Pay raise for Hawaiian Airlines CEO

[Jim]

Wow, so much venom on this board..

No venom, just posting what I was told.

Having 2 HAL furloughs under my belt with the latest at 2.7 years and counting, I know the associated pains. I have no hard feelings towards Aloha and hope they survive. I'd rather continue the status quo of Aloha being HAL's competition then seem them go under and have every major that flies to Hawaii try and move into interisland. But at the same time, I've sacraficed a heck of a lot for HAL and it would be very "stressful" to see HAL acquire Aloha (or part of Aloha) and their pilots remain active while I remain furloughed. (Especially since I have more time on furlough at HAL than many of their junior pilots have flying at Aloha.)

And Hugh is right - in this industry situations can reverse over night. HAL is doing good for now, but will it last? Who knows what RC has up their sleeve. They are sure not telling the pilots....we've been awaiting "the big announcement" and expansion announcements for months now....

 

[Whale Rider]

You guys at HAL better not start sucking each others dicks just yet. Talk about short memories.

Very professional. Where is the penalty box police when you need them????

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Very professional. Where is the penalty box police when you need them????

"Mommy, Mommy!!! Hughey said a bad word"

 

[islandhopper]

You guys all act like this is for real! A few of us started this rumor because the two announcements were supposed to be on the same day. Other than that we really got nothing. CHILLL.

 

[Whale Rider]

Hehehehe..........thought that would get your attention Hugh Jargen!

 

[LittleFokker]

Holy crap this got nasty quick.

 

[islandhopper]

I want this debated publicly.

I understand... Maybe some more front page stories in the advertiser? I'll call our MEC and just tell them we should do everything your way. Lets all only do the things YOU WANT TO DO.

 

[Sleepyhead]

FF,

Unfortunately from what I've seen in the HP/US merger, I'm guessing that an HA/AQ merger would be very similar. One company in bankruptcy, the other growing - and yet even though it is so close to a 'buyout', management keeps calling it a merger. And since we are both ALPA, the union merger policy comes into effect. With the AA/TWA merger the American union (APA) called the shots, and the TWA ALPA union was left hanging out to dry. What that means for the HA furloughees (as well as the US furloughees) is that no furloughed pilot can replace a working pilot. If HA does 'merge' with AQ, you can bet that just about everyone at AQ and ALPA would be screaming for us furloughees to be put below everyone working at HA AND AQ. In a word, we would be screwed.

But yes, I think we need to make our voice known if this does happen., and speak as one with our union, as well as a furloughee group.

HAL

Let's not forget there are a bunch of AQ pilots currently furloughed and many more will be joining them on Sept 1.

As for "buying parts of AQ and not the debt.." I don't think that is the plan. Mr. Banmiller has stated many times his "templete". He wants to switch the -700s with 757s and then add more destinations to increase revenue.
Keep in mind he owns 5% of AQ stock and gets a big bonus when AQ exits BK. I don't see how selling off a few pieces of AQ would help him.

But then again, he aint talking to our MEC so who knows what is up his sleave.

 

[FlickerFade]

what are your career expectations now?

what were your ideas for seniority list integration back in '02 'hopper?

I don't want anything bad to happen to AQ. I hope that HAL just leaves AQ alone.

But it is possible that all AQ pilots could be put above HAL furloughed pilots. Do you think that this would be fair? What is fair if we get to the point of integration?

I have stated the two extreme scenerios (the one in the previous paragraph and stapling) I support neither. In the '02 negotiations I heard proposals that AQ's ALPA was making. I want them proposed out in the open by us who will be affected. What are your rational expectations if this deal happens?



Aloha.

 

[AQ PILOT]

Flick-

Ok, I'm gonna bite. I think it would be pretty brutal if this buyout/merger/whatever ya wanna call it were to come into play and some of our guys at Aloha hired in 2003 were put in front of your guys who are currently furloughed that were hired in what? 2000? 1999? I don't really know where your furlough line cuts. I'm a 2001 hire so ya know.

