a person who engages in fighting, but, for example a Muslim struggling to memorize the Qur'an is called a mujahid.

 

[netjetwife]

Explaining my post---again.

GS200, I was NOT the one who introduced the term "Jihad" into the conversation/debate. The thread by WheresRocky which started the whole thing is now on page 2. My post (which confused you) was an attempt to apply the meaning that G2G did such a good job of explaining. It was exactly what I had in mind when I gave my definition of Jihad. WheresRocky is the one who had tried to link --unfairly so, I might add---the negative connotation of the word to the right of pilots to form a union to represent their interests. Apparently you missed his post which started out like this---

RUFM up...Radical Union fundamentalist movement
"Netjetwife and others are involved in a full time JIHAD now. Evidence: 99% of their posts of late are spreading their radical pro-union stance on those non-union fractional carriers. "

 

[FLYLOW22]

There is not a direct correlation between unions and the bottom line as Southwest serves as an example. What does happen however, is that union companies do not have the capability to always react quickly to major changes in business.
Earlier, Netjetswife seem to feel that 9/11 was not something that needed a major reaction to deal with. Her pontiifcation about business is common union management drivel and just does not take into account that there have been and will continue to be major events that shake industries to the point some become unsound. There are a number of things that can make that happen and terrorism has been added recently. Others are major regulatory changes such as airline deregulation. another might be technology as in railroads versus airliners.
Unions tend to migrate to bigger work forces and so these big companies which are awkward from their size alone find themselves bogged down with union rules, massive pension cost, massive healthcare cost, etc..
She is right in that you can have a strong union and a strong company but what has to happen is a strong economy and mostly stability. Most unions work well in a growing economy or growing industry-- think Southwest-- and only fail when something comes along that causes a big recline in growth.
I would also point out to Netjetswife that at the time of their contract, United Airlines thought that they had come up with a terrific contract. None would have guessed that in a few years, employee ownership and much of the airline would be on the verge of extinction.

And you weren't just pontificating?

The fact is that it costs the same for company A to support their Unionized labor with decent pay and benes while working together as it does company B to fight their union tooth and nail and NOT get the reielf the copany needs to respond to the changes in the industry.

I am glad we have the leadership we do in our Union. I am sure that if the industry changed dramatically tomorrow, the company would get the relief they needed (and nothing more). We already responded to the NetJets need for relief once when 91K went into effect last year.

We have good leadership. Some Unions do not. To lump all of the Unions out there into one category is downright racist.

 

[FLYLOW22]

"Jihad" as it applies to frac pilots?

WTF?

you might wanna rethink that one.

That was a joke she was making to Rocky or Bullwinkle at the beginning of the thread. Do some digging for the rest of the story.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

GS200, I was NOT the one who introduced the term "Jihad" into the conversation/debate. The thread by WheresRocky which started the whole thing is now on page 2. My post (which confused you) was an attempt to apply the meaning that G2G did such a good job of explaining. It was exactly what I had in mind when I gave my definition of Jihad. WheresRocky is the one who had tried to link --unfairly so, I might add---the negative connotation of the word to the right of pilots to form a union to represent their interests. Apparently you missed his post which started out like this---

RUFM up...Radical Union fundamentalist movement
"Netjetwife and others are involved in a full time JIHAD now. Evidence: 99% of their posts of late are spreading their radical pro-union stance on those non-union fractional carriers. "

I guess I did. sorry.

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks for the apology! Now that you understand--what do you think of my definition of Jihad, based on the true meaning, as explained by G2G? He's right, it applies perfectly. There were many times over the last few years that it felt like an uphill battle. Now the focus is on compliance, and learning to work together for the good of all--company and pilot group. Those who followed closely know who has the most to learn.

Publishers, labor strife is well known for being a major distraction for companies. Just as contented, motivated employees are better known for going the extra mile when called upon. In a perfect world unions wouldn't be needed. Unfortunately, we all know that NJA was in no hurry to treat its pilots respectfully and pay them professionally. Management and SU leadership have expressed a common goal of improving their labor/management relationship. Now that the company is finally putting their money where their mouth is, there is a real chance of making that goal a reality.

And one more thing --while I'm pontificating Benefits like health care and 401K matching are considered the basic costs of attracting skilled workers, these days. It has nothing to do with whether or not the workers are unionized-- or not. I will agree, though, that the workers who band together have the greatest chance of receiving their due share from the company's coffers. Likewise, the companies that deal fairly and honestly with their workforce are least likely to have employees that demand more than they're due.

Lastly (yes, that makes 2 final points, but isn't that allowed when you pontificate...lol?) as far as being able to respond rapidly to economic changes, a strong union can be a big help in that regard. Given the last 4 years at NJA, who has the best chance of getting the pilots to go above and beyond when the company is in a bind--management or 1108's leadership?
NJW

 

[DO-82 driver]

NJW.....time and time again SU has proven that this pilot force is comprised of experts in the fields the Company so desperately needs assistance in. The problem lies in the poor Upper-level Management that will not utilitze these experts in solving the many problems that exist in the Puzzle Palace.

