Perspectives on an AirTran and SWA merger

[chase]

To those AirTran pilots wishing to comment:

I'm seriously and respectfully asking for some pro/con points, concerns from AirTran pilots expressed unemotionally as to any possible merger/acquisitions of AirTran and SWA.

As a SWA CA I have my own perspective and about the topic and have discussed it with many other SWA pilots in lounges and on SWAPA forums. However, I would be very interested in what the thoughts are from the line flying AirTran pilots who may visit this forum.

Let me say I have the utmost respect for Citrus pilots, the product they deliver and their professionalism I've seen while commuting on them and while operating out of many of the same airports. A great group of pilots in my opinion.

I'm not privy to any inside SWA info nor trying to flamebait for entertainment purposes but rather interested in the line perspective on the various topics:

1. Integration expectations, what's tolerable and what is not.
2. Fences (if any around domiciles, dealing with the 717 differences and your recommendations if a merger was to go forward)
3. Timing of discussions, i.e. would you prefer to get a contract in hand or would you prefer to have a merger offer on the table and move in that direction
4. Existing codeshares and their impact
5. ALPA representation vs. SWAPA representation
6. Culture integration and how best to blend the best of both cultures
7. Business model integrations and how the two airlines differ and how to deal with those differences if a merger was to go forward
8. Whether you would support in general terms a merger of these two airlines.

I know there are a lot of emotions that are expressed on FI and expect some to spill over even with the request to keep it professional but honestly not having many contacts with AirTran pilots other than commuters, I would be interested in your perspectives.

Thanks for commenting in advance.

 

[Fubijaakr]

chase,

IMHO, Alaska/SWA or Alaska/Air Tran are BOTH better fits and viable mergers than SWA/Air Tran.

 

[funnyman12]

I have heard SWA is 450 pilots fat. My largest fear is the 2 airlines would merge and after shedding shared routes, the combined airline would be 1000 pilots fat and Airtran would be on the receiving end of that mess. Both airlines are doing well and both pilots groups have a potenitally long career ahead. Airtran is smaller and younger and that poses a larger risk and potential larger benifit of remaining a stand alone carrier. I was hired at Airtran a little over 3 years ago and came here understanding what the risks were. The obvious risk is the airline fails, currently we are a strong airlines with lots of room to grow both domestically and internationally. Due to the growth potential, there is the chance i'm with an airline that will be very successful. Due to Airtran being in this position, I believe a ratio integration with fences would be fair. 7:1, 6:1 (depending on amount of SWA pilots). If the airlines were to merge I would only be in favor if the airlines had a plan of growth in mind more than a consolidation. It is all about keeping my job....In no way should Airtran pilots lose their jobs because another airline has too many pilots. In my opinion Airtran pilots culture is in line with SWA pilots, management, on the other hand, are total opposites. The management groups of both airlines NEED to sell a merger to us rather than force it. If it is not in the interest of Airtran pilots we will prevent it at all costs. Airtran has proved in many locations (BWI wil have 72 departures this summer and is our highest yeild market) that we can successfully compete with SWA. For the fall schedule SWA is cutting many routes that are shared with Airtran.

 

[Mike man]

SWA/AirTran merger pro...it will never happen

 

[Kharma Police]

It really doesn't matter what we think, it's what the arbitrator thinks. I know the SWAPA pilots would go out of their way to screw us or any other airline (think F9) and we would never agree to it. So, if will don't like what SWAPA tries to sell us, we will tell them to go pound sand and wait for the mediators decision.

 

[Cometman]

It really doesn't matter what we think, it's what the arbitrator thinks. I know the SWAPA pilots would go out of their way to screw us or any other airline (think F9) and we would never agree to it. So, if will don't like what SWAPA tries to sell us, we will tell them to go pound sand and wait for the mediators decision.

That is why it will never happen. You either take what they give you and be glad that you were offered it or you join the ranks of F9 with Republic.
Your decision if it ever is offered. You should hope you get the chance to take the offer.

 

[Kharma Police]

That is why it will never happen. You either take what they give you and be glad that you were offered it or you join the ranks of F9 with Republic.
Your decision if it ever is offered. You should hope you get the chance to take the offer.

LOL! Thanks! I'm guessing you are new and at the bottom of the list. Man, I can't wait to go back to LBB and ELP! Have fun raising the gear for me tough guy!

