Pay raise for Hawaiian Airlines CEO

[Hugh Jorgan]

There just aren't very many guys flying on days off at HAL. !

Then that's a good thing. That's my whole point. Sounds as though perhaps you would agree that flying on ones' off day is does not help get guys back on the property. Your tune is changing. For some reason (and I don't think I'm alone here), I was hearing you say that flying open time doesn't hurt the cause. Maybe you are smarter than first impressions might lead one to believe....but I could be wrong.

 

[SocalHomey]

Majority of pilots working overtime

Everyone: This is the worst kind of spiteful flamebait. Don't fall for it. For those of you who don't know this, HAL pilots have realtime access to the crew scheduling server. This lets us know how much open flying there is, who flew it, and much more. As to the rest of this discussion; Hugh - have you read the staffing formula? Have you been briefed by the MEC on the effects of recall on the furloughed pilots? I am going to guess that the answer is no.

Relax everyone. Don't be your own enemy.

 

[808 Pilot]

Take this for what it's worth.

I have a friend who works for a legal firm. She told me that her firm is working for an investment group and they have been working on a deal with Aloha. She says they are at the end or near the end of finalizing a contract with Aloha. This contract is contingent on a deal they are in the middle of working on with Ranch Capital.

Supposedly (don't shoot the messenger), this investor group will purchase Hawaiian from Ranch Capital if/when the court approves their purchase of Aloha. The rumor floating around her office is that the investment group is planning on creating one airline similar to the plan Greg Brenneman had.

I asked her for details like the name of the group, how soon it would happen or what kind of plan they will have for the new airline. She didn't know the answer to most of those questions and she wouldnt elaborate on the others based on confidentiality agreements.

 

[mdanno808]

I give. I'm in the process of buying both airlines. I have a cousin Keali'i who's out of work, and on paroll, so I told him he could be the ceo (but don't tell his kid's mom, he has some back child support issues). However, don't get your hopes up because the whole thing is contingent upon me winning my lawsuit against Dog the bounty hunter, over defimation of character (the camera angles totally made me look fat when he dragged me out of my house and took me to jail). Also, for those of you who saw the episode, I WAS NOT CRYING, I am allergic to bad hairdo's and bad pidgeon, and dog and his wife sent me into a sneezing fit. So, stay tuned and keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Hugh - have you read the staffing formula? .

No and I don't know $hit about who's doing what with their schedules at HAL and don't pretend to. But when some dude generically says that flying on days off doesn't hurt the cause of those on the street-regardless of which airline-I raise the bull$hit flag.

Have you been briefed by the MEC on the effects of recall on the furloughed pilots?

No, but I don't need any MEC to tell me that the effect of a recall on a furloughed pilot is probably a job with a paycheck.

Look, I just hope everyone on the street gets back into a cockpit, regardless of from which airline they might be furloughed. We all hope for that (well, all of us with any semblance of a heart do, anyway). If you are flying on your days off, and your brothers are on the street, you aren't helping them no matter who, how, or by what "formula" it is rationalized. So, relax, enjoy your days off and let the reserves pick up the open time when their phone rings. No matter what airline you work for, that's the best any of the members can do.

Again, I don't know squat about HAL, but I can do simple math. When someone shows you fuzzy math to rationalize something that is linear, be suspicious.....regardless of which airline for which you work.

Did I mention that I am not being specific about Hawaiian, just the concept of flying on your days off with people on the street? Is that lost on everyone, or just the select few who choose to wrestle with the pig?

 

[Dan Roman]

I'll add to what X and 808 pilot are saying. Something is brewing and somehow HAL (the airline not the poster on flightinfo) is involved. Dunkerly supposedly told the Chief Pilot that someone IS buying AQ and it's not us. For some reason we are involved because Dunkerly says he cannot elaborate. Whatever the deal is, it apparently includes 8 more inter-island 717's as we are in Australia looking at them. As far as someone buying AQ and HAL from Ranch. I would have to doubt that as I would think it would have to be a lot more than $5 a share to make it worth while for Ranch, but who knows? For a new investor to start out by first paying off AQ's debt AND Ranch's profit is a lot of money. Like I said earlier, the airline industry is a giant chess game right now. This should be interesting.

 

[FlickerFade]

bizjournals.com
Two airlines dominate Hawaii routes
Monday August 29, 2:00 am ET


United Airlines and Hawaiian Airlines account for almost a third of scheduled fall passenger capacity to the islands.
According to figures provided by the Hawaii Tourism Authority, half of air service to the state for the fall season will be provided by four carrers, those two plus American Airlines and Japan Airlines.

A look at the number of seats per carrier shows that United, which has trimmed global capacity 3 percent in the past year, flies at least 50 percent more seats to Hawaii than any other big five legacy carrier.

