Pilot forced to retire--Boo hoo! Freaking baby!

[PHXFLYR]

Give up the left seat pops....

There's a wonderful world full of things you can do BESIDES flying, while you still have a few good years left to enjoy them.

Seriously.


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Man,I wish I knew when you were going to turn 60/65. I'd like to re post this
when you start to beetch and moan about being showed the door. You geniues ever stop to think the guy actually liked to fly? I think he mentioned that in the article somewhere...

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

The good thing about a site like this is the viewpoints from all walks, that bad thing is the vast ignorance displayed by some who are not qualified to speak about certain matters and should be listening more!

The first post just blew my mind, and i believe certain other more experienced and qualified aviators weighed in with more sensible replies. They are right, these kids don't know any better, they come off an assembly line hop right into a turboprop or an RJ and inch closer and closer to the Boeings and Airbuses and then assume they know all there is to know and opine as if there couldnt possibly be more to something that a much more experienced person is doing!

This kid is representative of others like him who get up above FL180 and now assume they are on par with everyone else, and have no idea of what the &^%$ they are talking about and should be listening more and talking alot less.

but i digress......

i feel for some of these guys being forced out, especially those that were counting and working on their pensions only to have it taken away so close to retirement!
I am fortunate to have cut my teeth under ex pan am and eastern guys who were some of the sharpest minds and solid sticks i have ever seen. they did things on a daily basis and taught me things that you just dont see today very often. time has evolved and we now have automation, and rightly so in some respects it does a much better job. but the old timers taught me rules of thumb and tricks of the trade that i use daily to cross check what the FMS puts out. how invaluable is it to react quick to a last minute arrival change that requires definite action on your part to make crossing restrictions...all while the FMS is being programmed or computing?....how invaluable is it to know over the ocean way before the FMS does that you are going to have a map shift when you get back into OSV range and plan accordingly or how to check if an RTA calculation is off when told to exit a FIR at a precise time.....(kids, if you have no idea what im talking about, then this is where you listen and no talkie...hint hint)......rules of thumb that we are taught on our first times in new territory with very senior guys who are sharp but about to retire.....

a military guys pipped in with his 2 cents about a "love for what you do". he was quickly shot down with "have you walked a mile in my furloughed and conscessionary shoes"? these guys are both right! i count myself fortunate to truly love what i do, and the military guys need to understand that they will never be furloughed or out on the street with no money. likewise, they endure risks of life and being captured and detained and with little pay as compared to some civilian jobs, while us civilians will never come across that.

We all have our opinions, and we all have our share of the injustices to endure. there are some old greedy guys that give an RJ pilot comutting home hell.....and that is bullshyte!!!! and there are some RJ guys showing very little if any respect to guys that have blazened trails for them. these guys learn in a nice warm classroom what some old guys in early jets found out on the line with pax on board!!!

my hope is that in the future all walks can come together with a bit more understanding of the "other side" before weighing in (possibly tragically ingnorant-like) with their 2 cents.

like I said some guys need to be pushed along as their individual health indicates while others are at the top of their game and sharper than most of us. until we have a definitive way of deciphering between these two, unfortunately this debate will go on.

Like antoine de saint exupery said: "when a man dies, a world dies with him"
....when a sharp old guy is forced out, decades of experience goes with him, yes he does open up a spot, but i for one would like for him to be able to stay for as long as he can to share more of what is in his head.
lets face it, we all one day will face our last flights.....and for those who truly love to fly would you like it to be under their current circumstances, or under your own?


for the record, i have 3 furlough letters and 4 uniforms hanging in my closet at home. I have flown corporate, airline and heavy cargo so i too know the pain and frustrations of the industry.

I envy your writing skills...Great post!

