Pilot forced to retire--Boo hoo! Freaking baby!

[Regul8r]

I am on the fence about whether or not the regionals destroyed this career, affirmative action has helped others who would have never broken the "good old boy club" and it has also given opportunities to people who dont deserve even welfare!.....

Engineers and technology had a large role to play. It allows some moron with minimal skills to "fly" the plane while listening to his iPod and playing with his PSP. As a 777 Captain/former Navy pilot wrote in a magazine column, "Pilots have gone from Aviators of past to Flight Deck Monitors today" The 121 world is an absolute shadow of its former self.

 

[GuppyWN]

So Andy. You're 46 and working on more kids with wiffie #2. You'll be about 48 when Jr. is hatched. You'll be an AARP member before he hits kindergarten. He'll be in high school when you retire AT 65! So I'm guessing about 2023 you'll be on FI looking to change it to 70 so you can pay for college!

Gup

 

[B737Dvr]

Math......

Isn't that hurt enough when it translates into a decrease in earning potential over a career?

Ok, lets break it down this way shall we? say you are a young guy hired on at 30. right now you have 30 more years before you turn into a pumpkin. they now pass this age 65 rule. before, upgrade time was not really predictable because of a dozen factors but say it is 5 years. with this new age 65 rule and the complexities of having an under 60 guy in there with an over 60 guy, i dont see how staffing levels will be hurt that bad, being that there will always have to be a younger guy around to fly with the over 60 guy. now having said that, say it just delays upgrade by another 2 years or so, regardless of how you look at it in the example above you GET 5 MORE YEARS YOURSELF. maybe you dont want 5 more years you say, well its your decision, as well as it should be the decision of someone over 60 that is very capable still.

decrease in earnings potential? how? they get 5 more years....you and everyone else gets the same 5 more years.....it actually increases your potential LONG TERM EARNINGS! the only negative is that you wait more, and well so be it.....youll appreciate it more when you occupy their shoes in the future.

 

[PHXFLYR]

NO one told him cannot fly anymore. The FAA didn't pull his ATP just cause he turned 60. Your arguement is a little simplistic.

........................................................

 

[B737Dvr]

incredible........

Anybody who would put all their retirement eggs in one basket (A and B Fund) at ANY time before or after 9/11 is retarded. That being said - never live beyond your means no matter WHAT your seniority or wage.

Just seems that some want a do-over since they did not head the above warnings.

Sorry but that is life and they should get out of the left seat and readjust their expectations of retirement (Accord instead of BMW)

BUT
That being said......the FAA will change the rule anyways and we lil know-it-all RJ punks will have to adjust.

But that is ok because I KNOW life isn't fair and I seek NO second chance at the money till..

Man, you really dont get it, or just plain dont give a shyte!
the last thing any of these poor airmen need is an investment lesson from the likes of a young puke who's feet isnt big enough yet to fill one shoe of a 30yr career let alone walk a mile in them.

You think people are asking for a do over? wow i havent heard that term since my college days partying and chugging beers! cute contribution, has the no payment term expired on your school loan yet or you still have time to go before you start paying it back?

I think people are just asking for reasonable time to try and make up some lost wages. regardless of management, the tooth fairy or ALPA or whoever trashed it, some guys had no say and they are just trying to get some back while they still are mentally and physically able.

now if someone was living beyond their means, then they are now reaping what they sowed, i dont advocate living beyond your means, but that is besides the point, a careers savings was lost at one of the worst times for them.

but like you said: sorry that is life, it isnt fair, so if you tell them to get out of the left seat and readjust their expectations of retirement, then i say to you : quit your flying job. go enlist and serve a tour or two in Iraq. come back fly banners, then fly checks, hop back into a prop, follow that with a jet and then if you are lucky into a Boeing or Airbus. fly coast to coast, fly to an island south of Lat 20N, fly across an ocean, start a family, become a dad all the while keeping your career going as well as your marriage, by then you will have some hair down below, some wrinkles from shooting approaches after flying across multiple time zones and some wisdom to replace that mouth of yours.....and then maybe you might have a clue, you might come to the conclusion that it isnt all about money and do overs! some might actually love what they do.

i feel compelled to share another little tidbit of incredible insight and wisdom with everyone that might shed some another viewpoint on this topic.

as antoine de saint exupery said:
"If i summon up those memories that have left me with an enduring savor, if i draw up the balance sheet of the hours in my life that have truly counted, surely I find those that no wealth could have procured me".

Some people just love what they do.

 

[AlbieF15]

B737....for an old man who feels he's got so much to add, may I suggest hitting the shift key every once in a while? Us ealry generation X guys have a hard time reading your babble when you don't format it properly.