And Hawaiian now flies triple the number of Mainland seats as Aloha Airlines.

This is the air capacity to Hawaii, by carrier, for the month of October:

United: 679 flights, 142,428 seats, 18.3 percent of capacity. Hawaiian: 415 flights, 95,450 seats, 12.3 percent of capacity. American: 463 flights, 92,252 seats, 11.9 percent of capacity. JAL: 248 flights, 85,660 seats, 11 percent of capacity. Delta: 279 flights, 80,073 seats, 10.3 percent of capacity. Northwest: 279 flights, 76,136 seats, 9.8 percent of capacity. ATA: 220 flights, 49,452 seats, 6.4 percent of capacity. Continental: 199 flights, 47,585 seats, 6.1 percent of capacity. Aloha: 236 flights, 29,264 seats, 3.8 percent of capacity.

Source: Hawaii Tourism Authority. Size of aircraft and seat configuration affect differences in which carriers have more flights, versus more seats.
Published August 29, 2005 by Pacific Business News

 

[Dan Roman]

Take this for what it's worth.

I have a friend who works for a legal firm. She told me that her firm is working for an investment group and they have been working on a deal with Aloha. She says they are at the end or near the end of finalizing a contract with Aloha. This contract is contingent on a deal they are in the middle of working on with Ranch Capital.

Supposedly (don't shoot the messenger), this investor group will purchase Hawaiian from Ranch Capital if/when the court approves their purchase of Aloha. The rumor floating around her office is that the investment group is planning on creating one airline similar to the plan Greg Brenneman had.

I just heard a pretty good explanation for Hawaiians involvement. Inter-island gates. There has to be an explanation for Hawaiian to be involved in the talks. The cost of combining the 2 airlines, paying of AQ's debt and Ranch realizing a profit are astronomical. If someone was around with that kind of money and desire they would have shown up a year ago when Hawaiian's ownership was changing and Aloha could have been bought cheap. If you combined them, all you would have is an airline doing pretty much what Hawaiian is doing now. But if Aloha raises money by selling off the inter-island gates, it would free them up to trade their 737-700's for an appropriate trans pac airplane (757's). With oil at 70 a barrel, you cannot make a profit flying old 737's inter-island. Aloha needs a new fleet and it's too expensive to replace the inter-island AND the trans-pac fleet. Trans-pac has the most opportunity for growth for the new investor so inter-island goes. Also, Aloha has Island Air for inter-island feed.

There will be a new Aloha Airlines with 757's, lots off cities on the mainland could support non stop 757 service to Hawaii that don't have it now. The Chings and Ings save face, AND enhance their position in Island Air.
Looks like we'll find out Wed. if my speculating is close.

 

[RJP]

Did I mention that I am not being specific about Hawaiian, just the concept of flying on your days off with people on the street? Is that lost on everyone, or just the select few who choose to wrestle with the pig?

Wait a second. Are you talking about any airline or just HAL? Your last post was a bit vague.

 

[SocalHomey]

-I raise the bull$hit flag.

Funny you should mention that. MY bs flag goes up when someone attempts to oversimplify a complex problem, such as you are doing here. Attempting to reduce a nuanced system of interactions to a bumper sticker slogan often distorts the issue. I’ll see your “fuzzy math” and raise you a “slam dunk,” where using selective pieces of information and conveniently ignoring others leads to a faulty conclusion. We’ve told you that if no one picks up ANY extra flying, and the reserves pick up the slack, not a single furloughee - myself included - will be recalled one day earlier. But you stick to your bumper sticker slogans...

My real point is that we’re all in the fight of our lives to preserve our industry, and this kind of mudslinging just perpetuates BS rivalries and weakens our unity. A few pages back were some false allegations to the tune of “HAL pilots eat their young.” Please explain to me how that is a wise use of our energy right now...

 

[XOXO]

OK, pilots working overtime at HAL doesn't hurt furloughed pilots. To be honest, no one really cares. This was only brought to attention when some of your furloughed pilots started speculating on replacing current AQ pilots if some mythical merger was about to happen. Can you see the bait and switch now? Why don't we just let it die and see what happens in the courts. If we keep up the game of who's better than who pretty soon someone will start a thread about HAL pilots being unprofessional for not wearing ties with the uniform.

P.S. How do your young taste with the mango salsa?

