Perspectives on an AirTran and SWA merger

[UALX727]

Chase,

Here are some reasons I can think of that an Airtran/SWA link-up may happen in the future:

1. Out of the 20 top O/D markets in the U.S., Southwest is in 19 of them. The one city that they lack in that group is Atlanta. SWA could get into Atlanta in a BIG way....

2. AirTran is big in BWI with 15%of the market.....Southwest has around 50% of the market in BWI....a SWA/Airtran hook-up would give SWA excellent pricing power with 65% marketshare.
Similiarly, AirTran has a large presence in Florida, particularly in Orlando, where SWA is the major player. Basically, as a rule, the bigger the marketshare an airline has in a city....the more they can charge passengers. Over time, this increased pricing power will pay for the cost of any merger/buyout.

3. AirTran has established 30% marketshare in MKE, with expectations to grow even more in the future. SWA may consider this a threat to the MDW operation, as AirTran attempts to draw leisure pax from the north Chicago suburbs. AirTran billboards are all along the highways in Northern Illinois.

4. Carribean operations now at AirTran which may compliment SWA ops.

5. 54 737-700's currently with many more 737 firm orders in the future at bargain basement pricing. The 717's, who knows...probably phased out over time.

6. SWA will take out a lower CASM, growing competitor. For years SWA had the lowest CASM around, now AirTran's CASM has surpassed SWA's.

That's just a quick summary of the top of my head...who knows. I tend to think that it makes sense...but other guys I fly with are not convinced. In the end we will be the last to know.

As far as seniority integration goes......I believe it will go to arbitration if it ever does go down. I am sure that the AirTran pilots will welcome a more friendly employee culture over there than we currently have now. FWIW......

 

[waveflyer]

And reasons AT pilots would want to be Swa.

1- culture: it's really nice to work for people who care about you and aren't blatantly trying to f^ck you

2- money

3- schedules/ best i've had

4- domiciles- OAK/PHX/LAS/MDW/DAL/HOU/BWI/MCO
it's nice to have coast to coast choices of where to live

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on the Swa side- please tell me what AT offers any Swa pilot similar to above. I can't think of anything- but I don't know anything about the inner workings at AT
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positive for Swa is OBVIOUSLY Atlanta - which could lead to growth at wn.

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negatives are cultural- most Morris pilots are pretty happy - but I've met some who still have issues- now think outside of the pilot box- will FAs be happy? Will gate agents? Mechanics? The wn culture is a LOT more than just pilots.
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that said- Im a pilot, not a CEO -
IF GK says he's doing the deal- I will work my arse off to make sure every Tran pilot is welcome and part of the family and make sure greed on either side doesn't kill the golden goose.

 

[Cometman]

And how many pilots do you have furloughed at that Fractional you work at...NetJets, Rajflyboy? 500 is it?

Go look at what the DOT definition of a Major is; then you can accept the fact that you'll never be part of one.

Next time try to at least get the pilot count right in your clueless posts. With the new hire classes, the total count is more like 1700.

I never said I work for Netjets or any other fractional. OK, 1700 pilots instead of the 1500 I mentioned. Now you are really big. However, I would let Republic know about the additional 200. Maybe they will consider that when combining the list.

 

[Kharma Police]

Hey Man,

I hope you don't think that even 2 % of the replies on this thread actually represent the attitude of AirTran pilots.

I don't want to single anyone out but ... 'Karma police' was probably told to pound sand by a SWA interview board. If he understood the meaning of 'Karma' he'd be curled up in a corner with a tin foil hat on.

I'm surprised PCL hasn't shown up yet. He despises SWAPA for purely ALPA reasons. Unfortunately he has some pull. Fortunately he is probably busy smearing rogaine on his upper lip to accelerate the beginning of his bushy 'Prater-stache'

It will never happen. Fonaro is an ex US Air idiot. He brought his buddies with him. However; if it does ever happen you'd be better of firing every mouth breather except the pilots and mechanics and allow a fair intergration of two great employee groups.

Glad to see AirTran Management's Useful Idiot is back. Well done Dick, you managed to slide in a jab at ATN ALPA with your post, the only entity that would try and protect you when SWAPA or any other airline tries to steamroller you. Your lack of respect for your fellow employees also shows your character. I know you think everything would be rosy and the grass would be greener if SWA bought us but I'm guessing you would still be miserable.

