dash8driver
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Pay raise for Hawaiian Airlines CEO
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AQ and Earndog (actually anyone who wants to read this),
AQ, you mentioned a "booster check" when your guys were furloughed. We voted to make the medical insurance payments of our furloughed pilots out of our pockets. That's not the only thing we have done for them, but the point is I think you'll find both our groups have a little more Ohana in them than most when it counts. We are both pretty tight nit and thats one of the reason the sabers come out when we talk of merging! You do have a point though in that our group has been fractionalized, It is due to having 2 councils. The battle of pilots wanting flying based on the mainland has split our group and you would be shocked at some of the infighting that has taken place over trying to put flying on the west coast.
Earndog raises a good point. Our airlines have two different corporate personalities. Two true stories here to illustrate the diference.
Early 90's when we were struggling, you CEO attended a MEC meeting and annouced that "Hawaiian was going out of business" and received a standing ovation! This came from an Aloha pilot who was there an said he was disgusted by his fellow pilots. Now compare that to a Hawaiian MEC meeting I was at. Paul Casey was there and Aloha had just made a very derogatory remark about us in the press. Someone asked him about it and his comment was "we don't believe in taking potshots at the competition, it's our philosophy to take the high road and worry about making ourselves better rather than try and put down the competition". This also got a round of applause from the attending pilots. These are just two examples of many similar incidents. Your Glen Zander did more to hurt the merger than our anti-merger committees if you ask me.
Over the last 25 years, Hawaiian has had one wild ride. We have been flying all over the world with DC-8's, L-1011's DC-10's and 767's. We have taken our lumps and personify the struggles of Airline deregulation as well as anyone. Our union has delt with issues (some of our own making) that you guys havn't even dreamed about. But we have a lot to show for it, relative to it's size, Hawaiian has been posting the best operating profits in the industry (all the while during our BK we paid every bill, made all our lease payments and funded our retirement). We also kept our working conditions intact and our hourly rate at the upper end of the industry pay scale. My pay coming out of Bankruptcy vs. when we went in is better (2.5% percent higher on the hourly, $5 an hour more for all South Pacific flying and 80 cents an hour more per diem) On top of this my retirement finally got properly funded. All this translates into about $400 dollars a month more take home. Also during the last couple of years I've gotten about $4-5000 dollars in bonus checks (profit sharing). That's the reality of our situation vs. some of the rhetoric floating around (posturing and militant whiners who would complain no matter what they got).
BTW, our guys are furloughed because Gotbaum elected to return 2 767's that we sorely needed than and now. We can be our own worse enemy sometime's as by delaying our exit from BK we lost 3 767's to another bidder.
None of us are perfect, we are all just trying to do what we can to survive in a very volatile industry. If you keep it in perpective, it's still a pretty good way to make a living. AQ, good luck to you guys. I guess you're waiting to hear more from your investor, bottom line is, in the long run I'm sure they have plans to expand, most people don't buy an airline with the intent to shrink it. You guys have plenty of potential and I hope these guys will utilize it.
Anyway, maybe this will clarify why some of us are a little sensitive to people taking potshots at us.
AQ, you mentioned a "booster check" when your guys were furloughed. We voted to make the medical insurance payments of our furloughed pilots out of our pockets. That's not the only thing we have done for them, but the point is I think you'll find both our groups have a little more Ohana in them than most when it counts. We are both pretty tight nit and thats one of the reason the sabers come out when we talk of merging! You do have a point though in that our group has been fractionalized, It is due to having 2 councils. The battle of pilots wanting flying based on the mainland has split our group and you would be shocked at some of the infighting that has taken place over trying to put flying on the west coast.
Earndog raises a good point. Our airlines have two different corporate personalities. Two true stories here to illustrate the diference.
Early 90's when we were struggling, you CEO attended a MEC meeting and annouced that "Hawaiian was going out of business" and received a standing ovation! This came from an Aloha pilot who was there an said he was disgusted by his fellow pilots. Now compare that to a Hawaiian MEC meeting I was at. Paul Casey was there and Aloha had just made a very derogatory remark about us in the press. Someone asked him about it and his comment was "we don't believe in taking potshots at the competition, it's our philosophy to take the high road and worry about making ourselves better rather than try and put down the competition". This also got a round of applause from the attending pilots. These are just two examples of many similar incidents. Your Glen Zander did more to hurt the merger than our anti-merger committees if you ask me.
Over the last 25 years, Hawaiian has had one wild ride. We have been flying all over the world with DC-8's, L-1011's DC-10's and 767's. We have taken our lumps and personify the struggles of Airline deregulation as well as anyone. Our union has delt with issues (some of our own making) that you guys havn't even dreamed about. But we have a lot to show for it, relative to it's size, Hawaiian has been posting the best operating profits in the industry (all the while during our BK we paid every bill, made all our lease payments and funded our retirement). We also kept our working conditions intact and our hourly rate at the upper end of the industry pay scale. My pay coming out of Bankruptcy vs. when we went in is better (2.5% percent higher on the hourly, $5 an hour more for all South Pacific flying and 80 cents an hour more per diem) On top of this my retirement finally got properly funded. All this translates into about $400 dollars a month more take home. Also during the last couple of years I've gotten about $4-5000 dollars in bonus checks (profit sharing). That's the reality of our situation vs. some of the rhetoric floating around (posturing and militant whiners who would complain no matter what they got).
BTW, our guys are furloughed because Gotbaum elected to return 2 767's that we sorely needed than and now. We can be our own worse enemy sometime's as by delaying our exit from BK we lost 3 767's to another bidder.