Age 60 is bad for me. Its bad for my business. I make no moral stand--and I'll put my money towards any organization that will fight it. That said--we gotta share the cockpit when its over--so we'll see what happens.

BTW...some of those under 50 folks you are going to screw might not have been flying for an airline all those years, but a bunch were serving their country doing flying that had its own challenges and rewards. Just because I didn't pull gear for some fat ass blow-hard in a DC-8 20 years ago doesn't mean I don't know ******************** about aviation. I spent the last 20 years training to deal with Migs and SA-6s, and believe it or not I don't think shooting an approach in the weather somewhere is all that friggin hard. Its probably too hard for someone over 60, but in the big picture...it ain't that friggin' hard.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I spent the last 20 years training to deal with Migs and SA-6s.

Do you encounter alot of those on your freight runs?

 

[007]

decrease in earnings potential? how? they get 5 more years....you and everyone else gets the same 5 more years.....it actually increases your potential LONG TERM EARNINGS! the only negative is that you wait more, and well so be it.....youll appreciate it more when you occupy their shoes in the future.

Because pay will be even less now that we'll have 5 more years to reach the highest earning potential. I am sure managment will see that and adjust wages accordingly.

I think the rule will come and nothing can stop it. But, 737dvr, would you be so passionate about this topic if the FAA said that the rule won't go into effect unless you were born say 1950 or later? I doubt it!

BTW, I agree that you have paid your dues and made sacrifices, but would you stop with the "We old guys can do it better and with one hand on the wheel".

First, the generation prior to yours said the same thing.

Second, aren't you a little bit sharper than to get into these "My d1ck is bigger than yours contests".

Just curious.

 

[27 driver]

Ok, lets break it down this way shall we? say you are a young guy hired on at 30. right now you have 30 more years before you turn into a pumpkin. they now pass this age 65 rule. before, upgrade time was not really predictable because of a dozen factors but say it is 5 years. with this new age 65 rule and the complexities of having an under 60 guy in there with an over 60 guy, i dont see how staffing levels will be hurt that bad, being that there will always have to be a younger guy around to fly with the over 60 guy. now having said that, say it just delays upgrade by another 2 years or so, regardless of how you look at it in the example above you GET 5 MORE YEARS YOURSELF. maybe you dont want 5 more years you say, well its your decision, as well as it should be the decision of someone over 60 that is very capable still.

decrease in earnings potential? how? they get 5 more years....you and everyone else gets the same 5 more years.....it actually increases your potential LONG TERM EARNINGS! the only negative is that you wait more, and well so be it.....youll appreciate it more when you occupy their shoes in the future.

You forgot about the compounded interest of the money it takes 5 years longer to earn.

 

[mnboyev]

*************************.... Are we really gonna have to work past 60...? I got 18 left to age 60....how will I ever make it to 65 ?... Screaming kids..whinning FA's..backpack toting rj FO's..cranky rude agents..fat mechanics..grumpy egotistical senior captains..greedy senior managers...FAA numbskulls..Dictator like ATC..not to mention dry cleaning..commuting..van rides..hotel rooms..missed time with family and friends.....

I do still like flying....I just want our profession to maintain a 'level' that is worthy of our time energy and commitment. So how we gonna do that?....Management and the industry dynamics have changed so much..and the unions have lost so much ground I'm not sure it can be regained. Got to pack my roller bag for another 4 day trip.... Check in at 1500...Grind up and down the east coast...Aahhh I love aviation...can't wait to do another approach in the snow sleet and rain...nobody cares unless they get stuck on a JB jet for 8 hours...thanks for listening....peace

 

[Gorilla]

They should grandfather the stupid rule. If you are an ATP on the date the rule is changed, you must retire at 60. That way, you play by the rules you knew of when you signed up. Very simple. No ATP, then you get to go til 65.

Another answer - simply refuse to fly as an FO if the dude to the left can't find the retirement button. Get sick. We've done more drastic job actions for lesser provocations before. "Hmm, Captain is 64??!! <COUGH COUGH> Oh man I feel lousy!"