Now that the negotiations are over, I pray they will see the light at the end of the tunnel and work in earnest with SU to make this place run more efficiently.

I really see the problem as being the death grip the "old hands" in scheduling have over their little kingdom. There are several key people up there who will fight ANY interferrence in the way they have done things over soooo many years.

We are not a Mom and Pop company anymore but they still insist on doing things as they have done in the past. When these people are convinced that there is a better way or when they are forced to go elsewhere then I will know this Company is serious about saving money.

I truely believe they are untouchables......not taking their orders from BB but rather RTS. And as long as they feed him the numbers he wants to see, there is no chance of changing their perverted practices.

 

[FLYLOW22]

NJW.....time and time again SU has proven that this pilot force is comprised of experts in the fields the Company so desperately needs assistance in. The problem lies in the poor Upper-level Management that will not utilitze these experts in solving the many problems that exist in the Puzzle Palace.

Now that the negotiations are over, I pray they will see the light at the end of the tunnel and work in earnest with SU to make this place run more efficiently.

I really see the problem as being the death grip the "old hands" in scheduling have over their little kingdom. There are several key people up there who will fight ANY interferrence in the way they have done things over soooo many years.

We are not a Mom and Pop company anymore but they still insist on doing things as they have done in the past. When these people are convinced that there is a better way or when they are forced to go elsewhere then I will know this Company is serious about saving money.

I truely believe they are untouchables......not taking their orders from BB but rather RTS. And as long as they feed him the numbers he wants to see, there is no chance of changing their perverted practices.

The best Unions are merely reactionary to the stimulus provided to them by management.

 

[Publishers]

My comments are regarding unions in general in light of how this thread started. The fact is historically unions are not quick to the move to give back anything or to take actions that mitigate what may be major outside events that changed the nature of the marketplace.
You are in the fractional business so let me use that as an example. It changed the nature of corporate aviation. It was a significant event and it was for the good of aircraft manufacturers. See sometimes these events can be positive. Airline deregulation may have hurt wages but it sure increased the number of paid pilots around.
Health care and the other benefits are part of the equation but again, the problems come when a business cannot sustain a growth rate or an outside event takes away the ability to progress. Shrinking companies have problems dealing with obligations from better times.
When 9/11 came, my magazine was almost an instant fatality and that meant the 7 people we employed were out of jobs. Our suppliers and vendors were out money and a future job. An outside event killed it. While we could take less pay, the fact is that things like health care cost and benefits stayed the same.
From some views, NJA was actually benefited by the same event. The resultant security and unpleasant nature of commercial aviation combined with the fractional ownership alternative was attractive. Let's face it, no one comes to NJA because they have some great pilots. Is a good pilot corp something needed, yes. On the other hand, it was the marketing genius of the brothers that made this work, not pilots. It is that concept and genius which fills the coffers you feel you are so entitled to.

 

[pilotyip]

Pubs stop dealing in reality this is a pilot board.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Pubs....I'm glad you think so highly of the "pilot-ing" profession. You actually sound like a 1500 hr pilot. Pick up 5K or 6K more and them tell me your thoughts.

Yes, it is the genius of RTS that got this whole thing rolling and for that I am very thankful. However, the Fractional fly the richest 2% of the general public, 24 hours a day on their schedule in all weather into and out of small, obscure fields as well as major hubs. We provide a service they very much desire.......and its going to cost them.

If you are trying to make me feel like I shouldn't be making the money I'm making and have the schedule I have.... it didn't work. I paiod my dues as did many, many of my Fractional Brothers and Sisters and I want the max amount of money I can get.

This is a new era...dreams of the airlines are over......show me the money!!!!!

 

[pilotyip]

DO-28, I am sure the UAL pilots felt the same way back in 2000, "Show me the money". That was followed by the cry of "Max Pay to the last Day", followed by on the last day a 35% pay cut which was better than unemployment. Rich people have lots of money, and that is good for you, just like it was when all the rich people flew first class on UAL. The first class passengers found a lower priced product and moved their flying to that airline or frac. If NJ gets to be out of line with running your own flight department or contracting with another frac operator, growth may slow down at NJ. I wish you and your brothers and sisters at NJ the best, but reality and history show this is not a sure thing. Only time will tell.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Pilotyip,

I an sure that NJA is not going to fold based on what they are currently paying us, including the benefits. A 5yr Captain making 90K is not going to break the bank.

I'm not sure if the UAL analogy is a fair one to make in that the fractionals are nothing like the airlines. Fuel being directly passed on the the owners is one of the most glaring differences. Non-flexibilty is another. We don't incur the delays that the majors do in that we fly into and out of satellite airports mostly.

Many of the problems the major airline faced were due largely to the short-sightedness of their upper management. Bonuses were assured for most of them while the people in the trenches made peanuts.....and I was one of them making peanuts.

