Pilot forced to retire--Boo hoo! Freaking baby!

[Nindiri]

I think I'm going to work until 65 just to annoy my FO's.

 

[Regul8r]

Just because I didn't pull gear for some fat ass blow-hard in a DC-8 20 years ago doesn't mean I don't know ******************** about aviation...believe it or not I don't think shooting an approach in the weather somewhere is all that friggin hard.

It shows your ignorance on the topic of the airlines. 4400 Hrs? Give me a break Lindbergh. You do realize that it takes 10-20 years of experience to build sound decision making skills? It sounds like your skills are aptly oriented for military flying which couldn't be more different from Airline Flying. Not to imply that Airline Flying is the most challenging thing, however, when you've spent 10-15 yrs as an FO...you might start to understand a thing or two about it. Until then, pipe down.

 

[svcta]

You do realize that it takes 10-20 years of experience to build sound decision making skills?

I'll bet you settled on this in your 21st year. How many upgrades did you bypass before then?

10-20 years? Come on, man, how many pilots would this philosophy remove from the decision making process?

 

[Flopgut]

B737Dvr: Sure, lot's of bad things happening and I agree with you. Question: How do we fix all this? Why not get all FAR 121 pilots opted out of Social Security and into another similiar government backed program where every pilot with at least 10 years longevity gets a pension benefit? Include a years of service vs. age metric that produces a retirement at around 20-25 years with 50% FAE. EVERY pilot would get this as a baseline, and for those working at more profitable airlines would also have a B fund or stock retirement benefits. This would be available if we simply patterned what railroad employees have. Airlines have exceeded the importance of railroads in this country and meet all the standards for which rail got this benefit in the first place. While we're doing this it would be easy to roll back the clock and capture a benefit for all the pilots who have retired in the last 10 years, or maybe longer. BUT, you can't get anybody interested in that because we have to deal with age 60 retirement. That carrot dangled in front of the soon to be retired is too much for them to see past. Their greedy need for immediate satisfaction is beyond sufficient enough for them to ignore this sort of effort.

 

[Shrek]

737 - What makes you think I haven't done 90% of the laundry list you supplied. I am not a silver-spooned kid that is wet behind the ears and I didn't know that super-big words from graduate school is required on FI. Take a pill before you have chest pains bubba.

God forbid there be a pilot out there that actually wants to have a different opinion about the age 60 retirement question.

I highly doubt you would have such strong opinions if we ever met in real life.

There are PLENTY of pilots young AND "experienced" that have my point of view on such a divisive question. YUP about 70%.

 

[B737Dvr]

irony

Flopgut is, i believe, on the verge of the tip of the iceberg that will soon hit the industry. I believe in several things:
1. there has got to be a better way. we can arrive at this if key principles from regulatory, management, labor and government would get together, brainstorm and stay locked up in a room until a solution is found. but unfortunately this wont happen because pilots at large are so divided that no cohesive front can be found, and also there is no big special interest group that cares, and you wont get any senator off of any committee until they theirselves are trapped in an airplane for 11 hours or miss a flight because of a work job action or slowdown.....when these guys are affected directly is usually when you get direct pro-activity out of them.
2. eventually the tide turns, and this industry gets re-regulated in some form or shape, either in its entirety or partly. funny thing, i bet the authors of this de-regulation never would have thought that it would have produced a landscape of lesser airlines that are run by people so cut-throat that it would make stalin and hitler proud! in the meanwhile, we have majors stepping over the RJ ranks flowing "down" while they complain about the RJ ruining the industry. We get the 2000's version of lorenzo purposefully running a money losing operation to bleed hawaiian and aloha to death, so that they minute either capitulates, he can raise prices and rein victorious while bastards like us bitch and moan and fight amongst ourselves. i guess no one said that capitalism had to have ethics....oh well....i just hope to be able to survive and have fun while im at it.

 

[B737Dvr]

well well

737 - What makes you think I haven't done 90% of the laundry list you supplied. I am not a silver-spooned kid that is wet behind the ears and I didn't know that super-big words from graduate school is required on FI. Take a pill before you have chest pains bubba.

God forbid there be a pilot out there that actually wants to have a different opinion about the age 60 retirement question.

I highly doubt you would have such strong opinions if we ever met in real life.

There are PLENTY of pilots young AND "experienced" that have my point of view on such a divisive question. YUP about 70%.

Shrekie,...opinions are fine, you just kept on and added insult to injury with your judgements, which i guess you are free to contribute, but i doubt highly that you would be as judgmental when you yourself are much older.

I dont understand what you mean by my not having such strong opinions if we ever met in real life....huh? what exactly do you mean by that?

 

[AC560]

funny thing, i bet the authors of this de-regulation never would have thought that it would have produced a landscape of lesser airlines that are run by people so cut-throat that it would make stalin and hitler proud!

Interesting read by Alfred Kahn[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1] [/SIZE][/FONT]former Chairmen of the CAB under Carter.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/AirlineDeregulation.html

 

[Regul8r]

I'll bet you settled on this in your 21st year. How many upgrades did you bypass before then?