 

[Oh-ryan]

Age 60 should be repealed because it is bad law. NO ONE should be forced to give up his chosedn profession because of an arbitrary date on a calendar.

huh?
Tell that to the MILLIONS of military, federal, state, and local civil servants, primarily law enforcement officers and firefighters. I know the feds have to retire at 57 and most state and local guys are out at 35 years regardless of age. You can't tell me that there are a good percentage of those workers that enjoy what they do and would love to stick it out a few more years. Yet it's always the pilots we hear about it the news. Why is that? Are they the ones doing more of the complaining? Who knows. I tend to think pilots literally are doing more of the bitching. I say this because I have had a lot of exposure to cops, firemen and military. I have been on active duty and several members of my immediate family are employed as cops and firefighers. During all of my years growing up around them and even today I have yet to see a cop bitch to the media about being forced to retire. Sure there may be some, but not nearly as much as I have seen coming from the post 9/11 pilot side of the house. Age 65 doesn't apply to me, but whether the age is 60 or 65... when it's time to go, get the heck out and be dignified about it. You're not the only one being forced to retire from doing something you enjoy. Find something else that gets your rocks off. Don't bitch to the media or your congressman. It's embarrassing and it certainly doesn't help the public's image of the pilot prima donna. If you think you are being unfairly treated, then bitch to your union and let them handle it. Chances are they already have and you just happen to disagree with their stance, but hey it's a democracy... that's life. Please stay off CNN and out of the newspapers.

Yes, I am making a bit of an "apples to oranges" comparison... civil servants have great retirement benefits and pilots have gotten the screw job in recent years. However, I assert that the career earnings of the majority pilots being forced to retire at 60 dwarf the career earnings that most civil servants make during both their employment and retirement years.

Also, B737Dvr, you make some great posts however you are walking the fine line of being the "Hey Junior, shut the eff up and do what I say" captain that no one likes to fly with. Coming from the military side of the house, I too subscribe to the "New guys need to have a small mouth and big ears" concept, however your posts sound like you may be taking it a bit far. I know it's difficult to ascertain emotion from written text, but I am sensing that you are not the type of guy that appreciates a new FO questioning your decisions. I may be the only one who is thinking that, but I wouldn't be surprized if there were others out there also getting that impression.

 

[svcta]

737, you said earlier that even if you can you don't have to work to 65. Well, what about the penalty for early retirement? In that case if you wanted to retire at 60 you'd be taking it in the shorts. I'll focus on this side of the argument for a while because I haven't heard you or anyone address it: What will prevent management from using "65" as leverage at the negotiating table?

 

[B737Dvr]

good points

Valid points guys, THIS IS FOR MY OLD MILITARY FRIEND,(THIS BETTER) LOL
SERIOUSLY, SHOOTING AN APPROACH IS NOT HARD AT ALL, I JUST WANTED TO POINT OUT THAT IT CAN BE HARD WHEN ON THE BACKSIDE OF THE CLOCK AFTER MULTIPLE TIME ZONES WHEN FATIGUE IS SITTING ON YOUR SHOULDER....THATS ALL. I CAN EASILY SAY THAT YOUR TYPICAL FIGHTER SORTIES DONT LAST AS LONG AS SOME CIVILIAN LONG HAUL TRIPS TRIPS AND I WONT DARE SAY THAT YOUR FLYING IS EASIER......BUT WALK A MILE IN A LONG HAUL PILOTS SHOES AND YOU MIGHT APPRECIATE THE UNIQUE ADDED COMPLEXITIES OF A SIMLPLE APPROACH.

and to the other one who is sick of my "dick is bigger than yours" talk.....
i hoped to avoid this specifically and tried to explain via other means, but i will never shun any other pilot for what they fly, do, age, or inclinations.
I will however take exception to those that attack without empathy or understanding or first hand experience of what exactly they are talking about.

would i be so passionate about the rule if it excluded me? Yes! I dont hold it against the generation that flew when aviation operated with respect and dignity, when first class was truly first class, when people didnt board wearing flip flops and pj's, when rampers didnt treat you like trash, when pay was respectable i will never see that. I will always know the yelling pax when their $39 coast to coast flight doesnt meet their lofty expectations
etc etc etc......but i am passionate about trying to keep the general decay of society out of the cockpit as best as i can! as far as im concerned i love to fly and i will be damned if i get someone who comes into the cockpit with an attitude that says i deserve everything that you all consider privelages.....

Now i am not singling anyone out, but just making a general statement about what i see in the news at large is all.....i may have digressed and sorry if i did, but those are my passions.

 

[Flopgut]

decrease in earnings potential? how? they get 5 more years....you and everyone else gets the same 5 more years.....it actually increases your potential LONG TERM EARNINGS! the only negative is that you wait more, and well so be it.....youll appreciate it more when you occupy their shoes in the future.

I want to retire at 60. I will take a huge paycut. No one will make any more money until you go past age 60.