As for me and my choice of airlines, I'm from Atlanta and I didn't want to commute. That left me with two choices. AirTran interviewed and hired me first.

For the Southwest pilots, I will try and be more civil with my posts and not take the bait from the Southwest posers.

 

[chase]

Chase...very well written post. You seem very level headed and in touch with what's going on. The payrates you list are in fact current (except for the fact that a 12 yr FO tops out at a whopping $79 an hour). Those rates though will soon be replaced with a more "modern" scale unless a complete break down at the negotiating table occurs. Top Capt rates will rise to the $180-190 range and the FO scale will likely top $115-120+. If not, I believe you'll see 140+ aircraft parked indefinitely around our system. A $10-30 an hour raise with your company is not worth losing a faster upgrade, my relative seniority, or my beloved 717. My opinion...take it with a grain of salt.

I do, however, feel that both groups truly respect one another and would work together to achieve common ground should an unlikely merger take place.

Kharma,

No offense taken...post whatever you like in any manner, the readers will make the judgement on the value of it as they do with any poster. Glad you don't have to commute...I currently do and it is not the preferred plan but the lot I have in life but I'm not complaining...life is much better for me than I deserve:beer:

ATLpilot,

Like you, I'm hopeful that a new AAI contract can be worked out and that you get what you ask for in terms of dollars and cents as well as work rule changes. It is often the latter that gets less focus, rigs, per diem, scheduling flexibility, incentives, and then 401K, profitsharing etc. but hopefully those are being addressed to AAI pilot's liking also.

Such an increase in pay for AAI's pilots would take away the incentive that many might have toward supporting a SWA/AAI merger, no doubt.

I think the brand loyalty among your pilots appears to be pretty high and operating independently vs. a merger makes sense to them.

I don't think there is a groundswell of "merger mania" on SWAPA's side...we are just reading the tea leaves that GK is leaving out there, similar to the recent comments from your CEO.

Only time will tell and how negotiations go as well as if there are discussions going on behind the scenes between AAI/SWA...I know of none as said earlier.

Thanks for engaging with your perspective.

Dicko....your words of caution are noted and as an old timer on FI I've learned to weed out the bombastic and mentally challenged replies from those like yours and others who can stay focus on the thread's intent...it is somewhat predictable but also entertaining in a "can't resist the car-crash sneak a peek" kind of way.

I write for the sane poster and more for the lurkers who are looking for insight (like me) and info on the topics they are interested in...I suspect there are more lurkers interested into the thoughts of the two pilot groups for various reasons and would hope to coax some of those who belong to the two groups to post their opinions, that is my intent.

There are also just under 200 SWA poolies that would be impacted by any merger as it would most likely slow their time before being called by SWA for a future right seat but on the other hand it might lead to more rapid growth if connections could be made to ATL and other AAI cities....all unknown entities but another group that is watching and wondering I'm sure.

Me speculating about your pilot group or UAL, CAL, DAL or others in which I'm not a part of is indeed a waste of my time but asking for their opinions or yours about matters that directly impacts the specific group is very worthwhile I believe.....but this is a public forum and one gets all kinds, including my worthless drivel

UALX, (not sure if you are an AAI...maybe from the X part I figured)

You present some strong "bean-counter" facts (the same points have been made by SWA pilots to me about why it makes sense and they are valid points) that make a merger smart from a bottom line standpoint in the eyes of some but the issues that would impact the pilots are merging of culture, seniority integration (expectations), response from ALPA/SWAPA, etc. and those are the issues that I'm more interested in.

There will be some on both sides (if a merger were to go on) that would bury their heads in the sand and kick and scream but if it was to occur, the remaining ones of us would be left to make it as fair an integration, hopefully without arbitrators but understanding current A&M rules and McCaskill-Bond guidelines that would end up with a successful merger and integration.

I think there are enough sane folks at both airlines to discuss the issues...that is my point in starting the thread.

I realize we (those on here) at the bottom of the food chain are not impacting the direction or likelihood of a merger at all but being more educated from both perspectives I think helps the debate and lays out some issues we can ask those who will be impacting those changes if they were to occur.

Thanks again to those who provided meaningful comments.

 

[UALX727]

Sorry Chase, yeah, I'm an AirTran pilot.

My take on it is a lot of f.o.'s from AirTran would welcome the move. As a junior captain so would I, as long as the integration is fair. As far as the top 1/3rd of the list, that is where there would be the most resistence in my opinion.

