NWA wants DOH

[ACL65PILOT]

We all have our view points, I have made them quite clear to those who represent our pilot group. We voted in the TFA, now lets see what happens.

I have not issues arguing the merits of either sides ideas or proposals, that is what makes this board fun, but remember it will never effect the outcome of what our MEC's are working on.

 

[PuffDriver]

I guess you could lump them into 3 categories then:

NWA's 60+ 747's/330s with DAL's 10 777s.

75/76 Class aircraft (large NB/tiny old WB)

737/A320/DC-9/MD-80

Combine those groupings with a dynamic list to consider respective retirements and you're getting closer. Without dynamic, this would be a huge windfall for the DAL side as DAL has very little premium widebody flying as they only have 10 777s-that's it!

Schwanker

Cracks me up that you guys really do believe this super premium widebody crap, and that Delta pilots are the elitists.

I see where this is going:

US: Your position before the merger should determine your position after the merger
NWA: But we have premium wide body flying
US: But the facts are that we have more pilots, better seniority for our longevity, get paid much more per aircraft, do more international flying, have a better contract, will have to hire while you guys furlough, etc, etc, etc.
NWA:No, pay rates from before can't be used, you moron, per the agreement.
US: Well, not really. The agreement states that the FI NWA threat of notes passed during the JCBA cannot be used. IOW both sides are starting with a clean slate, and previous positions cannot be used against either body.
NWA:<silence>
NWA: But we have super premium wide body flying and Narita.
US: Be that as it may, ALPA policy requires the protection of one group sacrificing against the windfall of another group.
NWA: Yes, but the timeline is not under ALPA merger policy, therefore none of it is. And besides, we have Narita, and all of that Hella super duper premium wide body flying.
US: Again, if you reference the Delta MEC update 08-01, you will see that both parties agreed to conduct the hearing in accordance with ALPA merger and fragmentetion policy.
NWA: You Delta elitists. You can't even spell fragmentation correctly. That plus our awesome posiition at Narita with our amazingly premium double gold standard wide body flying pretty much proves we are right. DOH is a lock and you'd better start accepting it.
US: Well, if you are going to point out spelling errors occurring in the interest of internet typing brevity, I should point out that you just misspelled "position".
NWA:<silence>
US: That's pretty much what I thought.
NWA: <holding breath until they get what they want again>

 

[Schwanker]

Cracks me up that you guys really do believe this super premium widebody crap, and that Delta pilots are the elitists.

I see where this is going:

US: Your position before the merger should determine your position after the merger
NWA: But we have premium wide body flying
US: But the facts are that we have more pilots, better seniority for our longevity, get paid much more per aircraft, do more international flying, have a better contract, will have to hire while you guys furlough, etc, etc, etc.
NWA:No, pay rates from before can't be used, you moron, per the agreement.
US: Well, not really. The agreement states that the FI NWA threat of notes passed during the JCBA cannot be used. IOW both sides are starting with a clean slate, and previous positions cannot be used against either body.
NWA:<silence>
NWA: But we have super premium wide body flying and Narita.
US: Be that as it may, ALPA policy requires the protection of one group sacrificing against the windfall of another group.
NWA: Yes, but the timeline is not under ALPA merger policy, therefore none of it is. And besides, we have Narita, and all of that Hella super duper premium wide body flying.
US: Again, if you reference the Delta MEC update 08-01, you will see that both parties agreed to conduct the hearing in accordance with ALPA merger and fragmentetion policy.
NWA: You Delta elitists. You can't even spell fragmentation correctly. That plus our awesome posiition at Narita with our amazingly premium double gold standard wide body flying pretty much proves we are right. DOH is a lock and you'd better start accepting it.
US: Well, if you are going to point out spelling errors occurring in the interest of internet typing brevity, I should point out that you just misspelled "position".
NWA:<silence>
US: That's pretty much what I thought.
NWA: <holding breath until they get what they want again>

Well, I guess you do have 10 777s. That's it-10!

Other than that, you have 75/76 class aircraft, yet you believe you should hold 80% plus of the 65 NWA 747/330 aircraft positions a few years down the road. You really are an elitist! In case you didn't realize it, payrates have been established at the new airline.

And, why was it DAL ALPA asked to have the 330 rates reduced in LOA 19? Now that's a real union. You're a joke!