You wax eloquently but I think your full of poop. If you really love this profession remove you own personal needs/wishes from the equation. Is this good for our profession, or just good for you and a very few? Look across the decades of this profession and tell me this is what we need now! No it is NOT my friend!

Changing the age: works only once, diminishes our ability to bargain for raises, doesn't help any pilot until the day they work past 60, and does not enhance safety.

Of course I understand this will probably be changing, and this change, in and of itself, won't unravel the profession. However, I am quite concerned about what this APAAD group will try to pull next. It's an activist type group and I'm sure they won't be done. This is the easiest money they ever made [stole] and they're going to want more.

The generation of pilots looking at retirement need to go. We need renewal; new philosophies and standards in this endeavor. I don't think anyone wants to see what 5 more years of elder boomers in charge will be like. This retiring generation has done more damage, not only to this profession, but the entire world! Environmentally, socio-economically and politcally...the elder boomers are woefully bad leaders.

My father has 15000 hrs in propeller airliners, one third of that the airplane had spark plugs. He retired with 10000 hrs in Boeing jets when his airline was forced out of business. He lost a fully funded pension, my family all got jobs to buy food, and we observed Christmas without exchanging gifts more than once. That was 20+ years ago! Pilots have been losing pensions for a long time and no one cared! Especially these potential retirees right now. When my father lost his job the younger pilots from another airline in town had a BBQ and then went out and bought new cars! He was stunned! The guys retiring when he started out (the ones who flew from bonfire to bonfire at night) would have been bringing over help and well wishes. Not the guys who want this age changed now! He!! no, they've been celebrating others' misfortunes for a long time. Interestingly, now they're the ones in need and it matters more now?

This will hopefully take the full two years, be a relatively long-ish phase in, and somehow preserve the ability to retire at 60 as a normal age.

 

[B737Dvr]

now this is what dialogue looks like!

Also, B737Dvr, you make some great posts however you are walking the fine line of being the "Hey Junior, shut the eff up and do what I say" captain that no one likes to fly with. Coming from the military side of the house, I too subscribe to the "New guys need to have a small mouth and big ears" concept, however your posts sound like you may be taking it a bit far. I know it's difficult to ascertain emotion from written text, but I am sensing that you are not the type of guy that appreciates a new FO questioning your decisions. I may be the only one who is thinking that, but I wouldn't be surprized if there were others out there also getting that impression.[/quote]

First off, thank you for choosing to engage in dialogue and not inflamatory attacks. It is very hard to discern emotion from bland text, my wife and i talk about this quite a bit when im on the road!!!....LOL!!!!
looking from the outside in, i would agree that perhaps i have a tinge of shut the hell up and do as i say.
Let me say that I fly today because of the kindness of a crew years ago who entertained me in the cockpit of their 747 across an ocean when i was a UM.
I never forget that and today i try and do the same for future generations no matter what they want to do, i look in their eyes and see wonder and amazement and i wish i could strap them in the jumpseat and give them the thrill of their lives. I taught, and I still teach new hires and help when i can so they dont have the trial by fires that i did.
Perhaps that is my downfall as well. when i see a person operate without dignity and respect for others and do it somewhere where i myself consider it a privelage to be......man that just lights a fire in my ass.....so that is where i come from. the challenge is to not lose it and try and make your point come across in a civil and respectable yet strong manner.

alas, we will always have people that operate without dignity and respect and you will never please everyone, so i try and say my piece and then let it be at that, but i will always welcome dialogue!

 

[B737Dvr]

I want to retire at 60. I will take a huge paycut. No one will make any more money until you go past age 60.

You wax eloquently but I think your full of poop. If you really love this profession remove you own personal needs/wishes from the equation. Is this good for our profession, or just good for you and a very few? Look across the decades of this profession and tell me this is what we need now! No it is NOT my friend!

Changing the age: works only once, diminishes our ability to bargain for raises, doesn't help any pilot until the day they work past 60, and does not enhance safety.

Of course I understand this will probably be changing, and this change, in and of itself, won't unravel the profession. However, I am quite concerned about what this APAAD group will try to pull next. It's an activist type group and I'm sure they won't be done. This is the easiest money they ever made [stole] and they're going to want more.

The generation of pilots looking at retirement need to go. We need renewal; new philosophies and standards in this endeavor. I don't think anyone wants to see what 5 more years of elder boomers in charge will be like. This retiring generation has done more damage, not only to this profession, but the entire world! Environmentally, socio-economically and politcally...the elder boomers are woefully bad leaders.