 

[SWA/FO]

It really doesn't matter what we think, it's what the arbitrator thinks. I know the SWAPA pilots would go out of their way to screw us or any other airline (think F9) and we would never agree to it. So, if will don't like what SWAPA tries to sell us, we will tell them to go pound sand and wait for the mediators decision.

The F9 guys screwed themselves. We never got past first base, they had their legs so tight together no amount of KY would help. Denver base protection (forever!) $3000 a month for F9 furloughed Pilots (forever!), Medical coverage forever......GMAFB :laugh: Who was bankrupt?

 

[Cometman]

LOL! Thanks! I'm guessing you are new and at the bottom of the list. Man, I can't wait to go back to LBB and ELP! Have fun raising the gear for me tough guy!

I will never pull the gear for you. You might pull gear for an F9 guy or mabe for one of the RJ pilots.

 

[airlinepilot]

Not so fast

It really doesn't matter what we think, it's what the arbitrator thinks. I know the SWAPA pilots would go out of their way to screw us or any other airline (think F9) and we would never agree to it. So, if will don't like what SWAPA tries to sell us, we will tell them to go pound sand and wait for the mediators decision.

When you say we (SWAPA) were going to screw F9 you are not telling the truth, are not very well informed, or are just trying to create flame bait. F9 wanted a relative SL. They wanted their number 1 to be #2 at SWA, their #2 would be #4 etc. They were totally unwilling to try and work anything other than that. They also wanted $4000 a month for all pilots on furlough in addition to COBRA payments for an indefinite period, another issue they would not budge from.

I don't think anyone at SWAPA expects a staple of any kind and would provide a big fence for Atlanta (and our Doms also). It's post like yours that don't paint a fair picture. I fly Air Tran every week and it's is a great airline. If you want to stir hate and discontent then go some place else.

 

[Kharma Police]

The F9 guys screwed themselves. We never got past first base, they had their legs so tight together no amount of KY would help. Denver base protection (forever!) $3000 a month for F9 furloughed Pilots (forever!), Medical coverage forever......GMAFB :laugh: Who was bankrupt?

Amazing!!!, you forgot the word "staple" in your rhetoric, must of slipped your mind... The fact of the matter is you are overstaffed, not growing and your costs are rising, the F9 guys knew it. They saw the writing on the wall that they would be furloughed and they made the tough decision to give you guys the finger and merge with a commuter. It's amazing how you guys are still upset with that decision.

We have what you desperately need, a ton of gates in ATL. You cowboys need to grow to survive, some of you know that already but don't want voice your opinions to the other Jonestown members. Now, you can either play nice with us or the arbitrator will hand down a decision that you may or may not be happy with. Either way, don't be surprised when we give you the finger too.

 

[Quimby]

Amazing!!!, you forgot the word "staple" in your rhetoric, must of slipped your mind... The fact of the matter is you are overstaffed, not growing and your costs are rising, the F9 guys knew it. They saw the writing on the wall that they would be furloughed and they made the tough decision to give you guys the finger and merge with a commuter. It's amazing how you guys are still upset with that decision.

We have what you desperately need, a ton of gates in ATL. You cowboys need to grow to survive, some of you know that already but don't want voice your opinions to the other Jonestown members. Now, you can either play nice with us or the arbitrator will hand down a decision that you may or may not be happy with. Either way, don't be surprised when we give you the finger too.

Whatever both sides wanted, it was an impossible situation due to time constraints. Both sides were shooting for the moon, and nothing was going to happen after a few hours of negotiations.

 

[Kharma Police]

When you say we (SWAPA) were going to screw F9 you are not telling the truth, are not very well informed, or are just trying to create flame bait. F9 wanted a relative SL. They wanted their number 1 to be #2 at SWA, their #2 would be #4 etc. They were totally unwilling to try and work anything other than that. They also wanted $4000 a month for all pilots on furlough in addition to COBRA payments for an indefinite period, another issue they would not budge from.

I don't think anyone at SWAPA expects a staple of any kind and would provide a big fence for Atlanta (and our Doms also). It's post like yours that don't paint a fair picture. I fly Air Tran every week and it's is a great airline. If you want to stir hate and discontent then go some place else.