10-20 years? Come on, man, how many pilots would this philosophy remove from the decision making process?

It opened my eyes too. Just learned it last month in a Human Factors refresher course. It doesn't remove any pilot from the decision making process, but rather, it highlights the point that a) Some people learn quicker than others, and b) This isn't a career for seat warmers

 

[svcta]

It opened my eyes too. Just learned it last month in a Human Factors refresher course. It doesn't remove any pilot from the decision making process, but rather, it highlights the point that a) Some people learn quicker than others, and b) This isn't a career for seat warmers

Reg, or Leonard Smalls, my eyes are not opened to anything other than the fact that you fell for some HR crap. To be effective with aeronautical decision making takes 20 years?

Do your friends call you Lenny? Oh, that's right, you ain't got no friends.

 

[Oh-ryan]

It opened my eyes too. Just learned it last month in a Human Factors refresher course. It doesn't remove any pilot from the decision making process, but rather, it highlights the point that a) Some people learn quicker than others, and b) This isn't a career for seat warmers

I too am gonna have to call BS on needing 10 or 20 years to develope sound decision making skills. Yes, it certainly helps, but the majority of active duty military pilots flying operational missions have less than 10 years doing it. I'd even wager to say a large chunk have less than 5 years doing it. You tell them that when they are trying to avoid manpads, small arms fire, and trying to land a plane on a moving ship at night that they do not have the necessary years or hours of flying to make sound decisions about their job. What a bunch of hogwash. If what the "experts" claim were true, the military would be putting them in the dirt pretty regularly since a lot of these young kids are in single seat aircraft with no one to back them up.

No, this is not another "military vs civilian" thread. I am just trying to point out what I consider to be a flaw in this 10-20 theory. I am sure there are many civilian examples that can support my claim as well... I just don't happen to have any as all of my flying has been done in haze grey airplanes.

 

[Hamburger]

I'm curious...Any guys for the change out there happen to have children that are regional or new hire major pilots?

What do you say to them about this?
"Well son, I know you followed in my footsteps, and it's the hope of all parents that their children prosper and have as good of or better life than they had. I know you want to provide a good life for your wife and my grandchildren. I know you've really slugged it out with low paying jobs for a lot of years, paying your dues so that someday you can have the kind of job and paycheck I did when you were young. The thing is, you and your family are going to have to add another five years to that number becuase I still want more. I'm sure you understand, you are nowhere near as talented or deserving a pilot as I was at your age, (how can you take yourself seriously as a pilot? you fly an RJ and listen to an ipod!), you really shouldn't feel entitled to anything. I'm almost ashamed that my son is a whiner that wants to have the same opportunities in his career that he watched me enjoy as he was growing up."

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I'm curious...Any guys for the change out there happen to have children that are regional or new hire major pilots?

What do you say to them about this?
"Well son, I know you followed in my footsteps, and it's the hope of all parents that their children prosper and have as good of or better life than they had. I know you want to provide a good life for your wife and my grandchildren. I know you've really slugged it out with low paying jobs for a lot of years, paying your dues so that someday you can have the kind of job and paycheck I did when you were young. The thing is, you and your family are going to have to add another five years to that number becuase I still want more. I'm sure you understand, you are nowhere near as talented or deserving a pilot as I was at your age, (how can you take yourself seriously as a pilot? you fly an RJ and listen to an ipod!), you really shouldn't feel entitled to anything. I'm almost ashamed that my son is a whiner that wants to have the same opportunities in his career that he watched me enjoy as he was growing up."

Talent and deserving never had anything to do with upgrading under the "old rules".

As someone else mentioned, a dozen factors will affect when one gets to upgrade. The price of Jet-A will probably have more impact on your time in the left/right seat than a change to the mandatory retirement age.

 

[CopilotDoug]

redundant post

 

[Flopgut]

Look at what our country/economy has created and supported: The space program, world air cargo giants FEDEX and UPS, wildly succesful fractional jet operators, aircracft manfacturers like Cessna and Boeing, the most powerful and sophisticated military on Earth. Then look at our legacy airlines: De-regulated into permanent financial dismay with hundreds of thousands of employees ground up like chum so some dork can fly somewhere cheap! It's total BS! He!!, BA wants to buy AMR and break it up and Wall Street is cheering them on!? WTF over!? If we'd never de-regulated the US legacies would look just about like US cargo. Is there any EU company out there that could buy FEDEX? Nope. It's time to assert ourselves and get back our pay and dignity; ingredients are falling into place to make it happen. However, we have a bunch of old A-holes who would sooner accept working longer in place of any REAL improvement! Of course they could care less that most junior folks think it sucks because it meets perfectly with their emotional investment that everybody has to be wrong but them! Plus, it's a windfall for them so they don't care.

And of course there's SWA, who account for at least half of this debacle. Those clowns could care less about anybody but themselves for the most part. They've just GOT to be different. Anything that screws up the profession helps them.

