Pay raise for Hawaiian Airlines CEO

[Freight Dog]

Yum, I like pink ooze.

Courtesy of Gate Gourmet....

 

[Dan Roman]

Gotta admit though, I don't like it much the way you put it when you say "like we are in the same boat...." That sounds somewhat condescending. You guys were pretty well bailed out of some pretty nasty crap over there. It's not like you're the next SWA.



AQ we both no better than to take pot shots, it's just an exchange of ideas and it's pretty easy to be misunderstood. I guess my point is that it's my perception that you guys have been lead to believe by numerous comments from Zander that "Hawaiian is hurting", "their 717's are too costly" "were stronger" etc etc. Ive lost count of some of the garbage I've heard attributed to Zander. During the merger he actually said "we're saving Hawaiian"! I don't think we want to go back and forth, but when you say "it's not like your the next SWA" it makes me think you've been fooled by some of the anti-Hawaiian propaganda that has come from your management. I loved the one when we entered bankruptcy Zander said in the Advertiser that "I guess we had a better plan". Again our bankruptcy had nothing to do with lack of operating profits and everything to do with Adams taking 30 mil out of the airline during a slow period and trying to play hardball with Boeing.

Here's some figures from this months issue of Airways magazine (Hawaiian is the cover story), they outlined what I'm saying pretty well.

2003 77.5 million operating profit on revenue of 706.1 million
2004 70.0 million operating profit on revenue of 764.0 million

an operating profit margin 9.4%-higher than ANY US major airline (including SWA).
The closing sentence, "Hawaiian's 2 year reorganization-albeit at $24 mil the costliest in the history of Hawaii-has resulted in the transformation of a very good airline into a strong one" is pretty accurate.

Keep in mind that we have over 150 million unrestricted cash, have paid out almost 24 million in Bankruptcy charges and they have put over 30 million into the pilots retirement (it's no longer underfunded and going forward, the younger pilots pilots who are switching to a DC plan have a backstop of 17%, according to ALPA, the highest DC plan in the industry)

This is not to say how wonderful we are compared to anyone else, I'm fully aware how volatile this industry is and none of us can afford to get smug. But I will try and keep the record straight. Our reps have done an excellant job and we are finally well managed. How long it lasts, who knows? A lot of propaganda came out of the "merger of equals" crap. I was fine with the fact that AQ was out of money and lets just merge the two and keep everyone working, I think we would have been stronger under Breneman than Adams, but it got ugly, some from our side and some from your side. My guess is you and I could have sat down and worked out a compromise a lot easier than the mob mentality that was going on between the two groups. Now of course, thing are different, we have to protect our furloughed guys and IF the rumors are true, it's not a merger per say, but the purchase of some assets.

I truly hope the best for you guys, A LOT can happen as we have proven, but I have to stand up for Hawaiian if I feel it's being misrepresented and an awful lot of lies and misrepresentations have came out of Zanders mouth during his tenure. Hawaiian has proven that a Hawaii based company can be succesful when well run.

 

[XOXO]

You can bet that flicker, mdanno, myself, and the rest of the furloughees will fight with everything we have to preserve our places on the HA seniority list.

Hey HAL,

Grandiose illusions of Hawaiian acquisitioning Aloha isn't going to help your plight with seniority list issues. I really hope the best for you and also Hawaiian but your gripe is with your own pilot group. I’m sure HAL pilots picking up overtime to the tune of working 100 hours a month isn’t getting you furloughed guys off the street any faster. Aloha will survive just as they always do and I would hope you could focus on the real problem with your unemployment.



Best of luck to you and I hope you will be back soon!



Maloha

 

[islandhopper]

Hey HAL,

Grandiose illusions of Hawaiian acquisitioning Aloha isn't going to help your plight with seniority list issues. I really hope the best for you and also Hawaiian but your gripe is with your own pilot group. I’m sure HAL pilots picking up overtime to the tune of working 100 hours a month isn’t getting you furloughed guys off the street any faster. Aloha will survive just as they always do and I would hope you could focus on the real problem with your unemployment.