Now, that being said, you're tootin' HAL's horn like it is the end all of all airlines. Truly, I am not trying to say anything negative about HAL. I'm only pointing out what I see while having kept an extremely supportive stance for you guys during the merger talks and your ensuing bankruptcy. I have some good friends over there.

If HAL was in such great shape (again, one last reiteration, I'm not pickin' at ya here) why are there people still furloughed? Why aren't the recalls just rolling in? We've all heard your plans to expand (and I hope you do!) where are the airplanes? When you guys were going to bail us out of our financial predicament during the merger, why was it HAL who went BK right away? Why is it now that your BK is over (serious congrats) and all of a sudden we over here (managed by idjits) are making a few months worth of profits and you're turning in losses (both are probably accounting tricks)?

Dude, I feel for ya. I know what it's like to be out of work. I was furloghed for 6 months and had the merger gone thru I probably would have been furloughed even longer. That just sucks no matter how we look at it. But I got news for everyone. I don't care what you want to call it or how the seniority system breaks out, but one airline serving the State of Hawaii makes sense. Call it Hawaiian. Call it Aloha. Call it frickin' Money Makin Airlines. With the state government behind it you have a license to print money. Anyone who thinks that competition is good between AQ and HAL is a consumer. We don't work for the consumer. We want to work someone who is getting a reasonable price from that consumer. One airline is flat out the way to go...no matter how you skin it, that's how it is. There is no downside. This Dunkerly seems to have some Moxie. I hope he does. Brenneman sure as hell did and he would have made this deal a dream for all parties involved.

If this thing comes together, it could be a helluva deal... If there are people out there with that much anger that the people of AQ haven't had to suffer enough (line from a Brenneman meeting) they need to get help. No one need suffer. Let's get together, work hard, expand, OWN the Island routes...let's get rid of the UAL, DAL, CAL, NWA, and everyone else that are beating down our shores....

Wow...so that is what crown and a keyboard can do....

 

[Freight Dog]

Holy cow!!! AQ PILOT for PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!

I went to Brenneman's meeting with ALPA membership from HAL, AQ, and WP, and man... to say that I was shocked was an understatement. So much crap was thrown AQ's way... I've heard that line too "AQ people haven't suffered enough." What kind of a sick individual thinks like that? Even in the newspaper, several self-righteous assholes made themselves as well as the entire HAL pilot group look like a bunch of angry teenagers.

I really hope it doesn't pan out that way again if we make another go at it. I hope that this time the HAL employees would reign in the hotheads and continue to display the true class act that they show me every time I catch a ride with them.

 

[FlickerFade]

Aren't HAL's revenues about double of AQ's? As a privately help Co. we'll never know the exact details of AQ's finances. I think the fact that a court removed HAL's CEO, we can safely say that a CH.11 was avoidable. But HAL is flying Adam's business plan and making $$.

If there were one HI airline, I think that it could be good. There are supposedly 8 717's available. And with AQ's routes to the mainland and others, the 5-7+ 757's it would take to be worth the added aircraft type, we'd be able to make up much of the combined flying.

But AQ has 2 big things HAL wasn't burdened with: 1)a fleet of aircraft that would have to be moved on/retired and 2) a bunch of outstanding loans. HAL never has taken the loans AQ has post-9/11. And paid off all its debts whele emerging from Ch. 11.

I just don't know how all of this works. HAL isn't as strong as AA was when they bought all of TWA's debt and AA flew some TWA aircraft for at least a while.

If the HA & AQ fleets were compatible it would seem to be a no-brainer merge. With the dissimilar fleets and AQ debt it seems very sticky. However the seniority lists are joined, I think that the HAL guys feel that what each Co. brings to the table to make the combined airline (as in $'s, business plan, and aircraft type) needs to be a big consideration.

I am truly just waiting for whatever is announced.

 

[FlickerFade]

The given reason for lack of current HAL expansion, which makes a lot of sense, is the tight 767-300ER market. This is a strange time while the industry waits for the next generation aircraft.