We should be pushing for a comprehensive retirement plan for ALL 121 pilots and a renewed level of career security! NOT some stupid, stop gap age change fluke that does nothing for 90% of US pilots!

 

[pipe]

Look at what our country/economy has created and supported: The space program, world air cargo giants FEDEX and UPS, wildly succesful fractional jet operators, aircracft manfacturers like Cessna and Boeing, the most powerful and sophisticated military on Earth. Then look at our legacy airlines: De-regulated into permanent financial dismay with hundreds of thousands of employees ground up like chum so some dork can fly somewhere cheap! It's total BS! He!!, BA wants to buy AMR and break it up and Wall Street is cheering them on!? WTF over!? If we'd never de-regulated the US legacies would look just about like US cargo. Is there any EU company out there that could buy FEDEX? Nope. It's time to assert ourselves and get back our pay and dignity; ingredients are falling into place to make it happen. However, we have a bunch of old A-holes who would sooner accept working longer in place of any REAL improvement! Of course they could care less that most junior folks think it sucks because it meets perfectly with their emotional investment that everybody has to be wrong but them! Plus, it's a windfall for them so they don't care.

And of course there's SWA, who account for at least half of this debacle. Those clowns could care less about anybody but themselves for the most part. They've just GOT to be different. Anything that screws up the profession helps them.

We should be pushing for a comprehensive retirement plan for ALL 121 pilots and a renewed level of career security! NOT some stupid, stop gap age change fluke that does nothing for 90% of US pilots!

WINNER!!!! WINNER!!!

Top post 2007.

PIPE

 

[AC560]

If we'd never de-regulated the US legacies would look just about like US cargo.

Fred Smith "[FONT=arial,helvetica,univers]That is a very big part of the FedEx story which has hardly ever been commented upon: The parallel effect of the relaxation of government regulation which allowed FedEx to begin operations to begin with, in what was really a loophole. And then it was codified when airlines were deregulated in '77-'78. And then in 1980, the federal government deregulated interstate transportation. So it was [deregulation], much of which we induced."
[/FONT]

 

[Chest Rockwell]

And of course there's SWA, who account for at least half of this debacle. Those clowns could care less about anybody but themselves for the most part. They've just GOT to be different. Anything that screws up the profession helps them.

Flopmeister,

You should know better than that. You maybe can make an argument for the wright amendment being the perfect storm for the initial startup. Until the last 8-10 years SWA's overall market share was pretty insignificant. Up until the '95-96 timeframe, Herb was still very concerned that AA or DL may gang up and sell tickets at a loss to squash us. Boeing comes up with the NG and long-haul flying (flight longer than 2+30) become attractive. SWA had a smart and efficient business plan and the legacies got sloppy and fail to adjust, initially.

I spent my first 7-8 years here tolerating many who looked down upon us at SWA. Carried many pilots from legacies that did not reciiprocate (due to their management) and listen to them berate my airline after the free ride. Some here have taken pleasure in seeing the demise of the fortunes at some of the legacies, and for them I am ashamed. We both know the cyclical nature of this business and nearly everyone who has ever been able to boast of their high pay and benefits has lived to see it fall.

 

[Flopgut]

Chest: If legislation were proposed tommorrow that allowed foriegn ownership to take every single large narrow body and widebody aircraft from US airline control and move the associated flying jobs off shore, in exchange for an agreement that US and foriegn LCCs would not seek to enter each others' markets, you guys would support it. Period. I want every airline pilot to have a better career. You don't understand that and I'm tired of explaining it.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Chest: If legislation were proposed tomorrow that allowed foreign ownership to take every single large narrow body and wide body aircraft from US airline control and move the associated flying jobs off shore, in exchange for an agreement that US and foreign LC Cs would not seek to enter each others' markets, you guys would support it. Period. I want every airline pilot to have a better career. You don't understand that and I'm tired of explaining it.

Where does that come from. I understand that you and many others have constantly been lied to by your management. I don't expect you to understand that. I have had the opportunity to meet, speak with, and dine with all three CEOs since I have been with SWA. That has not happened here, yet. I fully understand the morals and motivation of my company's management. They don't go out and parade everything that they do that is above and beyond what anyone would expect. If it had not been SWA, someone else would have figured out how to outsmart the legacies. SWA is not the villain here (I know that I am biased). SWA grew up competing with the Chevy Suburban on short-haul flights, not any legacies. This company bent over back wards in an effort to not furlough anyone after 9-11, even after airplanes were parked. Show me one legacy that failed as a result of a large overlap in service with SWA(America West has always been the carrier that we most directly competed with). Wish all you want for the old CAB to handout guaranteed profitable routes, that is probably the only way you will see the good old days return.

I have listened over and over to how the next age 60 vote at SWA will be different...three strikes and your out on that one. The money/greed argument on each side is a wash. After the ICAO change there was no sound argument to keep it. Bad deal for the guys back in '59 and ever since. I am sure that there will be unforeseen negative and positive results of the rule change. Everyone should have known when they sign up for this gig that the rules in this business change occasionally.