Best of luck to you and I hope you will be back soon!



Maloha

Ouch! Looks like Dr Obvious is back in the office!

 

[RJP]

Mr. Banmiller has stated many times his "templete". He wants to switch the -700s with 757s and then add more destinations to increase revenue.
Keep in mind he owns 5% of AQ stock and gets a big bonus when AQ exits BK. I don't see how selling off a few pieces of AQ would help him.

Not flame bait here, but has anyone else heard the story that Banmiller may have (after filing Ch.11) negotiated a $2 million bonus for himself if AQ files CH.7?

Sure hope that's not true.

 

[808]

That's true about the extra flying, good point.

 

[FlickerFade]

While this "guys picking up open time an bidding max lines hurts furghloughees" is a popular rallying cry, it is just not valid.

The # of pilots activated is a factor of the Staffing Formula. "we" gave concessions to this formula in '03 and now '05. If noone flew over min hours, the reserves would get slammed, there would be more guys called in on days off, but unless the staffing formula is adjusted, there would be no recalls from furlough.

Nice try, but it is just not a valid issue. We'll get recalled when the airline expands. A few guys will come in and go out due to retirements eventually, but that is all.

So, Strangebrew, islandhopper, and 808. You are wrong.

 

[Dan Roman]

island hopper,
I don't know were you get Hawaiian Aquiring AQ or parts of as "grand illusions". Will it happen? Who knows? But the owners of Hawaiian (Ranch Capital) could if they wanted to. They are a large hedge fund that has a lot of cash to invest in whatever they think will provide a good return.
Now before you start jumping up and down about Hawaiian vs AQ, I think there is a much bigger picture than yours or my company. The whole airline industry is up for grabs right now, at a price that has never been cheaper. My belief is the next few years are going to see numerous spin offs and aquistitions. There are money people out there looking at the whole industry and what can they cherry pick to make a new competitive airline. As a whole, this industry isn't working. UAL was a failing airline, they seem to be positioning themselves for future survival. Continental not long ago said Air Mic was for sale. My guess is there is more than just Hawaiian talking about buying parts of AQ. Who's to say Banmiller isn't working a multi faceted deal with another airline? You mark my words, what will soon transpire will be a lot more complex than what we are speculating on. So here's my guess. I think your being sold to a mainland airline (Alaska?) and your inter-island is being spun off to make the deal work.

 

[Dan Roman]

BTW flicker fade is exactly right. People who don't work at Hawaiian are unaware of how our staffing formula works so it's silly to make a comment that our guys are keeping furloughed guys out by flying extra. Most bid line holders are flying about 80 hrs a month, The ones who fly more are taking it from the reserves. Our staffing formula stays constant whether the reserves fly 60 or 20 hrs.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

The ones who fly more are taking it from the reserves. Our staffing formula stays constant whether the reserves fly 60 or 20 hrs.

I don't care what airline you work for, Your staffing formula is going to be based on an assumption that guys will take extra flying. For every guy that takes an open flight, that's one less reserve guy used. One less reserved guy used on a regular basis results in one less reserve guy needed based on any formula. When flights get cancelled because the reserves are used up and there are guys on the street, they will call a guy off the street.
Simple as that.
To not believe that taking open time doesn't hurt the guy on the street, I'd say, is naive.

If you can get your group to stop picking up open time, you'll see a few phones ringning right away.

 

[FlickerFade]

smallOrgan,


You are wrong.

Didn't you read Roman's statement that most guys only fly 80 hours & that they just got a reduction in required staffing in the '05 concessions from me earlier?

Worry about your own staffing and don't argue with people whose jobs depend on THIS staffing formula. This issue has been beat to death internally and our MEC has investigated and answered to our satisfaction. Just because you find yourself in the uniquely unqualified position of not ever working at Hawaiian doesn't mean that you have some great perspective that we lack.