There are very few ETOPS 763's with pratt engines that also aren't beat to s**t. Boeing doesn't want to build you a new one without a 20 year commitment and (thankfully for us, HAL doesn't want 767's for that long). A good consequence of these high fuel prices is that a 30% reduction in operating costs sure looks attractive (with the 787).

So, that is why Hawaiian isn't now expanding, yet is looking diligently. They are also not recalling because "we" signed new concessions making the airline look a bit over-staffed.

Ah, what a keyboard and too much coffee can do. You sure are silent mdanno, you've usually got a lot to say about topics like these.

Aloha.

 

[AQ PILOT]

Personally, I don't see the big difference in fleets. They are airplanes, all Boeing. How frickin' difficult can it be?

As for being privately held....dude you have no idea....there is no one over here that trusts what goes on in the 'accounting' department. I doubt there is a soul here who wouldn't rather be publicly traded like HAL. I'll wholeheartedly give you the slam-dunk-no-argument-you-win-hands-down on that one.

Still, something aint right with the mentality between our two groups. I stand firmly by the fact that if HAL and AQ were one company it would be, how you say, much mo' bettah for the company, employees, and even the consumers. Think of the savings in the business plan.....no more competition, half the advertising (oh wait, we don't advertise...disregard), one res center, the list goes on and on....

Let me ask you this fizzle. While I know you would never wish us ill will, how would you feel if AQ liquidated and disappeared and HAL doubled in size to become the only Hawaiian carrier? That would be ok wouldn't it? Again, knowing you wish us no ill will, you would love that wouldnt you? I would if the roles were reversed. It's the best case answer. Now rather than bring in a whole bunch of new pilots from all over, I'd still rather see that new company staffed with guys like you and I. I just don't see the problem....

I still think if we could severely limit competition it would allow this Company to expand like no tomorrow. The State would totally back us...

Ok, coffee wearing off....

 

[FlickerFade]

Let me ask you this fizzle. While I know you would never wish us ill will, how would you feel if AQ liquidated and disappeared and HAL doubled in size to become the only Hawaiian carrier? That would be ok wouldn't it? Again, knowing you wish us no ill will, you would love that wouldnt you? I would if the roles were reversed. It's the best case answer. Now rather than bring in a whole bunch of new pilots from all over, I'd still rather see that new company staffed with guys like you and I. I just don't see the problem....

I still think if we could severely limit competition it would allow this Company to expand like no tomorrow. The State would totally back us...

Ok, coffee wearing off....[/QUOTE]

Ok,

Yes I do think that if AQ liquidated, HAL would be morally obligated to bring on as many AQ folks as possible.

I have heard that the market for 757's is tight too, so I don't know where the aircraft for mainland expantion would come from. The type of aircraft are VERY relevant here.

There are too many rumors flying around the Islands to account for here.

Good luck everyone.

 

[dash8driver]

There are too many rumors flying around the Islands to account for here.

i think you hit the nail on the head here. rumors. fighting over rumors should be done 2-3 years before you start fighting over who you're going to take to the prom.

 

[mdanno808]

Just got back from a 17 hour day flying in crap weather, and am beat. This thread has gotten interesting huh? Want my opinion? Well I'll give it to you anyway. This "merger" is totally theoretical at best. Rumor and conjecture is all we have at this point, and I have way too much going on in my fuct up life to get too worked up over something that at this point in time does not exist. My personal opinion at this minute (could change tomorrow) is don't sweat this too much. Does a merger make a lot of sense to me right now? Probably not. I certainly hope that the allmighty Dunk knows what he's doing, and that he wouldn't enter in to something that would bankrupt the company (again). God knows I don't want my furlough extended one day more than it has to be, so of course a merger would concern me. I was against the last merger attempt strictly due to a fear of being furloughed. Guess what? I was furloughed anyway.

The biggest problem with this "merger talk" is that it is getting emotional, when it shouldn't be. No one (at least that I know) at Hawaiian wishes any of the Aloha pilot's any hardships. I personally have many friends at Aloha, and hope that they all have long, successful careers ahead of them at AQ. I am also sure that most of the AQ pilot's wish the best for Hawaiian and it's pilots. The days of bad blood between AQ and HAL are over, and I hope that it remains that way. All of the arguments, pro or anti merger are not meant to be "my airline is better than yours" statements.