 

[Dan Roman]

Well said socal, I have to laugh at people who don't work at Hawaiian throwing all kinds of judgements around that are pretty ridiculous. The fact is, as you said, we are all trying to survive and we are all dealing with problems that are not of our own making. Hawaiian has had it's ups and downs but we have seen our perserverance pay off. It sucks that 98 got furloughed due to Adam's gamble (brain fart?) but the majority of the furloughed pilots are showing the same perserverance that Ewa Beach just showed in PA. We have done everything we can for our furloughed pilots, we havn't prevented ANYBODY from being recalled by flying overtime and the furloughed pilots well being is a high priority for the vast majority of active pilots. They WILL be back soon. We have found a pretty good balance between the volatilty of our industry and protecting our employee's. When you return, it will be an even better Hawaiian than the one you left.

 

[Dan Roman]

Here you go guys we can all stop speculating.


http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050831/BUSINESS03/508310358
On the surface, this looks like good news for everyone.

 

[mdanno808]

Great news. I hope it works out for you guys.

 

[Erndogg]

Been gone for awhile and just got back to respond to some of the accusations leveled by Small Jorgan and Strangebrew.

1. I am a once furloughed pilot at Hawaiian that was one of the fortunate ones to get called back recently. Making accusations that our guys are not getting called back because our active guys are picking up OPEN flying is incorrect and it is not as simple as you may think. I had the same mentality when I was furloughed at Hawaiian and was pretty pissed!!! If you look at the recall sheets at hawaiian on a month to month basis-there has been very few if not any (in some months) of recall pay.

2. Our mgmt. decided that the employees were going to take the brunt of this blunder that Adams had put us into. ALPA did everything in thier power to lessen the blow. They provided a good example of how to handle a 1113 case and will be a benchmark to other alpa groups-maybe even Aloha's??? This extra flying crap your whinning about is peanuts compared to the whole picture!! Maybe you should worry more about ISLAND AIR taking your jobs at ALOHA as compared to guys flying extra at HAL-What your owners are doing to you is WAY MORE dangerous than what you bitch about at HAL!!!!
give us some better examples of how our senior pilots are supposely screwing our furloughed.

3. I wish you guys luck at ALOHA-I am happy to see that you have an investor lined up to take you guys over!! I like the fact that we will have 2 strong carriers in Hawaii. I have alot of buddies over there from my Island Air days and want them to succeed, but something that has always bothered me about your union leadership is that they have a tendency to put down Hawaiian on numerous occansions (I dont want to list them all here). Instead of working with them to help the two groups fight the challenges we face- your leaders spew hate and spead it to you junior pilots!!!!

4. I wont post anything on Aloha that I dont have any facts on. You guys should CHECK YOURSELVES!!! before you go pointing fingers at Hawaiian pilots!! Dont write with emotions but facts!!!!

 

[dash8driver]

um....everyone went home already...





.

 

[AQ PILOT]

kickin' it and still posting.....

Ok, first off...I'm kickin' it on 20 days off and I am not happy about having to respond to anyone right now! (low level humor there.....)

Secondly, I don't think hugh works for AQ anymore. Regardless, can you really question anyone's logic on the furloghed pilot issue? It makes perfect sense that if you have the need for X hours to be flown and you have Y pilots, that the X/Y=Z....Z being the number of hours flown per pilot. If you raise Z then the ratio of X and Y must change. Obviously, the number of hours needing to be flown aint goin' nowhere....therefore, Y would be the logical assumption for some sort of a modification. Now you're saying it doesn't work that way. FINE! I believe you. We believe you. It just seems odd. Our guys sent those of us furloughed after 9-11 a 'booster check' to help us get bye. Our impression...again OUR IMPRESSION...is that we are a tighter knit group than what goes on over there with your two groups.

You're right about Island Air taking our jobs. It is pure and unadultered bull$hit. Not only did we realize that. We called them on it. We had an arbitrator rule in our favor. Our prize? A lawsuit from the company. That said, since you're pointing it out, I'd like to thank you for your help in the matter and not standing up against the codeshare that HAL has entered with Island Air. Hate to have any help from our bruddahs across the ramp. Actually, that's not fair. It wouldn't matter either way. Both our companies have been beat like wet dogs. Our MECs can growl and snap like pitbulls but management is outside their backyards.

You mentioned that you wouldn't post anything about Aloha without facts. That's very cool of you. I'll try and do the same. Since you proffered that one, you just pointed out that AQ's union leadership has a tendancy to put HAL down. Could you post some facts on that? Really. I've been here 4 years and the worst thing I remember our MEC saying about your MEC was that you guys work too much. I am gonna officially apologize for that one. But I do look forward to your facts....please post soon!

Lastly, good lord, what a pathetic profession we have become. ALPA rolls over like a soccer ball at the drop of a hat.... Pilot, FA, and Machinist Unions no longer band together. Few ever agree not to cross the picket of another union's line. This is THAT bad. We really are in a race for the bottom. Let's forget about that now though...let's go back to bitching about who is more despicable...AQ or HAL!