None of us are perfect, we are all just trying to do what we can to survive in a very volatile industry. If you keep it in perpective, it's still a pretty good way to make a living. AQ, good luck to you guys. I guess you're waiting to hear more from your investor, bottom line is, in the long run I'm sure they have plans to expand, most people don't buy an airline with the intent to shrink it. You guys have plenty of potential and I hope these guys will utilize it.
Anyway, maybe this will clarify why some of us are a little sensitive to people taking potshots at us.
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dash8driver said:
Didn't mean to leave you out, of course your right as I said above there is a different corporate philosophy, but individually, most of us support each other and each side has a few jerks. In support of what Earndog said. I also spoke to an AQ pilot that told me he couldn't believe his basic indoc class. He said most of it consisted of Zander coming in and talking about how screwed up Hawaiian was, he couldn't believe it.
dash8driver
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Dan Roman said:
exactly my point. no group/company is innocent. we hear stuff based on that exact same formula. (other company taking cheapshots) + (we are above that) = (we good) + (they bad). most rational people are aware that some of this is true and some of it is false and no side is innocent.
its funny. we are tight knit in our own groups, but being hawaii this tight knit fabric also extends into the other groups due to friends and family. when our respective irrationals start to lose it, its like a corporate version of the civil war. brothers fighting against brothers, literally.
p.s. almost hurt my feelings til i saw i got a post all to myself!
.
Erndogg
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Good points!! All I got to say is that we pilots and all are other dedicated airline workers that have given thier whole lives to this industry have to support each other and make through this slump.
Merger, no merger, etc... we all have the same aspirations of making a decent living wage, living in a nice home, sending our kids to private school etc..... Aloha pilots on the board-keep us up to date on the goings on over there. If you guys need help picketing tell us!! I'll do my best to support you guys/gals over there and for the guys getting furloughed-good luck guys!! Hopefully you guys/gals can keep busy and make a decent living until this sh__t blows over!!
I'm out!!
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Whale Rider
Unity is Our Strength
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Jim
Fly Navy!
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To defend HAL ALPA and the active pilots, I believe they did all that was possible during the bankruptcy to protect the furloughed guys. Case in point, the company wanted to treat furloughees as new hires for pay and retirement with smaller benefits. The union and active pilots at HAL stood up for the furlughees and beat this down. I even believe it cost the more senior active pilots retirement dollars to do this. To achieve this, the manning formula was changed slightly which will delay the the first 10 or 15 recalls slightly. Let's see - the senior guys give up money and I give up a little longer on furlough. I think that's fair. (Of course I believe neither would have been necessary if Adams did not rape the company and if Butgum was not incompetent.)
dash8driver
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Freight Dog
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Hugh Jorgan
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Laugh if you will, but I want to cry when I look around the industry and watch different kool-aid-drunken pilot groups rationalize ridiculous notions (take the blue-koolaid chuggin, airplane- cleaning-wanna-fly-more-than-8-hours-a-day guys for example).Dan Roman said:
Again, to believe that is naive, but of course, one would have to work at your company to truly understand how it might not beSocalHomey said:
Do you honestly believe that your company keeps one single pilot more on the property than is needed to keep the flight schedule going from day to day? There's no way your super-secret staffing formula does anything more than keep a certain amount of reserves on hand for any given flying day. There's no way it's not based on historical sick rates and open-time-picker-upper rates. There's no way that if every swinging dick who has been taking open time stops doing it, that the "staffing formula" isn't going to call for more reserves to be on hand to cover the open seats that need to be filled.
Call me crazy, but I'm looking at it from a purely unemotional, linear, factual point of view. I don't have a dog in this fight and sometimes that enables a little more objective point of view. I have no agenda against or for HAL pilots. Grow some skin and take a look at simple math... YES, it's FREAKING SIMPLE MATH! Anyone who tells you it's complicated should not be trusted.
X + Y= number of pilots needed per day to cover flights where X is (A + B)
A= pilots assigned trips by their schedule B= Pilots working on off days
Y= number of reserves historically needed to keep (N) reserves standing by to pick up unexpected openings once the open time, vacation, training, etc. has been covered.
When B = 0, then Y MUST be a bigger number than when B is some number greater than 1 in order to keep N relatively constant.
Or perhaps, HAL keeps an extra big supply of Y, just in case B suddenly goes to zero after a long period of B historically being a number greater than 1? I think not. HAL is just like every other airline.
Seriously, I wish you guys all the best and that means recalls soon and profitibility.
I'm still open to reading about how HAL can do this differently, but all you guys do is get emotional and talk about how nobody from the outside could understand. Or....how that we (I) ignore facts. I haven't seen any facts to show me otherwise. I could be wrong. Just show me. Otherwise, don't work on your day off!!!! Go surf, for chrissakes. Chase brown girls. Do something, but don't work on your day off thinking you aren't hurting your brother.
Best of luck.
dash8driver
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Erndogg said:
apparently this information is "G-14 classified"...
they're not telling us anything either. we have to subscribe to the advertiser if we want to know whats going on here. if you want the rumor mill fodder i can tell you that rumor A has it that there is more than one investor and we're still trying to figure out who's the daddy. rumor B has it that we have the investor singled out but all the terms and conditions of the deal arent quite hammered out yet.
even after the name is released, we still have to do the same thing hal did. go through that 30-day period in court to allow other bidders to throw their plan out there, etc.
Freight Dog
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dash8driver
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