Time will tell..........and no responsible Union leadership will jeapordize the liveliood of their members. I know I'm in good hands with Strong Union and Local 1108. I think some of the other fractional pilots are going to discover that real soon.

 

[netjetwife]

The fact is historically unions are not quick to the move to give back anything or to take actions that mitigate what may be major outside events that changed the nature of the marketplace.

The airline pilots have certainly taken big pay cuts to help their companies--that has been documented in the news. I will maintain that the unions have been at least AS quick as management to "give back" something. We personally witnessed AA asking its pilots to give up part of their compensation package right after 9/11. When management was exposed for scrambling to secure their money,while calling for cuts (in pay and numbers) from the rank and file, they lost credibility with many pilots--my husband included.

When he joined NJA we gave a new set of managers the benefit of the doubt. We were rewarded with broken promises. NJ pilots are very cautiously working to form a new partnership with management, but trust has to be earned. Unions will react quicker when they can believe what the company leaders are telling them and when they see that sacrifice is expected by EVERYONE, not just the rank and file. Leading by example--like they do at SWA--is the best guarantee for the results you're looking for, Publishers. As DO-82 driver has pointed out, there are concrete ways that management can show the NJ pilots that they are serious about making positive changes that will improve the company and lead to greater profits for all to share. In the interest of giving credit where credit is due---NJA DOES make the most of their pilots' skills and experience in marketing the company. Furthermore, it IS the pilotforce that has the most interaction with the owners/pax and are on the front line in providing the excellent service that makes for satisfied clients that renew their contracts. Without THAT, the company would fold, regardless of how great the idea is that led to its conception.

Pilotyip, are you implying that NJ pilots are greedy?! If so, that is completely unfair. The pilots and their families lost a lot of (earned) money while the company drug out negotiations. They didn't pay the pilots real Retro, just a signing bonus that fell far short of what was owed. The pilots accepted a 5 yr contract when they preferred the 3 yr one they had previously. The FOs saw their pay improved, but it still isn't 60% of Captain pay--the industry standard. Had the NJ pilots wages kept pace with inflation all along, it wouldn't have been such a big jump to get where they should have been. Please stop worrying about the company. They made a lot of money while they were underpaying the pilots since 1998. The current contract can best be described as "decent" not good/great. Just because the pilots weren't told THIS time--you could have gotten more--doesn't mean that NJA can't easily afford to PAY PILOTS LIKE THE PROFESSIONALS THEY ARE!

Regards,
Netjetwife

 

[pilotyip]

Where did I say greedy? I have worked at union airlines where pilots thought the sky was the limit for pay, they are both out of business. I would not want that to happen to anyone else. I wished the NJ brothers and sisters the best and said only time will tell if this will last. Thanks goodness for military retirement it is all I have to show for my career.

 

[gunfyter]

Where did I say greedy? I have worked at union airlines where pilots thought the sky was the limit for pay, they are both out of business. I would not want that to happen to anyone else. I wished the NJ brothers and sisters the best and said only time will tell if this will last. Thanks goodness for military retirement it is all I have to show for my career.

And Pilot salaries are what did these carriers in?

I ask this because I remember seeing the losses posted by some airlines, and the salary concessions made by pilots. I do not now remember the exact numbers but

Losses of $2 Billion and 40% paycuts to save $500 million.

Which means 100% paycuts would only save 1.25 Billion.

So pilots working for FREE they still loses 750 million!

Those are not the numbers but I saw something like this concerning United a while back.


Oh those greedy pilot unions....

 

[netjetwife]

You're correct, Pilotyip, you didn't say the word "greedy. Nor did I say that you did. I was questioning the tone and implications of your post. Too many times I've heard airline pilots blamed for all the woes in a situation which had plenty of blame to go around, not to mention factors that were beyond the control of anyone. I wanted to know if that was what you were implying in your post about UAL.

I think enough time has passed to show that the Fractionals fulfill a need in the aviation market. The pilots continue to provide a product the customer feels is worth the price. The biggest problem I've seen that has the most potential to "rock the boat" is the card program. That can be blamed on greed but not by the union. Owners were/are getting upset but not at the pilots. I suggest that policies made by those at the top, rather than fair salaries for pilots, have the greatest likelihood of hurting a frac company.

DO-82 driver, I have also heard the complaints (justified, I'll add) about some on the management side that should be replaced. SU leaders are doing their best to bring problems to light and work with management to find solutions. There have been encouraging signs that some at the Puzzle Palace would like to foster better labor relations with the union. It is something to build on. Just look at how far the NJ pilot-group came in a year when SU took over and 1108 was formed. I do think the company is starting to realize that there are some very smart leaders/volunteers in SU that have a lot to offer--aside from flying airplanes. The implementation process is doing more than just get the contract put in place. It is showing both sides that they can work together on projects that benefit everyone. May the New Year bring new beginnings for NJ pilots and their peers in the other frac companies.