Flicker Fade, myself, and the rest of the furloughed HAL pilots feel very strongly about the airline, and it's success (as well as our recall). We have watched our airline go Chapter 11, our CEO removed, our company turn aircraft back to Boeing, and a scum bag trustee drag out the bankruptcy for 2 years, hoping that sooner or later, some progress would be made, and we'd be recalled. Almost three years later now, Hawaiian has been making money pretty consistently, they got rid of Gottbuam, and are talking about expansion. The furloughed are finally thinking that there may be an end to their misery in sight. Que merger rumor. Of course it rattles the guys and gals who were finally hoping that they would be back in their comfy 76 in the near future. Of course it stirs up emotions, and of course it wories the hell out of them. It in no way has anything to do with Aloha, or it's pilots.

I guess I am a little worried about how things will turn out, but no one on this board has any power to do anything but complain (which we all will). I have spent the last 3 years giving myself an ulser worrying about this crap, and I am just too tired to continue to do so.

 

[Freight Dog]

No one (at least that I know) at Hawaiian wishes any of the Aloha pilot's any hardships. I personally have many friends at Aloha, and hope that they all have long, successful careers ahead of them at AQ. I am also sure that most of the AQ pilot's wish the best for Hawaiian and it's pilots. The days of bad blood between AQ and HAL are over, and I hope that it remains that way. All of the arguments, pro or anti merger are not meant to be "my airline is better than yours" statements.

I heard a HAL pilot at the "Brenneman Show" say verbatim "Aloha people haven't suffered enough." If I were a HAL pilot, that guy would have gotten a healthy dose from me right then and there at that meeting in front of EVERYONE because he disgraced the entire pilot group with these kinds of remarks.

Like I said, when I jumpseat on HAL, I'm treated AWESOME about 98% of the time. Every airline has 2-5% 'asshole-factor" and one of the now-retired, legendary check airmen at Aloha told me 'you just look at them, smile, and say, THANK YOU - glad I'm not one.'

I just hope that should there be a merger again, that the animosity won't be evident in the cockpit. It's a long 5 hour flight to be putting up with petty crap that neither guy had anything to do with. Last merger - I'd be bringing popcorn on the jumpseat just to watch what goes on after leveling off, or bring a striped black/white shirt and ref the fight.

 

[HAL]

I heard a HAL pilot at the "Brenneman Show" say verbatim "Aloha people haven't suffered enough."

You are right, there are always a couple of idiots at every airline. I've found them at all the airlines I've worked for.

Flicker Fade, myself, and the rest of the furloughed HAL pilots feel very strongly about the airline, and it's success (as well as our recall). We have watched our airline go Chapter 11, our CEO removed, our company turn aircraft back to Boeing, and a scum bag trustee drag out the bankruptcy for 2 years, hoping that sooner or later, some progress would be made, and we'd be recalled. Almost three years later now, Hawaiian has been making money pretty consistently, they got rid of Gottbuam, and are talking about expansion. The furloughed are finally thinking that there may be an end to their misery in sight. Que merger rumor. Of course it rattles the guys and gals who were finally hoping that they would be back in their comfy 76 in the near future. Of course it stirs up emotions, and of course it wories the hell out of them. It in no way has anything to do with Aloha, or it's pilots.

Probably the best and most concise description of what we've been through I've seen yet. Thanks mdanno.

Still, something aint right with the mentality between our two groups.

That is the real world situation between any two pilot groups when seniority is involved. There has never yet been any merger/acquisition/etc where the two groups get along great, because of the seniority issue. When your experience, pay scale, and seniority are not portable between companies, pilots will fight to the death to protect as much of their seniority as possible.

I do hope it is a false rumor. If not, you can bet that flicker, mdanno, myself, and the rest of the furloughees will fight with everything we have to preserve our places on the HA seniority list. We've fought too hard to let bad business decisions take it away from us.