I'll forgive your condescension if you quit calling us naive.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

You are wrong.

Didn't you read Roman's statement that most guys only fly 80 hours & that they just got a reduction in required staffing in the '05 concessions from mine. .

Yes, I did read that.
And linear math is still linear math.
It has nothing to do with HOURS flown. It's how many FLIGHTS are flown per day vs. number of pilots on board since you need a bum in every seat.
It doesn't matter how nice your MEC makes it sound so that you are satisified, if pilots take extra flights, then those are flights that would otherwise be filled with other pilots. Simple math that even a man of your stature should be able to understand.

 

[FlickerFade]

minisculeOrgan,

Yeah, that strategy worked great for AA in '99. Only cost their union $45M.

But it doesn't even apply here. If you had the real #'s on recalls, you would not be debating this topic with us/me. I have seen the stats on recalls of off-duty pilots. It's the reserves who are flying the vast majority of open time. Don't you think that those in the top 10 to be recalled are pressing this matter to its fullest? They have.

What are you doing at your company to prevent guys from maxing out their flying while guys are on furlough? Since it is such an important subject to you?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I'll forgive your condescension

Pot...Kettle....Black

If you had the real #'s on recalls, you would not be debating this topic with us/me.

Then post them.

What are you doing at your company to prevent guys from maxing out their flying while guys are on furlough?

When the F-word shows up on the property where I'm currently working, you can bet we'll be doing what we can to keep guys from taking extra flying. Until that day, I'll just stick my nose in your business as I see fit. Then again, this is kinda like wrestling with a pig. You just end up dirty, and the pig likes it.

1 + 1 still equals 2 last time I checked.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Yeah, that strategy worked great for AA in '99. Only cost their union $45M.

Wasn't this a sick-out? I think you are confusing an illegal work action with simply not taking on extra flying. Big difference and a pretty weak argument.

 

[FlickerFade]

Well, you've never worked at Hawaiian.

You don't know the relevant facts. Or any facts as best as I can tell. When you are given facts by those who do know you won't accept them.

So, all you're left with is an opinion and we all know what they're like.

 

[XOXO]

Majority of pilots working overtime to help furloughed pilots get back on property sooner. Really, this is so simple even FlickerFade can understand it.

Hey, who ordered the chicken with the mango sauce?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

You don't know the relevant facts.

Standing by to read said facts.

Until then....
1 + 1 = 2


Pink ooze...that one's mine!!!

 

[Capt. X]

Not to worry HAL or AQ

Investors have made a deal and we know only that it isn't an airline.

 

[FlickerFade]

Well guys, at your mythical airline your points may be valid. There just aren't very many guys flying on days off at HAL.

I know what we need is an airline running inefficient schedules. Flying min lines would get everyone back. That will help us all. We are just not as smart as you. At $70 a barrel oil I want HAL to hire back all 98 pilots without expanding. We'd all have jobs then YEAH!! (We just may not have an airline)

I know I'm a liar. I am part of a conspiracy. The fact that I'm on the inside at HAL and actually understand the situation makes my points invalid. You guys really know the truth. And if you think that I'm posting official documents on this public forum.......................

Sure that pink ooze isn't KoolAid for your little "I know what the truth is about Hawaiian" cult?!

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

There just aren't very many guys flying on days off at HAL. !

Then that's a good thing. That's my whole point. Sounds as though perhaps you would agree that flying on ones' off day is does not help get guys back on the property. Your tune is changing. For some reason (and I don't think I'm alone here), I was hearing you say that flying open time doesn't hurt the cause. Maybe you are smarter than first impressions might lead one to believe....but I could be wrong.

 

[SocalHomey]

Majority of pilots working overtime

Everyone: This is the worst kind of spiteful flamebait. Don't fall for it. For those of you who don't know this, HAL pilots have realtime access to the crew scheduling server. This lets us know how much open flying there is, who flew it, and much more. As to the rest of this discussion; Hugh - have you read the staffing formula? Have you been briefed by the MEC on the effects of recall on the furloughed pilots? I am going to guess that the answer is no.