Schwanker

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Posted 2 years ago by FelixF16

As a former Delta 73N F/O, I’ve read with amusement the excited postings of those contemplating a career with my former employer…

Now a first-year law student, I recently sat in on a no-fault auto insurance arbitration hearing. The plaintiff, aged 25 or so, was trying to recover for medical bills and lost wages resulting from a car accident. Part of his testimony involved his compensation. The hourly pay rate for the unskilled labor he performs as a utility company equipment yard operator is nearly $30.00 per hour. Straight pay puts him right at $60K per year, with fully-paid health bennies, retirement, etc. With the opportunity to work at double-pay two days per week, this guy could easily pull-in $70-$90K per year just by working hard. No skills required, no special training, no "recurrent," no FAA medical to pass. This is simply a young guy with no formal education who works as a union-represented laborer. I believe that his compensation shows him to be well-represented indeed.
By contrast, major airline pilots have expressly approved the implosion of their - and my former - profession. Rather than capitalizing on unity and strategic action to hold the line and thus force management to look elsewhere for cost cuts, we (actually, and more correctly, "most of us") voted to implement the mass wastage of a formerly valuable career. I truly believe that pilot unions failed to counter the management-fomented fear and doubt that caused most pilots to, even if reluctantly, knuckle-under.

My classmates scoff - perhaps a bit unrealistically, but they do indeed scoff - at jobs that begin at $150K per year. It’s clear that prospective new Delta pilots will now queue-up by the thousands for an opportunity to earn less than one-third of that figure. It is truly disheartening for me to know so many great friends who have been - and will for years to come be - subjected to low pay, loss of retirement, and poor working conditions negotiated by the sad lot that represents Delta pilots. It's much more depressing to understand that the whole mess was affirmed by former colleagues who lacked the confidence to stand-up for themselves and their families. And I'm now very much amazed in anticipating the droves who'll compete to be the next group to be played by Delta (or USAirways, or NWA, as the case may turn out to be) management, and end-up disappointed with their union representation.

Best to all who tried in vain to keep this profession viable. To those now entering the fray, good luck.

This was posted by MCDU a little less than 3 years ago.
Marty claimed here that he was hired at US Airways in 1997:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=848465#post848411

Then shortly thereafter, he wrote here, that he doesn't even work for US Air:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=848465#post848465

Oh wait, it gets better. Then in Jan of 2007, this ****************************** bag claims that he was a 1993 hire at UAL:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1224345#post1224345

Hey dickhead, shouldn't you be getting ready for the annual Gulfstream reunion party?

You have been proven for the fraud that you are. Now, take a long walk on a freeway kid. I'm sure by now recess is over.

 

[PuffDriver]

Well, I guess you do have 10 777s. That's it-10!

Other than that, you have 75/76 class aircraft, yet you believe you should hold 80% plus of the 65 NWA 747/330 aircraft positions a few years down the road. You really are an elitist! In case you didn't realize it, payrates have been established at the new airline.

And, why was it DAL ALPA asked to have the 330 rates reduced in LOA 19? Now that's a real union. You're a joke!

Schwanker

Yawn, my point is proven yet again. You guys never will wise up, neither will your lawyer. The only question is will you continue holding your breath if you lose?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I still think that it is funny that you think the 767 is not a wide body. What is it? A wide narrow body?
Geez

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I still think that it is funny that you think the 767 is not a wide body. What is it? A wide narrow body?
Geez

Its just not super duper, ultra premium, radical gnarly, really cool, awsome wide body!

 

[MXAV8R]

Superpilot, gotta stop wasting time on this idiot. I'm with you, but he'll never see your point. It's a shame, because 99% of the DAL pilots you meet are great guys, but THIS is where the "$hit don't stink" stigma comes from.

There are a few bad (or blindly arrogant) apples in every barrel. Don't judge the whole group by this guy.

MX, I'm glad you're proud of where you work. However your tact and humility leave plenty to be desired. Consider how you may come across to those less fortunate (or dare I say lucky???) than yourself.

Okay...I'll take a lashing...My post did come across arrogant. I without a doubt know how lucky I am... And,yes, luck has a big role in this industry. We all want whats fair for both pilot groups.

 

[Schwanker]

I still think that it is funny that you think the 767 is not a wide body. What is it? A wide narrow body?
Geez

It's the smallest wide body there is and is jointly classed with large narrow bodies. It also goes very junior on your list, which goes to show it isn't the premium flying the larger (>500K) wide bodies are.

Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

Its just not super duper, ultra premium, radical gnarly, really cool, awsome wide body!