I also hope that this: http://www.hawaiianair.com/about/corporate/NewsRelease/Section_489.asp

isn't the 'big news' we've been hearing so much about. The marketing guys probably love it, but it means nothing for the rest of us.

HAL

 

[Dan Roman]

Here's what I know. Dunkerly has been asked point blank if there is any truth to the rumor? his answer was "no comment" so read what you want in that. During an informal Q and A in the lounge he did make some points. #1 he said he was very sensitive to the seniority issues and IF there was any deal it would have to include the furloughed pilots. He said they have no interest in Alohas route structure. When asked what is of interest, he said the gates and the inter-island traffic. He said as we speak (8/19) Hawaiian has a team in Australia looking at 8 717's. He said even the 757 is too small for us and they are continuing to look for more 767's. But for sure, any purchase of Aloha assets would not include their trans-pac flying becoming part of Hawaiian Air.

Now before any AQ folks jump on me, let me make some more points. I was in favor of the merger before. Who knows, but if I was betting on it, under Brenneman I don't think any HAL pilots would be on furlough now and I think we would have had about 20 inter-island 717's and a big enough fleet of 767/757's that no one would have been furloughed. Those who got there wish of sticking with Adam's rather than going with Brenneman didn't realize how close to the edge we would get. Anyway, it's water under the bridge.
Now for thinking out of the box, when Dunkerly says they are not intersted in Alohas current business plan and that any deal would first have to include ALL furloughed pilots being back, that doesn't neccesarily mean the AQ pilots have to be screwed. Hawaiian has been looking at generating it's own feed on the mainland. The Chief Pilot confirmed that 717's based in LAS IS being looked at. Who's to say the 8 717's in Australia aren't for inter-island and Alohas 737's couldn't all be based in LAS as a hub feeding our vegas flights? Ranch has a lot of money and they are looking at every opportunity to expand, they know what they are doing and will jump on anything that makes sense.
Finally, the point has been made already, both airlines have a tight pilot group and both airlines have a few arseholes. It's a little foolish to take any comment personally, the arseholes opinions say more about who they are than who they are talking about. The vast majority of pilots at both airlines get along just fine, we all have friends at both. The best man at my wedding was a fellow Hawaiian pilot married to a Aloha FA.
For the Aloha folks, I do have to say, I agree with what everyone feels here, any expansion of Hawaiian with our assets has to include our furloughed pilots first and foremost. We have come a long way and they are part of us that will not be forgotten, Dunkerly seems to agree with the pilots that any deal with our money has to be good for EVERY Hawaiian pilot. That said perhaps there is some synergy between Hawaiian and the redeployment of Alohas assets that could benefit everyone.
It's waaay to soon to start the name calling. Hawaiian is looking at lots of options and I'm sure Aloha is looking at all their options too.

 

[Freight Dog]

Dan, now there's a novel idea... turn our -200's into beer cans as one of your pilots put it back in the merger days and replace them with 717's, turn our ETOPS operation into the mainland feed with 737NG's (way better range on those than on 717) for 767's and get more 767's to expand the long-haul and international routes.

....who is da lolo who stole my pakalolo......

 

[Dan Roman]

I know Dunkerly and Carty have recently met with Boeing and I think we all agree that the 717 is the better inter-island plane and the 737's would be more versatile for feeding LAS.

 

[Prog 2/2]

I just don't know how all of this works. HAL isn't as strong as AA was when they bought all of TWA's debt and AA flew some TWA aircraft for at least a while.

APA member, by chance ? This is one of the myths that help them rationalize their hose job of the TWA pilots.

AMR "bought" none of TWA's debt. None, nada, zilch. They assumed lease payments, facility rents, wages, retiree medical benefits, etc., and realized significant cash gains for some of the assets that they later sold, like the TWA share of Worldspan. The whole purpose of the engineered bankruptcy of TWA was so that AMR could acquire assets unencumbered by any attached debt.

And they still have over 100 TWA airplanes, with fewer than 500 TWA pilots left working.

Not picking on you, I just hate to see this drivel perpetuated.