My father has 15000 hrs in propeller airliners, one third of that the airplane had spark plugs. He retired with 10000 hrs in Boeing jets when his airline was forced out of business. He lost a fully funded pension, my family all got jobs to buy food, and we observed Christmas without exchanging gifts more than once. That was 20+ years ago! Pilots have been losing pensions for a long time and no one cared! Especially these potential retirees right now. When my father lost his job the younger pilots from another airline in town had a BBQ and then went out and bought new cars! He was stunned! The guys retiring when he started out (the ones who flew from bonfire to bonfire at night) would have been bringing over help and well wishes. Not the guys who want this age changed now! He!! no, they've been celebrating others' misfortunes for a long time. Interestingly, now they're the ones in need and it matters more now?

This will hopefully take the full two years, be a relatively long-ish phase in, and somehow preserve the ability to retire at 60 as a normal age.

hmmmm.....sorry to hear about what your father went through while others reaped windfalls, sad to hear about things like this.
being full of poop, that is debatable....but i have no personal wishes interferring with the equation. i actually started off my defending the notion that all age 60 guys are old and unsafe thats all. i really dont care if this passes or not. perhaps i should and i might need to read more on both sides of the issue. i try and avoid rhetoric, that is what management and politicians do when they try and lie, im just about coming in to go fly, live my dream and along my path if others need help i try and uphold good values and beliefs. i am far from perfect, i just hope to not repeat old mistakes over again.

if people want out at 50, great! if they want out at 65, ill buy them a beer and thank those for their tutelage, i personally try and secure my finances outside of aviation, which may take me a lifetime, but for those less fortunate, i just sympathize with them, even the ones who live outside their means, because unfortunately they bring others down with them and that is why i sympathize with their loved ones who are along on their ride.....

 

[Flopgut]

B737Dvr: My father losing his job was the biggest change in our lives; forever a before and an after. But many pilots have had worse, so please don't think I'm complaining. What I'm saying is I have experience with this, so I have a very hard time listening to a bunch of pilots bawl and whine about having to retire. Arriving at a specific age is no hardship compared to the total ambush of having your airline shut down. An age criteria for retirement is not this profession's only problem and should not be viewed as it's most immediate need, as the APAAD crowd maintains. Furthermore, if they aren't prepared by one age limit, why should anyone assume they will be prepared at any age limit? I promise you there will be plenty of pilots who want to work until 70 after we change this age.

Dissent is an interesting thing. All pilots do it differently and it's difficult to read. Some younger and more junior pilots may be reacting in a way that you think is disrespectful, but consider giving them a break. Many have more than earned the right to withdraw enthusiasm in this environment. And let's face it: When their senior counterparts are about haul out more top dollars and hand them ANOTHER paycut, what are they suppose to be happy about?

What we need are real solutions; we need more money and stability. We are not going to get either by only changing the retirement age. In fact, changing the age will enable airline mgts to ignore collective bargaining efforts at raises and retirement enhancements. They'll be able to say "pilots just got a million dollar raise! We need to cut their pay not raise it!" When in reality, the age change only helped very few and cost every other pilot money. And it will be that way for a long time.

 

[B737Dvr]

forgot about that!!!!

Dissent is an interesting thing. All pilots do it differently and it's difficult to read. Some younger and more junior pilots may be reacting in a way that you think is disrespectful, but consider giving them a break. Many have more than earned the right to withdraw enthusiasm in this environment. And let's face it: When their senior counterparts are about haul out more top dollars and hand them ANOTHER paycut, what are they suppose to be happy about?

What we need are real solutions; we need more money and stability. We are not going to get either by only changing the retirement age. In fact, changing the age will enable airline mgts to ignore collective bargaining efforts at raises and retirement enhancements. They'll be able to say "pilots just got a million dollar raise! We need to cut their pay not raise it!" When in reality, the age change only helped very few and cost every other pilot money. And it will be that way for a long time.[/quote]

Flopgut, good point in bringing that up! Yeah the whole displacing of RJ guys so that mainline guys could still work and no flowthroughs from lower to higher is BS.....i can see how those younger RJ guys have a real beef with that and it isnt right. that is a clear indication of another thing that is wrong with the industry at large and management knows it and uses it against the front line crews. Total freaking bs, and i still cant figure out how ALPA can represent both sides of a company like mainline delta or AA and then screw over the comair or eagle guys....that just blows my mind!

My worst kick in the gut? was flying for free for 2 weeks then getting 2sec notice of being unemployed because the company i worked for ceased ops while the fleet was enroute and i never saw a penny of the work that i did and had to spend the weekend jumpseating to get my crap back home from the hotel.

i should have listened to my mother and stayed in school!
lol

 

[Catbird]

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."

Earl Weaver