One thing I bet...the 2 pilot group's won't be able to come to an agreement and it will go to arbitration if it ever happens with fences around ATL and MKE to protect the AirTran captain seats....and likely fenced off SWA cities to protect your pilots as well.

 

[Cometman]

And reasons AT pilots would want to be Swa.

1- culture: it's really nice to work for people who care about you and aren't blatantly trying to f^ck you

2- money

3- schedules/ best i've had

4- domiciles- OAK/PHX/LAS/MDW/DAL/HOU/BWI/MCO
it's nice to have coast to coast choices of where to live

----------------

on the Swa side- please tell me what AT offers any Swa pilot similar to above. I can't think of anything- but I don't know anything about the inner workings at AT
-----------------

positive for Swa is OBVIOUSLY Atlanta - which could lead to growth at wn.

------------------

negatives are cultural- most Morris pilots are pretty happy - but I've met some who still have issues- now think outside of the pilot box- will FAs be happy? Will gate agents? Mechanics? The wn culture is a LOT more than just pilots.
------------------

that said- Im a pilot, not a CEO -
IF GK says he's doing the deal- I will work my arse off to make sure every Tran pilot is welcome and part of the family and make sure greed on either side doesn't kill the golden goose.

I wonder why nobody can answer this post? Everybody can see how Airtran pilots would benefit but nobody can say how SWA will benefit.

It appears that all the benefits would be to Airtran and nothing to SWA. Therefore a staple would be the right way to go. If they do not want that then they go the way of F9.

 

[Kharma Police]

I wonder why nobody can answer this post? Everybody can see how Airtran pilots would benefit but nobody can say how SWA will benefit.

It appears that all the benefits would be to Airtran and nothing to SWA. Therefore a staple would be the right way to go. If they do not want that then they go the way of F9.

Okay, now I'm convinced you are an airline pilot poser, however, I will answer your question. Southwest would gain access to the worlds busiest airport, international operations, very cheap options on new 737s, more slots in LGA and DCA and most importantly eliminate a competitor. Again, if you were in any way involved in this industry these things would have been obvious.

 

[scrub]

Wow!! You guys spend alot of time discussing something that is not going to happen!!
A lifetime spent in aviation--$15, 15 min spent on flightinfo--priceless!!!!

 

[chase]

Sorry Chase, yeah, I'm an AirTran pilot.

My take on it is a lot of f.o.'s from AirTran would welcome the move. As a junior captain so would I, as long as the integration is fair. As far as the top 1/3rd of the list, that is where there would be the most resistence in my opinion.

One thing I bet...the 2 pilot group's won't be able to come to an agreement and it will go to arbitration if it ever happens with fences around ATL and MKE to protect the AirTran captain seats....and likely fenced off SWA cities to protect your pilots as well.

UALX,

Thanks for the clarification. I too fall into your similar seniority here at SWA. Your assessment of where the resistance would come from is similar to what I envision at least from the F9 experience and most mergers.

I would agree with your 2nd assessment that the pilot groups would not find common ground except for the fact these are two different very different (in a good way) cultures from most airlines.

Cynicism is no stranger among some AAI or SWA pilots as is distrust when it comes to such business decisions. That being said, I also know 80% of our pilots are pretty level headed and want to do what is best for the long term health of the company. I don't have a crystal ball but would hope that reasonable persons could find the common ground.

Any possible merger presents downsides for some, upsides for others...the same can be said for new contracts.

I think we all agree that a merger is not preferred for personal reasons but if it becomes a business decision that GK makes and one that SWAPA can not block (we have no language in our contract that prevents it) , both groups I hope could step up and bargain reasonably....making everyone happy won't happen but fair and equitable is certainly doable for a majority at both SWA and AAI I would hope.

If the business logic is there for a merger and it can explained properly, some resistance will fall away but as you said, senior pilots or other demographically targeted groups who perceive their year group is being unfairly impacted will make the most objections and understandably so.

Waveflyer,

Good summary and I think Kharma (excellent points) presents some of the points I'm hearing also that make a deal a good deal for SWA, not just one for AAI.

No CEO here either and your attitude is like mine...I fly the airplane and will make any new employees welcome that comes to SWA and learn from them also on how to make more people fly at SWA and do it safely and efficiently.

I would expect from the AAI pilots I've met, they would do the same but I realize there is lot in between that could make for some tough sledding if a merger was to go through.