:beer:


PHXFLYR

 

[crashpad]

This isn't about money. Flying is obviously a major part of this veterans' life, and that undoubtably makes him a professional who is the best at what he does.
Sadly, what stands out from the first page of this thread is the degree of self-centered arrogance which permiates the lower strata of todays younger airline pilots. It's as much a statement about our society as our industry. No more solidarity among pilots...and why not? Captain Wolfe risked his life in war to serve our country and has a bond with any pilot who also served. How can someone of his caliber expect that same level of respect and honor from pilots who skip their way up the ladder while living at home and playing with their X-box.
No FLYDAPLANE, you are the 'Freaking Baby'!!! You and the thousands of sapplings like you. Your time's coming too smarty guy. When it does and you reflect back on you efforts, unlike Captain Wolfe, you'll realize just how insignificant your life has been.

 

[m80drvr]

Man,I wish I knew when you were going to turn 60/65. I'd like to re post this
when you start to beetch and moan about being showed the door. You geniues ever stop to think the guy actually liked to fly? I think he mentioned that in the article somewhere...

PHXFLYR

NO one told him cannot fly anymore. The FAA didn't pull his ATP just cause he turned 60. Your arguement is a little simplistic.

 

[SIG600]

a military guys pipped in with his 2 cents about a "love for what you do". he was quickly shot down with "have you walked a mile in my furloughed and conscessionary shoes"? these guys are both right! i count myself fortunate to truly love what i do, and the military guys need to understand that they will never be furloughed or out on the street with no money. likewise, they endure risks of life and being captured and detained and with little pay as compared to some civilian jobs, while us civilians will never come across that.

Excellent post 737... however the statement I've highlighted couldn't be further from the truth. I know plenty of guys that it's happened to for various reasons. I will concede however that the skills you've gained set you up for hiring on the civilian side should you be shown the door (for honorable reasons), and that if you've got enough time in service (prior to retirement) and are booted, they owe you severence.

Sounds to me like the one thing you haven't done yet is sit on on reserve or live out a furlough or try to figure out how to get by for another five years as an FO on a payscale that was negotiated when age 65 had just been dealt with "once and for all" by the FAA . . . . yet you sure have an opinion.

Maybe you ought to shut your pie hole about something you obviously don't understand the ramifications of. It's not about "love of flying" it's about our livelihood. If these 60 year-old "MEEEE Generation" types want to keep flying "for the love of flying" they can fly corporate jets until they're flying 'em in Depends. Notice that they don't want to fly as FO's . . . . nope. TGhey want the dollars, and they don't care that a furloughed guy may have to wait another five years to get called back simply because these guys want a windfall.


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First off... show me a pilot thats not a "ME" type in 121 flying that wants to help out the greater good. It's a big reason I got out 121 and into the military.. that and the furloughs, wage cuts etc. that you claim I know nothing about. My dad's been at NWA for 26 years... why don't you ask him about all those things, as well as pay cuts, pensions, changing airlines 4 different times, and getting the short end of the stick on senioirity list mergers three different times. If it sucks that much for you, find another job.

 

[Ty Webb]

It doesn't suck for me, Chief. It sucks for those who are FO's . . . When you are a 121 pilot directly affected by this ruling, come back and talk to us.

PS., congratulations to your dad for a long, safe and successful career. Hope he's enjoying retirement.


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[SIG600]

It doesn't suck for me, Chief. It sucks for those who are FO's . . . When you are a 121 pilot directly affected by this ruling, come back and talk to us.

PS., congratulations to your dad for a long, safe and successful career. Hope he's enjoying retirement.


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Again I got out of 121 for reasons expressed.

And he got F'd on his retirement, like thousands of others.

Edit: Whoa... you said it "sucks for others." So you're telling me that you're actually concerned about the guys underneith you? Cast him in bronze and raise a statue... you're the first I've met.

 

[Esprit]

Point is, the guy knew he was retiring at age 60 for how long now? The guy needs to adjust his lifestyle accordingly. Maybe he should have sold that vacation home or traded his car in for something more economical. I myself got downgraded and have had to survive on 60% less pay and less 401k contributions. You won't hear me whining come retirement because of the changes I'm making today (age 37).

Esprit

 

[B737Dvr]

say again?!?!?!

