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[B19 Flyer]

B19, I asked you this question and all we have heard after all your pro management anti Union BS is crikets, I would like an answer. :erm:

Apples and oranges.


It's simple.

Management contracts are there to attract and retain good employees.

A CBA forces the will of a union onto an unwilling company using hostile methods such as holiday work slowdowns and sickouts.

I like my quiet and happy non-union airline.


Oh, and BTW. I've never worked under a contract, but union contracts have redirected my career using hostile methods.

 

[1folinepilot]

Apples and oranges.


It's simple.

Management contracts are there to attract and retain good employees.

A CBA forces the will of a union onto an unwilling company using hostile methods such as holiday work slowdowns and sickouts.

I like my quiet and happy non-union airline.


Oh, and BTW. I've never worked under a contract, but union contracts have redirected my career using hostile methods.

Bob, Why would you not want a contract that attracts and retains the best pilots? Or is it that you would like to keep it as is so you can jerk us around and dispose of us at will? How about vacating your contract since you see no need for us to have one?

 

[nomore]

Big Favor

Will you guys quit quoting B-19. I have that doofus on ignore and you guys keep shoving him in my face. Don't you realize the guy is irrelevant to the Flight Options situation? He's kind of like Bill O'Rielly, contentious sure but in the end just frivolous talk that signifies nothing.
Thanks in advance

 

[Freedom]

Beating back Bob (I mean B19)

The reason we MUST address B19's inflamatory comments is evident in Presidential political history.

Not too long ago their was a certain governor from the state of Mass (actually it was some time ago) who was attacked on a position he took. I think it was on the Willie Horton issue if I remember correctly.

This particular governor felt that it was beneath him to address the charges related to this issue, and as such, chose to ignor it. Big Mistake!

The opposition put out so much media on this damaging issue that, unanswered by the candidate, the public actually starting believing it, and this governor lost his political battle to become President.

None of us enjoy addressing this idiot. But we need to stay ahead of the curve in this fight. And as such, we must.

Freedom is not Free.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Bob, Why would you not want a contract that attracts and retains the best pilots? Or is it that you would like to keep it as is so you can jerk us around and dispose of us at will? How about vacating your contract since you see no need for us to have one?

Union contracts by the admission of all the proponants on these boards are there to make management "behave" to a standard that the union believes is best for the represented group, not the overall good for the entire company or the non-represented employees that have to suffer through the process.

That isn't a contract that is offered to attract somebody, it's a contract that is contrived by adverse methods and demoralizing tactics.

I don't and have never had an employment contract. Never needed one. The only time I've ever been treated unfairly is when I've been laid off as the result of an unjust labor action by a pilot's union. I like my non-union carrier.

 

[dime line]

Amazing that your able to breath the same air that normal people do

 

[CA1900]

You sure about that, dime line?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/eliese/perriair.jpg

 

[SilverSurfer]

Union contracts by the admission of all the proponants on these boards are there to make management "behave" to a standard that the union believes is best for the represented group, not the overall good for the entire company or the non-represented employees that have to suffer through the process.

That isn't a contract that is offered to attract somebody, it's a contract that is contrived by adverse methods and demoralizing tactics.

I don't and have never had an employment contract. Never needed one. The only time I've ever been treated unfairly is when I've been laid off as the result of an unjust labor action by a pilot's union. I like my non-union carrier.

Dude you must be main lining that management cool aid.

Management could have done or now do the right thing now, but they didn't, and they have continued to do the wrong thing repeatedly for years.. For most of us when management slaps us on one cheek we are not to prone to give them the other. In our case management has repeatedly slapped us in the face proving that we are less then dirt to them.

A union would not have been my first option to fix what is fu(ked up at Option but I saw no other alternative short of leaving the company. I was here first they can leave.

 

[fischman]

Union contracts by the admission of all the proponants on these boards are there to make management "behave" to a standard that the union believes is best for the represented group, not the overall good for the entire company or the non-represented employees that have to suffer through the process.

That isn't a contract that is offered to attract somebody, it's a contract that is contrived by adverse methods and demoralizing tactics.

I don't and have never had an employment contract. Never needed one. The only time I've ever been treated unfairly is when I've been laid off as the result of an unjust labor action by a pilot's union. I like my non-union carrier.

There is no statement in the history of human civilization that has been more wrong than that. We are all more stupid for having read it. Good work.:smash:

 

[dime line]

I had heard from somebody that the dispatch reliability is in the toilet right now? Anybody confirm this?

 

[1folinepilot]

Union contracts by the admission of all the proponants on these boards are there to make management "behave" to a standard that the union believes is best for the represented group, not the overall good for the entire company or the non-represented employees that have to suffer through the process.

That isn't a contract that is offered to attract somebody, it's a contract that is contrived by adverse methods and demoralizing tactics.

I don't and have never had an employment contract. Never needed one. The only time I've ever been treated unfairly is when I've been laid off as the result of an unjust labor action by a pilot's union. I like my non-union carrier.

Bob, Yes Warren Buffett and his Mgt team at Net Jets had a pilot contract forced upon them that now requires them to behave so my question for you now is, Who is suffering at net Jets now? Are they not growing with quarter after quarter record growth? Are they not buying every new airpalne that they can? Are they not hiring new employees for every position in the company? Is their attrition not substantially lower than ours? Are they not taking market share that was once ours?

Who is suffering under the exact contract that we deserve and want?

 

[GooseHZ]

B19 please back away from the koolaid....

