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[gunfyter]

Your statement about pilots being the most important employees in an air carrier is egotistical.

What could possibly be as important as Pilots?

The next most important person is the person that cuts paychecks for pilots. Actually -- that person is more important than all the other pilots besides me!

Our company has said they want UNION pilots flying our airplanes. Because you don't want pilots pressured by Pax or management types.

You probably have never had a Billionaire passenger yell and scream that "He owns this F'n AIRPLANE!" and thats why I should break TSA and FAA regulations. But I have.

With no union you either fly that trip or you don't have a job anymore.

 

[dime line]

What could possibly be as important as Pilots?

The next most important person is the person that cuts paychecks for pilots. Actually -- that person is more important than all the other pilots besides me!

Our company has said they want UNION pilots flying our airplanes. Because you don't want pilots pressured by Pax or management types.

You probably have never had a Billionaire passenger yell and scream that "He owns this F'n AIRPLANE!" and thats why I should break TSA and FAA regulations. But I have.

With no union you either fly that trip or you don't have a job anymore.

You have to understand bob (I mean B19) is the guy that is telling us to break TSA and FAA rules, so the first to pressure, is Bob, and then the rich dude gets his turn

 

[realityman]

Your statement about pilots being the most important employees in an air carrier is egotistical. My statements are geared specifically at those that have never been in a union and think that it's the answer because there is some other union member forcing Kool-aid down their throat. It's not. You guys in unions are stuck with them. Enjoy them right up until the bankruptcy or furloughs. Then you can continue to blame management because they weren't smart enough to be profitable when saddled with an unreasonable contract that they were forced into by union tactics.

The FLOPS guys voted the union in and are living in the predictable nightmare leading up to the first CBA and all the problems of implementation once there is a TA. As many as four or more years is normal. Handcuffing and threatening the company with a union isn't the answer, it ALWAYS creates pushback, you asked for it, you got it. Be careful what you ask for. Four years is a long time in this industry, and the economy of aviation can change on a dime. If there were more guys on these threads that took the time to point out some of the crap that unions have pulled to continue to educate those before they get into something that they can't get out of, I wouldn't bother. Every now and then others show up, then I become quiet as I'm not the only voice.

I'll never support a union, and busting a union isn't my game. To me, the only good union is one that stays off the property to begin with.

Those companies that don't have unions give safe haven for guys like me that have been continuously screwed over by unions. Thankfully there are still a lot of them out there. There is a lot to this industry that is behind the scenes, and I can tell you right up front from first hand experience that I've never been involved with a union that had anything in mind except to pillage the company for every last cent of profit the company has and placed the company at risk of safety and economic hardship.

I'm no more of a journeyman than any other aviation professional that was laid off due to a union action. It's part of the business unless you stay away from air carriers with unions. By going with a non-union carrier, my career is in my hands, because I'll be damned if anybody (especially a union) is going to speak for me.

Oh come on now, B19!! Really. Fearmongering is a typical management tactic, not union.

"Can't get rid of a union"?. Puh-leeze! Have you even bothered tp research what went on/is going on at NJA? All it took was a bunch of p!ssed-off pilots to vote our old union out, and a new one in. What's that you say? But see, we STILL have a union? Of course, because the group decided we were still better off with representation than without. But make no mistake, we could have EASILY gotten rid of the union altogether had we wanted to. It really is nothing more than a vote. And you know, when it looked like our old local 284 was going to lose power, I don't recall anyone showing up at my door with a baseball bat threatenting to break my knees if I didn't vote their way.

A union is a detriment to safety?! Based on what, might I ask? Thanks to our union at NJA, we can call fatigued without any fear of disciplinary action. We can actually write discrepancies up without fear of retribution. And our UNION has been pressing hard for NJA to educate its pilot force about past and ongoing incidents and problems in the fleets, whereas management's position has always been to keep us in the dark so we can never learn from anything that happens.

UNIONS push companies to bankruptcy? Come now B19. First off, when times are good, why shouldn't the employees share in the bounty? As for the vagaries of the economy, it's hard to predict the good times and bad in aviation. But when times are bad, I notice that unions (at the airlines anyways) do give plenty of concessions. Now the next thing out of your mouth is that they only give concessions when FORCED to by management or bankruptcy proceedings, but I would counter with not any more than the management that has to be FORCED to share the bounty when times are good. By the way, for the most part, rich people will be rich regardless of what the economy does. It could happen, but it's unlikely that the fractionals will follow the same cyclical patterns that the airlines do with the economy because we have a clientele whose fortunes don't go completely bust with the ups and downs of the economy. In other words, a much more stable base for the fractionals.