 

[AQ PILOT]

Dan,
NOT to start anything here, but when you say the 717 is a better interisland airplane, what are you basing that on? Don't ask me how, but we made money with our 73's these last couple months. I don't know the breakdown of your operation, but out interisland is what saved us. What took you guys down? ER too, or was it interisland?

 

[808]

Pay scales come to mind. Also although AQ did make money I think your BK attorney fees sucked a majority of it away.

 

[dash8driver]

Pay scales come to mind.

yes you cant fund the crook's golden parachute and other payoffs properly when you have to pay those damn workers.






.

 

[Dan Roman]

What took you guys down? ER too, or was it interisland?[/QUOTE]


None of the above. It was John Adams. Not sure how close you followed our deal, but as was said in the beginning and time proved it, our Bankruptcy was a scam by Adam's (Boeing proved it in court and he lost control of the airline). We never had any debt just lease rates he said were too high and an underfunded pilots retirement. At the time we were debt free and down to 20 mil in cash as a result of Adams taking 25 mil in cash out of the airline (stock buyback). He has to be kicking himself, by the time he was booted out we had completed the transition to our new fleet and have been making solid profits ever since than. Any losses shown have been paper losses. Our cash level has increased significantly every qtr since (presently over 160 mil unrestricted cash) This last qtr was the first time we showed a loss for a qtr, but it turns out we had an operating profit (our cash level increased), but it was shown as a loss coming out of bankruptcy.
This explains it:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050818/latu106.html?.v=22


Even more significant, those results include a 10 mil payout for fuel hedges. 40% of our fuel is now hedged (eff june 30).

I'm NOT trying to start a debate here either, but when you make a comment about what brought us down as if our airlines are in the same boat, I have to set the record straight. Nothing personal, it's just apples and oranges. I must say, it's my prespective that Aloha has always talked stink about Hawaiian. In the news they even blamed Hawaiian for their bankruptcy! Not poor management. As far as the 717 vs 737, inter -island, nothing meant by it, I was just saying that your 737's would be better deployed feeding us on the mainland than our 717's (if it happened that Hawaiian started a LAS hub), as the 717 has been an excellant inter-island airplane. I'm sure we agree that you need new aircraft inter-island as the old 737's are terrible with gas prices were they are. Again, nothing personal, just an observation. Expensive fuel and an airplane that burns a lot of fuel are a bad mix.

 

[AQ PILOT]

No offense taken, and as you and I have talked about before, Adams is a disgusting creature on all fronts. I don't think he is what has impacted you recently though.

Gotta admit though, I don't like it much the way you put it when you say "like we are in the same boat...." That sounds somewhat condescending. You guys were pretty well bailed out of some pretty nasty crap over there. It's not like you're the next generation SWA.

Before you go off half cocked and take that all wrong, let me head you off at the pass by saying that I hope you guys do become the next SWA. I hope everything turns out rosy for everyone involved at HAL. You think we talk stink about you guys? Especially in the media? He11, our spokesman couldn't put a positive spin on finding the meaning of life! We can't even effectively communicate with ourselves let alone put together an organized "talk stink" campaign!

As for the 737 vs 717 issue. I'm probably gonna have to agree with ya. The higher fuel goes, the better your bird is. Like I said I wont shed a tear when those -200's go away. The lease rates are so inexpensive on them that with reasonable (what is reasonable today anyway) fuel prices, it made more sense than the higher rates you were paying for the 717s.

'nuff of this stuff. I work 2 more days and then I'm off for almost 3 weeks without a day of vacation. When I get back I expect all of you to have this $hit worked out, Dan you're in charge, Freightdog play nice with other.... Just tell me where my locker is and what we are serving for first class....

 

[Freight Dog]

Just tell me where my locker is and what we are serving for first class....

Dude... where's MY locker?

Now for first class, we're serving dry hamburgers made last month or a week old pizza with a pink ooze as a topping. Going the other way, we serve ramen noodles with some tan ooze and call it alfredo, or the other choice is the previous day's leftovers from Chowmein Express.

Bon appetit.

Hope this helps.

 

[808]

Yum, I like pink ooze.