Options

[Ultra Grump]

Majors were profitable even with the large contracts, but when the industry hiccuped, nearly all but Delta was forced into bankruptcy protection because the unions didn't act fast enough.

BS. Since you're supposedly "airline management," here's a tip for you to help your carrier avoid bankruptcy during the next "hiccup:" charge the customer at least what it costs to provide the service. If fuel prices go up (the last "hiccup"), so should the ticket prices, rather than hitting the employees up for concessions.

 

[dime line]

BS. Since you're supposedly "airline management," here's a tip for you to help your carrier avoid bankruptcy during the next "hiccup:" charge the customer at least what it costs to provide the service. If fuel prices go up (the last "hiccup"), so should the ticket prices, rather than hitting the employees up for concessions.

Hes too dumb to understand what you said.......Because he is part of the management team that can't figure that out........

 

[WabiSabi]

I need to remind those that mentioned AA, that the pilot's union did not act until management was walking up the stairs to the courthouse and they realized that they needed to do something before the judge forced them to. They didn't act in the best interest of the carrier, they acted in the best interest of the union.

Nice try. Sorry Bob, you're glossing over your gross omission doesn't cut it. You were caught with your pants down because you omitted one "minor" fact. I wouldn't hold you to this but, since you pay so much lip service to your exalted knowledge of the industry, it is inexcusable. It's simple. You're reaching.

Babble on Bob, babble on.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Spiral continues

The death spiral continues at Options.

For the second year in a row management has screwed its employees by reducing benefits and raising the cost.

When their peak travel season is a disaster this year and charter sell off cost them 50 mil just to keep the doors open they will blame the pilots. All they need to do to understand what is wrong at Flops is look in the mirror. Sh!thead and Baboo need to go.

This place is a joke.

 

[dash_trash]

Babu - Wikipedia

In British India, "Babu" was a term used to describe a native Indian clerk. The word was originally used as a term of respect attached to a proper name, but later, especially when used alone and not as a suffix, was a derogatory word signifying a semi-literate native, with a mere veneer of modern education. In the early 20th century the term Babu was frequently used to refer to bureaucrats and other government officials, especially by the Indian media; in this sense the word hints at corrupt or lazy work practices. It can also mean the pimp or client of a sex worker. The term babu has thus fallen out of favour in polite society, since it may be taken as an insult.

:laugh:

 

[SilverSurfer]

So Sorry

In British India, "Babu" was a term used to describe a native Indian clerk. The word was originally used as a term of respect attached to a proper name, but later, especially when used alone and not as a suffix, was a derogatory word signifying a semi-literate native, with a mere veneer of modern education. In the early 20th century the term Babu was frequently used to refer to bureaucrats and other government officials, especially by the Indian media; in this sense the word hints at corrupt or lazy work practices. It can also mean the pimp or client of a sex worker. The term babu has thus fallen out of favour in polite society, since it may be taken as an insult.

So sorry my brother, I didn't know the proper spelling of our esteemed second in command's new name. "Babu" goes right along with Sh!thead!:laugh:

 

[FRLWD]

I need to remind those that mentioned AA, that the pilot's union did not act until management was walking up the stairs to the courthouse and they realized that they needed to do something before the judge forced them to. They didn't act in the best interest of the carrier, they acted in the best interest of the union.

You keep regurgitating the same lies over and over again.

The pilots union at AA refused to take concessions until management allowed them to look at the books, so they could make an informed decision. Management agreed; the pilots signed non-disclosure agreements, hired corporate finance attorneys to help sift through the information, then drafted a concessionary contract based on the information and advice provided by their attorneys.................A far cry from chasing management up the courthouse steps.

What's next? You going to regurgitate those articles about airline finance from seven years ago?

 

[B19 Flyer]

You keep regurgitating the same lies over and over again.

The pilots union at AA refused to take concessions until management allowed them to look at the books, so they could make an informed decision. Management agreed; the pilots signed non-disclosure agreements, hired corporate finance attorneys to help sift through the information, then drafted a concessionary contract based on the information and advice provided by their attorneys.................A far cry from chasing management up the courthouse steps.

What's next? You going to regurgitate those articles about airline finance from seven years ago?