I'm not sure about the airlines, but at the fractionals, the pilots ARE the most important employees. Not only do we fly the planes (safely and efficiently) from point A to B, but we are the face of the company that the clients see. We are the providers of the top-notch service actually occuring on the road. We are the real-time problem solvers that makes are clients' experience with us a good one. Management can provide us with the tools to make it happen, but make no mistake, the pilots are the ones that make it happen.

I actually agree with you that unions aren't always the answer. But once you've exhausted the avenue of talking and asking and even begging, with no result, where do you go? Jump from company to company hoping to find a good one? What a lousy way to spend a career. And I wonder if some of the good companies that are non-union only treat their employees well because they're afraid of a union coming on property. A nice indirect, but positive, effect unions have on the industry.

So what if it's a long, difficult fight for that first CBA? It certainly was at NJA, but you know what? It turned out to be well worht the fight! You think a union shouldn't be present because things will be difficult? What a defeatist attitude! Of course it'll be tough! But few things worth the fight aren't!

By the way, with our 'plush' new contract at NJA, I can't help but notice that we're making bigger profits than ever. Our union pushing our company to bankruptcy?! Do you do ANY research before making your posts?

I haven't posted here in a while, but I couldn't resist countering the tripe you're spewing. You aren't, by chance, related to FamilyGuy are you?

 

[Phoenix]

Full Of Shiet

Your statement about pilots being the most important employees in an air carrier is egotistical. My statements are geared specifically at those that have never been in a union and think that it's the answer because there is some other union member forcing Kool-aid down their throat. It's not. You guys in unions are stuck with them. Enjoy them right up until the bankruptcy or furloughs. Then you can continue to blame management because they weren't smart enough to be profitable when saddled with an unreasonable contract that they were forced into by union tactics.

The FLOPS guys voted the union in and are living in the predictable nightmare leading up to the first CBA and all the problems of implementation once there is a TA. As many as four or more years is normal. Handcuffing and threatening the company with a union isn't the answer, it ALWAYS creates pushback, you asked for it, you got it. Be careful what you ask for. Four years is a long time in this industry, and the economy of aviation can change on a dime. If there were more guys on these threads that took the time to point out some of the crap that unions have pulled to continue to educate those before they get into something that they can't get out of, I wouldn't bother. Every now and then others show up, then I become quiet as I'm not the only voice.

I'll never support a union, and busting a union isn't my game. To me, the only good union is one that stays off the property to begin with.

Those companies that don't have unions give safe haven for guys like me that have been continuously screwed over by unions. Thankfully there are still a lot of them out there. There is a lot to this industry that is behind the scenes, and I can tell you right up front from first hand experience that I've never been involved with a union that had anything in mind except to pillage the company for every last cent of profit the company has and placed the company at risk of safety and economic hardship.

I'm no more of a journeyman than any other aviation professional that was laid off due to a union action. It's part of the business unless you stay away from air carriers with unions. By going with a non-union carrier, my career is in my hands, because I'll be damned if anybody (especially a union) is going to speak for me.

Dude you are so full of Shiet that you are not even worth exchanging words with.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Dude you are so full of Shiet that you are not even worth exchanging words with.

Another know it all statement by a newcomer. (Less than 15 years in the industry and/or has never had the courage to be a manager.)

Hang in there, what goes around comes around. Every time the CBA has to be renegotiated, it’s hell on earth for everybody and distracts from the true mission which is to move the people in the tube safely.

Non-union carriers don’t have to worry about that, and neither do I anymore. Get some experience, go through multiple negotiations and see if this isn’t true. Get mad at management if you would like to, but until you’ve got the nuts to walk in their shoes, you don’t have the right to complain.

The NJ guys talk so fondly of their contract, just like the United, American, USAir and Delta pilots did 7 years ago. None of them are singing the same song now because all of the unions dragged their feet instead of acting quickly. Only Delta was able to hold out the longest because they are the least unionized and even in the end they were still forced into bankruptcy by a pilot's union that didn't act fast enough to stop it even though they could have easily.

So, for you NJ guys... enjoy your plush contract. When the industry stutters, there will be far more discord at NJ than at any of the other non-union fractionals, just like there was more discord at the majors than there was at the second tier non-union carriers. Be careful what you ask for!

 

[jetwash]

]So, for you NJ guys... enjoy your plush contract. When the industry stutters, there will be far more discord at NJ than at any of the other non-union fractionals, just like there was more discord at the majors than there was at the second tier non-union carriers. Be careful what you ask for!