Been gone for awhile and just got back to respond to some of the accusations leveled by Small Jorgan and Strangebrew.

1. I am a once furloughed pilot at Hawaiian that was one of the fortunate ones to get called back recently. Making accusations that our guys are not getting called back because our active guys are picking up OPEN flying is incorrect and it is not as simple as you may think. I had the same mentality when I was furloughed at Hawaiian and was pretty pissed!!! If you look at the recall sheets at hawaiian on a month to month basis-there has been very few if not any (in some months) of recall pay.

2. Our mgmt. decided that the employees were going to take the brunt of this blunder that Adams had put us into. ALPA did everything in thier power to lessen the blow. They provided a good example of how to handle a 1113 case and will be a benchmark to other alpa groups-maybe even Aloha's??? This extra flying crap your whinning about is peanuts compared to the whole picture!! Maybe you should worry more about ISLAND AIR taking your jobs at ALOHA as compared to guys flying extra at HAL-What your owners are doing to you is WAY MORE dangerous than what you bitch about at HAL!!!!
give us some better examples of how our senior pilots are supposely screwing our furloughed.

3. I wish you guys luck at ALOHA-I am happy to see that you have an investor lined up to take you guys over!! I like the fact that we will have 2 strong carriers in Hawaii. I have alot of buddies over there from my Island Air days and want them to succeed, but something that has always bothered me about your union leadership is that they have a tendency to put down Hawaiian on numerous occansions (I dont want to list them all here). Instead of working with them to help the two groups fight the challenges we face- your leaders spew hate and spead it to you junior pilots!!!!

4. I wont post anything on Aloha that I dont have any facts on. You guys should CHECK YOURSELVES!!! before you go pointing fingers at Hawaiian pilots!! Dont write with emotions but facts!!!!

 

[RJP]

You're right about Island Air taking our jobs. It is pure and unadultered bull$hit. Not only did we realize that. We called them on it. We had an arbitrator rule in our favor. Our prize? A lawsuit from the company.

Oh good lord. Can't you AQ guys let this thing die? Mommy, those mean kids flying those 37-seat POS props took my job! I'm sure you think that it was the decision of the WP pilot group to fly YOUR routes. Each and every pilot at Island Air collaborated and schemed to take YOUR job. Let me say it for you: SCOPE CLAUSE! Whatever.

Lastly, good lord, what a pathetic profession we have become. ALPA rolls over like a soccer ball at the drop of a hat.... Pilot, FA, and Machinist Unions no longer band together. Few ever agree not to cross the picket of another union's line. This is THAT bad. We really are in a race for the bottom.

Did your three unions stick together? Or did the mechanics end up before the judge alone?

 

[dash8driver]

Did your three unions stick together? Or did the mechanics end up before the judge alone?

i believe he's speaking of the entire industry inclusively there.

btw...no one is blaming the pilots. zander is the idiot that created this mess. the pilots even approached him with options of scope relief and such. he was even quoted as saying he's not stupid enough to create another competitor....hmmm.

btw, are you aware that the mighty mighty is flying seaplanes now? time to up the boat insurance.




.

 

[Erndogg]

You're right about Island Air taking our jobs. It is pure and unadultered bull$hit. Not only did we realize that. We called them on it. We had an arbitrator rule in our favor. Our prize? A lawsuit from the company. That said, since you're pointing it out, I'd like to thank you for your help in the matter and not standing up against the codeshare that HAL has entered with Island Air. Hate to have any help from our bruddahs across the ramp. Actually, that's not fair. It wouldn't matter either way. Both our companies have been beat like wet dogs. Our MECs can growl and snap like pitbulls but management is outside their backyards.

I dont know the exact timeframe between when we signed on with Island Air and when they started to violate the scope-but I will voice my concern to my reps at ALPA on this issue. Even more so now that your company is trying to use the BK court to eliminate scope.

You mentioned that you wouldn't post anything about Aloha without facts. That's very cool of you. I'll try and do the same. Since you proffered that one, you just pointed out that AQ's union leadership has a tendancy to put HAL down. Could you post some facts on that? Really. I've been here 4 years and the worst thing I remember our MEC saying about your MEC was that you guys work too much. I am gonna officially apologize for that one. But I do look forward to your facts....please post soon!

I've been told by my buddies at Aloha that when they were in orientation that the ALPA reps dissing Hawaiian during their pre-BK conversion to the 767/717 saying that they were unprofessional and they would fall flat on thier face. This is a direct quote from a buddy of mine (that no longer works for Aloha). have also been told (by my other active Aloha buddies) similar mudslinging has been the norm over there. The point I want to make is that were in this fight to preserve our future together. I hope that Hawaiian and Aloha will get through this whole industry crisis and a frickkin barrel of oil stays below $100.00.