Hey homey, this thread was directed to "AirTran Pilots" by a respected member of your pilot group. I gave my honest opinion based on history and facts, and mentioned the word "arbitrator" and "F9", and it was like I kicked over an anthill. So, if you don't want to hear an "AirTran Pilots" opinion, that would mean your mind about "fair integration" is already made up; which I suspect is the case with the majority of your pilot group. So, as my Mama would say, "if you won't like the answer, then don't ask the question....."

 

[Cometman]

Hey homey, this thread was directed to "AirTran Pilots" by a respected member of your pilot group. I gave my honest opinion based on history and facts, and mentioned the word "arbitrator" and "F9", and it was like I kicked over an anthill. So, if you don't want to hear an "AirTran Pilots" opinion, that would mean your mind about "fair integration" is already made up; which I suspect is the case with the majority of your pilot group. So, as my Mama would say, "if you won't like the answer, then don't ask the question....."

You are correct. Nobody there wants your group or any other group. They want to grow on their own. You need them not the other way around. You need to accept the fact that you are a large regional with 1500 pilots. You will do very well with Republic. Get use to it.

 

[jtf]

I was under the impression that Southwest wanted to buy Frontier and then shut it down gradually and replace the whole thing with Southwest in Denver. They were simply offering the pilots positions at Southwest when their jobs were wound down. That isn't a merger. The premise of this thread is what pilots think about a merger scenario- very different from the WN/F9 situation. I don't have a stake in the process, but I am curious what people think about THIS situation and not what didn't happen last summer.

 

[T3700]

DOH with pay protection would be appropriate in this scenario. Some senior AAI capts would be unhappy with the fact they were no longer bidding in the top 10% even though their pay would go up substantially. Some of the more junior capts would be unhappy because they were no longer capts (even though they would get a big pay raise too). Most F/Os would be much better off with significant pay raises and quality of life improvements.

I think the 717 could fit in well flying the thinner routes that the 737-700 are a little to large for. As the leases on the 717 end, they could be replaced with 737s. Pay on the 717 should, however, be the same as the 737 until they are disposed of.

Most AAI pilots commute and I doubt there are a huge amount of Southwest pilots chomping at the bit to move to Atlanta. I don't think fences for Atlanta or MKE would be required. Maybe leave Atlanta as a 717 base and let it go junior.

Date of hire, pay protection, and let the AAI pilots hold whatever they can would be a simple and reasonably fair solution for most involved. If DOH was used, furloughs, if any, would occur in the most equitable manner possible.

A staple would not work and you would never get ALPA to agree to it. Any arbitrated settlement may result in a relative seniority scenario lumping 12 year AirTran Captains with 20 plus year Southwest Captains. This would create animosity and a nightmare like US Air.

The quicker AAI pilots (or the pilots of any airline bought by Southwest) consider themselves to be and are treated like any other Southwest pilot, the better.

 

[Mama's Boy]

The F9 guys screwed themselves. We never got past first base, they had their legs so tight together no amount of KY would help. Denver base protection (forever!) $3000 a month for F9 furloughed Pilots (forever!), Medical coverage forever......GMAFB :laugh: Who was bankrupt?

Anyone who uses the word "forever" in this industry is a fool.

 

[michael707767]

DOH with pay protection would be appropriate in this scenario. Some senior AAI capts would be unhappy with the fact they were no longer bidding in the top 10% even though their pay would go up substantially. Some of the more junior capts would be unhappy because they were no longer capts

Why would they lose their seats? I would expect in any merger you will be seat protected. I doubt there would be a full scale bump and flush.

 

[Kharma Police]

You are correct. Nobody there wants your group or any other group. They want to grow on their own. You need them not the other way around. You need to accept the fact that you are a large regional with 1500 pilots. You will do very well with Republic. Get use to it.

LOL!, guess what Junior, you are a even bigger regional that doesn't leave the CONUS. You guys still have PFT just like the regionals used to have too! Seriously, what's the most inter-Texas turns you've done in a day?!?

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Kharma,

I dont think he works for us. Notice he said "they" want to grow on their own. He's right, we do. Unfortunately it is not up to us. Not sure how an arbitrator would look at it. Its supposed to be "fair and equitable" to both groups per Allegheny Mohawk and Bond McCaskill. Neither side is supposed to get a "windfall". An arbitrator would likely see the pay raises that AAI guys would realize as a definite positive for them. Im not sure where any positives lie for our pilot group without some sort of bone thrown in there.

Im sure the majority of both groups would rather stay on their own.