Hey, 737.......it's a miracle that we all survived those 59 year-olds when their 60 year-old superiors retired. Close one. Shudder to think that there are 55 year-olds in left seats, too. I'll buy a few stories from the baby boomers, but I'm sick and dam tired of hearing that the "kids" can't do it as well as they can. The generation that shouldn't "trust anyone over 30" has turned in to the generation won't relinquish control to anyone under 50.

These old guys that were flying paying pax with a couple hundred hours back in the 60s don't trust someone with thousands of hours now to do the same thing. Why is that? Once again: I don't buy the "because I'm still better than you are" routine.

you are getting bogged down in literacy and missing the spirit of the point.
the point is simply that whether you are 55 or 59 or 65, if you are being forced out while you are still sharp and solid....that is the tragedy that i am talking about. until there is a definitive way for the industry to weed out those that should retire physically and or mentally, we are sadly going to debate this while we still lose people.....again...one of those injustices that i mentioned previously.

Im sorry to also inform you that no ERAU or UND can sell you what they take with them! I bet you are sick and tired of hearing that "kids cant do it like they can" unfortunately they are right and wrong. they are right about that when talking to snot nosed brats who dont know better. their own ignorance and flat out disrespect are their biggest downfall and stand in the way of their own evolution. but there are those "kids" who do go through, catch a few lucky breaks and do arrive at the big leagues with AN OPEN EAR AND A CLOSED MOUTH. These seem to be the minority though, which is why you hear alot of what you hate to hear, and I'd bet that these kids get treated a whole lot better and best of all....get a "front row seat to the best on the job training from some of the world's best teachers" of their life!

your reference to the generation that was trusted but now doesnt trust is right on. Someone else just made a post about the reason why and it has to do with society as a whole. Unfortunately the majority of kids today ruin it for the rest by their lack of respect, discipline, and up bringing. today you hear of kids shooting each other in school, parents that think their kids are right and teachers who dont have any authority anymore. this crap didnt exist back in their day. back in their day the greatest generation, were given command of B-17's with less than 500TT and told to go bomb Germany. Their training took place among bullets and bombs. The korean, vietnam vets had their training when flight envelopes werent as defined as they are today. these guys feel that they could handle a jet better than today's pilots because when and if the automation craps out, then are left with what they learned on...a stick and rudder. that may come across as BS, and when you apply it to the masses they are right, i believe. now on an individual basis, they are wrong because i believe that there are sharp kids out there that would fly circles around these older guys with their familiarity with automation and FMS's....i mean you guys grew up with PS2 and Windows....they grew up with rocks and chutes and ladders!!! lol....

kidding aside tho......older guys should be aware that not all kids are rotten, and if you think today's behavior is BS from the (old and greedy)....you would never make it through what they had to deal with when they got started.....they flew with skygods and werent allowed to touch anything!

This is a hard time for us all, it is a rough passing of the baton and there is hurt on both sides.......it just makes it worse when people who havent been around long and can still tell you to the hour what their total time is at any given time come along and say "youve had 30 years to prepare for your retirement, im sick of this BS".....yeah, they had 30 years, but in no time were they expecting to lose 30 years worth of pension investments 2-3 years before retirement idiot!

let me speak in terms that the author of this thread can understand. He's an FO i think on some turboprop. Say you are boarding and the Captain is inside getting paperwork and you are doing your thing in the right seat. a little boy of say 10 years boards along with his mother on the way to see nana...he looks up there and says i wanna see the pilot! (doesnt politely ask, just almost demands it) he sees you, and just about as you are going to welcome him in your cockpit and show him around and take pleasure in doing so......he says to you: You're not the PILOT, youre just a copilot, I want to talk to the REAL PILOT.

Ignorance is bliss isn't it? Not so cute when his mother doesn't correct him on the spot, ....and downright disgusting when it comes from someone sharing the flight levels with you.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

You'd be surprised at the things captains can't do these days. FO's go crying to the chief pilot who backs them up 100% in fear of any lawsuit. The regionals have destroyed the career along with the afirmative action hiring practices of the majors. This career has become a joke, and it happened on the "old guys" watch.