Relax everyone. Don't be your own enemy.

 

[808 Pilot]

Take this for what it's worth.

I have a friend who works for a legal firm. She told me that her firm is working for an investment group and they have been working on a deal with Aloha. She says they are at the end or near the end of finalizing a contract with Aloha. This contract is contingent on a deal they are in the middle of working on with Ranch Capital.

Supposedly (don't shoot the messenger), this investor group will purchase Hawaiian from Ranch Capital if/when the court approves their purchase of Aloha. The rumor floating around her office is that the investment group is planning on creating one airline similar to the plan Greg Brenneman had.

I asked her for details like the name of the group, how soon it would happen or what kind of plan they will have for the new airline. She didn't know the answer to most of those questions and she wouldnt elaborate on the others based on confidentiality agreements.

 

[mdanno808]

I give. I'm in the process of buying both airlines. I have a cousin Keali'i who's out of work, and on paroll, so I told him he could be the ceo (but don't tell his kid's mom, he has some back child support issues). However, don't get your hopes up because the whole thing is contingent upon me winning my lawsuit against Dog the bounty hunter, over defimation of character (the camera angles totally made me look fat when he dragged me out of my house and took me to jail). Also, for those of you who saw the episode, I WAS NOT CRYING, I am allergic to bad hairdo's and bad pidgeon, and dog and his wife sent me into a sneezing fit. So, stay tuned and keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Hugh - have you read the staffing formula? .

No and I don't know $hit about who's doing what with their schedules at HAL and don't pretend to. But when some dude generically says that flying on days off doesn't hurt the cause of those on the street-regardless of which airline-I raise the bull$hit flag.

Have you been briefed by the MEC on the effects of recall on the furloughed pilots?

No, but I don't need any MEC to tell me that the effect of a recall on a furloughed pilot is probably a job with a paycheck.

Look, I just hope everyone on the street gets back into a cockpit, regardless of from which airline they might be furloughed. We all hope for that (well, all of us with any semblance of a heart do, anyway). If you are flying on your days off, and your brothers are on the street, you aren't helping them no matter who, how, or by what "formula" it is rationalized. So, relax, enjoy your days off and let the reserves pick up the open time when their phone rings. No matter what airline you work for, that's the best any of the members can do.

Again, I don't know squat about HAL, but I can do simple math. When someone shows you fuzzy math to rationalize something that is linear, be suspicious.....regardless of which airline for which you work.

Did I mention that I am not being specific about Hawaiian, just the concept of flying on your days off with people on the street? Is that lost on everyone, or just the select few who choose to wrestle with the pig?

 

[Dan Roman]

I'll add to what X and 808 pilot are saying. Something is brewing and somehow HAL (the airline not the poster on flightinfo) is involved. Dunkerly supposedly told the Chief Pilot that someone IS buying AQ and it's not us. For some reason we are involved because Dunkerly says he cannot elaborate. Whatever the deal is, it apparently includes 8 more inter-island 717's as we are in Australia looking at them. As far as someone buying AQ and HAL from Ranch. I would have to doubt that as I would think it would have to be a lot more than $5 a share to make it worth while for Ranch, but who knows? For a new investor to start out by first paying off AQ's debt AND Ranch's profit is a lot of money. Like I said earlier, the airline industry is a giant chess game right now. This should be interesting.

 

[FlickerFade]

bizjournals.com
Two airlines dominate Hawaii routes
Monday August 29, 2:00 am ET


United Airlines and Hawaiian Airlines account for almost a third of scheduled fall passenger capacity to the islands.
According to figures provided by the Hawaii Tourism Authority, half of air service to the state for the fall season will be provided by four carrers, those two plus American Airlines and Japan Airlines.