"Management contracts are there to attract and retain good employees."


Well B.......ITS NOT WORKING HERE AT FLOPS!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Bob, Yes Warren Buffett and his Mgt team at Net Jets had a pilot contract forced upon them that now requires them to behave so my question for you now is, Who is suffering at net Jets now? Are they not growing with quarter after quarter record growth? Are they not buying every new airpalne that they can? Are they not hiring new employees for every position in the company? Is their attrition not substantially lower than ours? Are they not taking market share that was once ours?

Who is suffering under the exact contract that we deserve and want?

How much was lost during the time frame between voting in the union and the CBA? By NJ standards, profits are meager at best for an operation of that size, albiet they are profits. But, the proof is in the pudding with there is a hiccup and the economy softens. Majors were profitable even with the large contracts, but when the industry hiccuped, nearly all but Delta was forced into bankruptcy protection because the unions didn't act fast enough. The only reason that Delta held off is because they are the least unionized out of all the majors, but even then the pilot's union failed to act and the inevitable happened. Anybody that doesn't think the industry can turn quickly is fooling themselves, and anybody that thinks that the union is sensitive to the profitability to a company is fooling themselves even more. If the company is profitable, the union only sees an opportunity to fatten it's wallet, not to allow job security by allowing the company to plan for the future.

 

[dime line]

How much was lost during the time frame between voting in the union and the CBA? By NJ standards, profits are meager at best for an operation of that size, albiet they are profits. But, the proof is in the pudding with there is a hiccup and the economy softens. Majors were profitable even with the large contracts, but when the industry hiccuped, nearly all but Delta was forced into bankruptcy protection because the unions didn't act fast enough. The only reason that Delta held off is because they are the least unionized out of all the majors, but even then the pilot's union failed to act and the inevitable happened. Anybody that doesn't think the industry can turn quickly is fooling themselves, and anybody that thinks that the union is sensitive to the profitability to a company is fooling themselves even more. If

the company is profitable, the union only sees an opportunity to fatten it's wallet,

not to allow job security by allowing the company to plan for the future.

You mean management fattening their wallets as well, how many admin trips were flown on company planes for flops management this year???

 

[WabiSabi]

Majors were profitable even with the large contracts, but when the industry hiccuped, nearly all but Delta was forced into bankruptcy protection because the unions didn't act fast enough. The only reason that Delta held off is because they are the least unionized out of all the majors, but even then the pilot's union failed to act and the inevitable happened.

Yet more evidence that you're a hack. You forgot to mention one small airline called American. They have never declared bankruptcy.

And, what do you mean the "least unionized"? Is that like being a little bit pregnant or a little bit dead? A pilot group either is or isn't unionized.:smash:

What a tool.

 

[1folinepilot]

How much was lost during the time frame between voting in the union and the CBA? By NJ standards, profits are meager at best for an operation of that size, albiet they are profits. But, the proof is in the pudding with there is a hiccup and the economy softens. Majors were profitable even with the large contracts, but when the industry hiccuped, nearly all but Delta was forced into bankruptcy protection because the unions didn't act fast enough. The only reason that Delta held off is because they are the least unionized out of all the majors, but even then the pilot's union failed to act and the inevitable happened. Anybody that doesn't think the industry can turn quickly is fooling themselves, and anybody that thinks that the union is sensitive to the profitability to a company is fooling themselves even more. If the company is profitable, the union only sees an opportunity to fatten it's wallet, not to allow job security by allowing the company to plan for the future.

Bob, Why do you allways have to blame the pilots for managements inability to react to the ever changing market and turn a profit? The NJA pilots were simply doing their jobs as they were trained, required and expected to do and it was their management that chose not to work with them. Once their Management team chose to work with the pilot group with a CBA, they had record profits and growth!

The only difference is that NJA mgt now works with their pilots as a valuable asset instead of treating them as an annoying liability.

 

[gutshotdraw]

And, what do you mean the "least unionized"? Is that like being a little bit pregnant or a little bit dead? A pilot group either is or isn't unionized.:smash:

What a tool.

Not to defend B19 but he was referring to the fact that Delta's pilots are union but the vast majority of the company's other employee groups are not. If memory serves, only the dispatchers or some other small group of employees are union besides the pilots. Mechanics, flight attendants, rampers, etc. are not union. Delta has the lowest percentage of unionized employees of any major U.S. airline.

Details clarified. Resume B19 bashing.

 

[Guitar Guy]

AA has unions for its pilots, mechanics, dispatchers, flight attendants and rampers yet they didn't file bankruptcy in the wake of 9/11.

And Don Carty lost his job for trying to get the unions to accept concessionary contracts under the guise of shared pain while secretly setting up "retention bonuses" for select management personnel.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Not to defend B19 but he was referring to the fact that Delta's pilots are union but the vast majority of the company's other employee groups are not. If memory serves, only the dispatchers or some other small group of employees are union besides the pilots. Mechanics, flight attendants, rampers, etc. are not union. Delta has the lowest percentage of unionized employees of any major U.S. airline.

Details clarified. Resume B19 bashing.

Thank you, it's only the pilots and dispatchers. For that reason bankruptcy was held off the longest there. I need to remind those that mentioned AA, that the pilot's union did not act until management was walking up the stairs to the courthouse and they realized that they needed to do something before the judge forced them to. They didn't act in the best interest of the carrier, they acted in the best interest of the union.

 

[Guitar Guy]

So why did Don Carty leave AA?