Let me rephrase my statement. The union didn't act until the carrier was on the edge of bankruptcy. The financial situation didn't happen overnight, it never does. The union ALWAYS waits until the carrier is financially drained before acting, even when the writing is already on the wall as it was early in 2001. Instead of acting with with the best interest of the carrier and the employees the union represents, they would rather wait until the rank and file employees go through several layoffs, a hiring freeze and furloughs. Then, the carrier is forced to use a tool such as bankruptcy to reduce labor costs to a point where the carrier can survive.

Oh, and as far as the seven year old info, that was only to point out that the industry was hurting LONG before 9/11. But the unions as always failed to act.

 

[SilverSurfer]

All mighty management

B19 or Bob T. who gives a sh!t. They are obviously cut from the same piece of defective cloth. Both have the opinion that management is the pinnacle of achievement in aviation, that management is the fix for all that ails us, and that they/management should prosper in bad times while their employees should take it in the shorts. He and Bob think all of us pilots are a bunch of ignorant whining "A types" that should just be thankful that we have a job and do what ever he and his mooron PM/PSM group tells us...:angryfire NOT happening Bob.

B19 talked about the Airlines Unions and the pilots waiting till looming bankruptcy before giving concessions. At least they did pitch in to help. But what about management, did they take cuts in pay and benefits, did they work more, if they did are they now going to have fight to get back what they gave up. Hell no. In fact they will get large bonuses far and above anything they may have given up and far more then the pilots will get.

B19/Bob you have have a VERY biased, one sided view of the world. In your world management is everything and everyone else is here to serve them....
uke: NOT

 

[dime line]

Let me rephrase my statement. The union didn't act until the carrier was on the edge of bankruptcy. The financial situation didn't happen overnight, it never does. The union ALWAYS waits until the carrier is financially drained before acting, even when the writing is already on the wall as it was early in 2001. Instead of acting with with the best interest of the carrier and the employees the union represents, they would rather wait until the rank and file employees go through several layoffs, a hiring freeze and furloughs. Then, the carrier is forced to use a tool such as bankruptcy to reduce labor costs to a point where the carrier can survive.

Oh, and as far as the seven year old info, that was only to point out that the industry was hurting LONG before 9/11. But the unions as always failed to act.

you say the unions fail to act, what about you and your management not acting right now here at FLOPS, do you have a matrix on the number of owners that have left, why have they left you ask? just look at your boss. have you figured out where your gonna get new pilots? have you figured it out that were gonna fight you till the very end?

 

[FRLWD]

Let me rephrase my statement. The union didn't act until the carrier was on the edge of bankruptcy. The financial situation didn't happen overnight, it never does. The union ALWAYS waits until the carrier is financially drained before acting, even when the writing is already on the wall as it was early in 2001. Instead of acting with with the best interest of the carrier and the employees the union represents, they would rather wait until the rank and file employees go through several layoffs, a hiring freeze and furloughs. Then, the carrier is forced to use a tool such as bankruptcy to reduce labor costs to a point where the carrier can survive.

Oh, and as far as the seven year old info, that was only to point out that the industry was hurting LONG before 9/11. But the unions as always failed to act.

We've covered this FUD before. As usual you want to pin the blame solely on the unions.

Would you care to refresh everyones memory as to why Don Carty resigned?

 

[buckeyes95]

Hey B19, please tell me when mgmt ever took a pay cut to help out? You are a real f n tool.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Hey B19, please tell me when mgmt ever took a pay cut to help out? You are a real f n tool.

2006
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/31/AR2006053100892.html

Delta's pilots, the only unionized work group at the airline, were the last employees to agree to concessions. The airline's flight attendants, baggage handlers and customer service agents have agreed to cuts of 7 percent to 9 percent. The airline's salaried employees agreed to a 9 percent cut. Delta's senior officers took a 15 percent pay reduction and chief executive Gerald Grinstein's pay was reduced by 25 percent.