A look at the number of seats per carrier shows that United, which has trimmed global capacity 3 percent in the past year, flies at least 50 percent more seats to Hawaii than any other big five legacy carrier.

And Hawaiian now flies triple the number of Mainland seats as Aloha Airlines.

This is the air capacity to Hawaii, by carrier, for the month of October:

United: 679 flights, 142,428 seats, 18.3 percent of capacity. Hawaiian: 415 flights, 95,450 seats, 12.3 percent of capacity. American: 463 flights, 92,252 seats, 11.9 percent of capacity. JAL: 248 flights, 85,660 seats, 11 percent of capacity. Delta: 279 flights, 80,073 seats, 10.3 percent of capacity. Northwest: 279 flights, 76,136 seats, 9.8 percent of capacity. ATA: 220 flights, 49,452 seats, 6.4 percent of capacity. Continental: 199 flights, 47,585 seats, 6.1 percent of capacity. Aloha: 236 flights, 29,264 seats, 3.8 percent of capacity.

Source: Hawaii Tourism Authority. Size of aircraft and seat configuration affect differences in which carriers have more flights, versus more seats.
Published August 29, 2005 by Pacific Business News

 

[Dan Roman]

Take this for what it's worth.

I have a friend who works for a legal firm. She told me that her firm is working for an investment group and they have been working on a deal with Aloha. She says they are at the end or near the end of finalizing a contract with Aloha. This contract is contingent on a deal they are in the middle of working on with Ranch Capital.

Supposedly (don't shoot the messenger), this investor group will purchase Hawaiian from Ranch Capital if/when the court approves their purchase of Aloha. The rumor floating around her office is that the investment group is planning on creating one airline similar to the plan Greg Brenneman had.

I just heard a pretty good explanation for Hawaiians involvement. Inter-island gates. There has to be an explanation for Hawaiian to be involved in the talks. The cost of combining the 2 airlines, paying of AQ's debt and Ranch realizing a profit are astronomical. If someone was around with that kind of money and desire they would have shown up a year ago when Hawaiian's ownership was changing and Aloha could have been bought cheap. If you combined them, all you would have is an airline doing pretty much what Hawaiian is doing now. But if Aloha raises money by selling off the inter-island gates, it would free them up to trade their 737-700's for an appropriate trans pac airplane (757's). With oil at 70 a barrel, you cannot make a profit flying old 737's inter-island. Aloha needs a new fleet and it's too expensive to replace the inter-island AND the trans-pac fleet. Trans-pac has the most opportunity for growth for the new investor so inter-island goes. Also, Aloha has Island Air for inter-island feed.

There will be a new Aloha Airlines with 757's, lots off cities on the mainland could support non stop 757 service to Hawaii that don't have it now. The Chings and Ings save face, AND enhance their position in Island Air.
Looks like we'll find out Wed. if my speculating is close.

 

[RJP]

Did I mention that I am not being specific about Hawaiian, just the concept of flying on your days off with people on the street? Is that lost on everyone, or just the select few who choose to wrestle with the pig?

Wait a second. Are you talking about any airline or just HAL? Your last post was a bit vague.

 

[SocalHomey]

-I raise the bull$hit flag.

Funny you should mention that. MY bs flag goes up when someone attempts to oversimplify a complex problem, such as you are doing here. Attempting to reduce a nuanced system of interactions to a bumper sticker slogan often distorts the issue. I’ll see your “fuzzy math” and raise you a “slam dunk,” where using selective pieces of information and conveniently ignoring others leads to a faulty conclusion. We’ve told you that if no one picks up ANY extra flying, and the reserves pick up the slack, not a single furloughee - myself included - will be recalled one day earlier. But you stick to your bumper sticker slogans...

My real point is that we’re all in the fight of our lives to preserve our industry, and this kind of mudslinging just perpetuates BS rivalries and weakens our unity. A few pages back were some false allegations to the tune of “HAL pilots eat their young.” Please explain to me how that is a wise use of our energy right now...