Watch out all the owners we fly now will run to the airlines so they can enjoy air travel again. :laugh:

 

[realityman]

Another know it all statement by a newcomer. (Less than 15 years in the industry and/or has never had the courage to be a manager.)

Hang in there, what goes around comes around. Every time the CBA has to be renegotiated, it’s hell on earth for everybody and distracts from the true mission which is to move the people in the tube safely.

Non-union carriers don’t have to worry about that, and neither do I anymore. Get some experience, go through multiple negotiations and see if this isn’t true. Get mad at management if you would like to, but until you’ve got the nuts to walk in their shoes, you don’t have the right to complain.

The NJ guys talk so fondly of their contract, just like the United, American, USAir and Delta pilots did 7 years ago. None of them are singing the same song now because all of the unions dragged their feet instead of acting quickly. Only Delta was able to hold out the longest because they are the least unionized and even in the end they were still forced into bankruptcy by a pilot's union that didn't act fast enough to stop it even though they could have easily.

So, for you NJ guys... enjoy your plush contract. When the industry stutters, there will be far more discord at NJ than at any of the other non-union fractionals, just like there was more discord at the majors than there was at the second tier non-union carriers. Be careful what you ask for!

Do you actually believe what your write? Hello! McFly! Anybody home?! The economy DID falter. Big time! Right after 9/11. Hmmm.......we sure did suffer at NJA....NOT! Would it be pointing out the obvious that we are not an airline? Should I repeat my point about our client base and how the rich, generally speaking, will always be rich and less affected by the ups and downs of the economy? interesting how you selectively choose which words and sentences you pay attention to.

Like Jetwash said, not likely to see our owners doing a sprint back to the 'convenience' and 'comfort' of the airlines.

Could things take a major downturn at NJA? Of course! NOTHING in life is certain. But your comparison to the airlines is so far out in left field it's pretty useless. Yes, we have a great new contract. But a 5th year captain at NJA makes $90K. What was a 5th year captain making at the majors when things went down the crapper? We have a very long way to go before our wages approach what the legacy carriers used to pay. Actually, for the most part, we still aren't near what the legacy carriers pay. And there's also the matter of productivity. Senior legacy captains could make upwards of $250K (before things went bad) and only work 8 or 9 days a month. Not much productivity for that kind of money. even with our good union, we'll probably never be working less than 15 days a month.

And there are so many other differences between us and the airlines I just don't have the energy to point out everything. But a big one is that while we still harbor some ill will towards the company, our union is actively working WITH the company to make it better, not just for the pilots, but as a long term career, meaning helping the company be more effiecient and safer. How many unions at the majors work closely WITH management to make everything work? Hmmm? In spite of some of the posts on flightinfo, we are actually not in an adversarial relationship with management.

Oh, it was hell on earth negotiating our current CBA. You have some truth to it there. But we didn't experience any sort of uptick in accidents or incidents during that time, so I'm not sure why you think safety is compromised during negotiations. Our group remained very focused on flying safely during that period.

Like I said, try doing a little research before making inane statements that don't hold up under the first glimmer of daylight.

 

[CA1900]

Every time the CBA has to be renegotiated, it’s hell on earth for everybody and distracts from the true mission which is to move the people in the tube safely.

At my last job -- at a non-union carrier -- I instead had to worry about paying my bills, my health premiums skyrocketing, days off disappearing, and my domicile closing for the fourth time on very short notice.

Why? Because there was no contract to lay down the ground rules. My life was upended repeatedly by management with reckless disregard for what it did to its employees' lives and families.

That is what distracts from the "true mission."

 

[Number$Cruncher]

Another know it all statement by a newcomer. (Less than 15 years in the industry and/or has never had the courage to be a manager.) ...So, for you NJ guys... enjoy your plush contract. When the industry stutters, there will be far more discord at NJ than at any of the other non-union fractionals, just like there was more discord at the majors than there was at the second tier non-union carriers. Be careful what you ask for!

B19, as much as I agree with much of what you said (sorry all), if you're really management you need to get off this board and get back to work.

For one thing - it looks like you posted this on company time, and for another, you have no business even appearing to play a company management role in this forum.

Listen (read) if you must, but devote your time and energy to communicating whatever messages you are authorized to send through the appropriate outbound channels. If you do not have the ability to influence those channels in a meaningful and appropriate way due to internal political considerations, I suggest you reconsider your role within the organization.

 

[Fozzy]

Where there is a buck to be made, you can guarranty a union is there with it's greedy hands.

Oh excuse me for wanting to make a descent living. I guess the jerk offs in management are the only ones worthy of a good life.
Troll.