2005

By ERIC DASH (NYT)
Published: December 16, 2004
Gerald A. Grinstein, the chief executive of Delta Air Lines, said yesterday that he would accept a salary of $450,000 in 2005 after giving up half of his $500,000 yearly pay in 2004 as the company staves off bankruptcy. Delta said Mr. Grinstein's $500,000 salary would remain the same, but he would take a 10 percent pay cut along with all other executives and salaried workers. Delta's pilots, the airline's only unionized labor group, accepted a 32.5 percent pay reduction in November. In September, Mr. Grinstein said that he would "lead the way" by forgoing $125,000, or the final three months of his salary, as the airline announced plans to cut $5 billion in costs and eliminate as many as 7,000 jobs through 2006.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9501E6DE1430F935A25751C1A9629C8B63

2004

Delta said Mr. Grinstein also declined $125,000 in pay during the first quarter of 2004, but did not disclose the pay reduction at the time. Eric Dash (NYT)

2003

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2003-12-24-delta-bonuses_x.htm


Delta cancels exec bonuses for 2003
ATLANTA (AP) — Delta Air Lines is canceling executive bonuses for this year and reconsidering its entire compensation program for high-ranking officials as it works to allay lingering employee resentment over lavish pay and perks for top executives.

 

[B19 Flyer]

We've covered this FUD before. As usual you want to pin the blame solely on the unions.

Would you care to refresh everyones memory as to why Don Carty resigned?

It is well known that he made a mistake. But he has also gone on to great success elsewhere and is currently the Vice Chairman and CFO at Dell, not to mention serving as Chairman at Virgin America.

Unions can't stand talented people.

Oh, and unions aren't the root of all evil because they have had there place in America. But last I knew, pilots don't emerge out of coal mines and steel mills. The government has oversight of many of the original items that organized labor as created to protect. Quality of life issues for those folks didn't include six figure salaries and 10 days or more off a month. They organized for survival during a time where government oversight barely existed.

 

[skyismyoffice]

But last I knew, pilots don't emerge out of coal mines and steel mills.

Funny you should say that as my background is very similar to those industries. I wanted something better for myself - something where I might earn some respect. Boy did I pick wrong!

I have never felt more like a disposable asset than I do at FLOPs. This is the root of the current labor dispute. You piss of your labor and they'll either rise up to fight back or leave. Both are happening now!

Let's not talk about kicking someone when they are down either. We are already making the lowest wages in the industry and we get another kick in the nuts - a health insurance increase. Again, my cost of living increase for giving another year of my life to this company is whittled away...

Stop trying to blame the pilots and the union for the state of FLOPs. If things will ever be made right, it will have to come from the arrogant group of 'leaders' at FLOPs.

 

[FRLWD]

It is well known that he made a mistake.

Yes......A big greedy mistake that was the root cause for the breakdown of negotiations.

Unions can't stand talented people.

Wrong. Unions love capable dynamic leaders. They hate untalented hacks, like Shrinka and babu. Let's face it, any dolt can freeze pay and slash benefits to save money. It takes a talented leader to turn a company around without completely demoralizing the workforce.

Oh, and unions aren't the root of all evil because they have had there place in America. But last I knew, pilots don't emerge out of coal mines and steel mills. The government has oversight of many of the original items that organized labor as created to protect. Quality of life issues for those folks didn't include six figure salaries and 10 days or more off a month. They organized for survival during a time where government oversight barely existed.

Coal Miners and Mill workers? You really are reaching this time.

 

[fischman]

Unions can't stand talented people.

You are completely wrong. Unions can't stand people like yourself. The irony is, that if you were a dues paying member, we would still represent you to the best of our abilities. Your broad generalizations are becoming tiresome.


As a matter of fact, we at NetJets just hired a new Director of Training who has made some extremely positive changes. The pilots and union leadership are impressed with him thus far.

 

[Usual Suspect]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/31/AR2006053100892.htmlDelta's pilots, the only unionized work group at the airline, were the last employees to agree to concessions.

Obviously the pilots would be the last to agree to concessions. They were the only ones that agreed to anything. Since they were the only unionized work group at the airline, the other work groups simply had their pay cuts imposed on them. Management didn't require their assent. What a complete idiot you are B19.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Obviously the pilots would be the last to agree to concessions. They were the only ones that agreed to anything. Since they were the only unionized work group at the airline, the other work groups simply had their pay cuts imposed on them. Management didn't require their assent. What a complete idiot you are B19.

Now don't go confusing that management apologist with logic and facts. And please don't try to show him examples of management ineptitude - it just confounds him further.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Obviously the pilots would be the last to agree to concessions. They were the only ones that agreed to anything. Since they were the only unionized work group at the airline, the other work groups simply had their pay cuts imposed on them. Management didn't require their assent. What a complete idiot you are B19.

Delta also had the fewest "forced" layoffs of rank and file employees than any other comparable carrier. On top of that, they held their jobs longer before they were laid off.