Scope-that's why it goes junior on the DAL seniority list.

Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

Yawn, my point is proven yet again. You guys never will wise up, neither will your lawyer. The only question is will you continue holding your breath if you lose?

That lawyer, who many NWA guys were less than fond of, made your expert witnesses/pilots look really silly on the stand. They couldn't even begin to defend your indefensible position.

Schwanker

 

[Noserider76]

That lawyer, who many NWA guys were less than fond of, made your expert witnesses/pilots look really silly on the stand. They couldn't even begin to defend your indefensible position.

Schwanker

Hmmm. Read all the transcripts thoroughly and never saw that part.

Brings up the question though, did we think the US Airways/AWA integration (or lack of) went so well that we had to hire the same lawyers or did one party hire one first and the other felt compelled to respond? Old Mr Katz does seem like a one trick pony.

 

[General Lee]

I guess you could lump them into 3 categories then:

NWA's 60+ 747's/330s with DAL's 10 777s.

75/76 Class aircraft (large NB/tiny old WB)

737/A320/DC-9/MD-80

Combine those groupings with a dynamic list to consider respective retirements and you're getting closer. Without dynamic, this would be a huge windfall for the DAL side as DAL has very little premium widebody flying as they only have 10 777s-that's it!

Schwanker

Ooops, you forgot some. First, the 767-400 is equal to your A330, and your 742s are on the way out. And, the 767-300s (which are also counted as "widebodies" at UAL, AAL, and bigger than CAL's 767-200s and USAir's 767-200s) cannot be missed, and will take over your Asia flying soon from a new SEA base while those SEA A330s go East to JFK. Can you recaluculate, please? Get rid of the 742s and some of the DC9s while you are at it. Also, add a bunch more 777s that are coming, while your 787s are not.(along with fences) And the DC9 should be in a category all by itself, since it will leave the fleet before the MD88, which is a lot larger anyway. That is the way the arbitrator panel will see it, and that is the way it was done with our joint contract pay wise.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

That lawyer, who many NWA guys were less than fond of, made your expert witnesses/pilots look really silly on the stand. They couldn't even begin to defend your indefensible position.

Schwanker

You mean like the Nicelau award? That was recent, right? Yeah.....I think it was..... Relative seniority with some positioning for "special items" (USAir had INTL flying that AWA did not, and NWA has planes going away, which DL does not....hmmm). Yeah, I think our propsal has merrit... Oh wait, DOH does.....riiight.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Scope-that's why it goes junior on the DAL seniority list.

Schwanker

Wait, I am probably senior to you, (or will be), and I fly the INTL widebody. That probably is because it is GREAT FLYING, and we have a lot of it to spread around. There are junior portions to all flying, if there is enough of it. You guys don't have as much, and therefore guys will even commute to DTW to do it. Same with us, except it happens to be NYC. The top half or better in NYC is senior, though. Great trips, overall.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

That lawyer, who many NWA guys were less than fond of, made your expert witnesses/pilots look really silly on the stand. They couldn't even begin to defend your indefensible position.

Schwanker

More evidence. He made a fool of himself. Trying to equate age to seniority? Puleeaasssee. trying to bring up topics which are not allowed per agreement between the sides? Classy. Makes me wonder what other agreements the NWA side is going to break. Methinks something is starting to smell like USAir/AWA. Tiny problem though, you guys are NOT in the majority.

This is going to go bad quickly for the NW pilots, who cannot even keep their committees together.

 

[General Lee]

More evidence. He made a fool of himself. Trying to equate age to seniority? Puleeaasssee. trying to bring up topics which are not allowed per agreement between the sides? Classy. Makes me wonder what other agreements the NWA side is going to break. Methinks something is starting to smell like USAir/AWA. Tiny problem though, you guys are NOT in the majority.

This is going to go bad quickly for the NW pilots, who cannot even keep their committees together.

I don't think pay rates are used in these talks? Or are they?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Read the side letter again. JPWA pay rates.

 

[Schwanker]

You mean like the Nicelau award? That was recent, right? Yeah.....I think it was..... Relative seniority with some positioning for "special items" (USAir had INTL flying that AWA did not, and NWA has planes going away, which DL does not....hmmm). Yeah, I think our propsal has merrit... Oh wait, DOH does.....riiight.



Bye Bye--General Lee

SS-
I know you elite DAL guys like to equate NWA to USAIR. In case you didn't realize it, NWA is in a stronger financial position than DAL. With until this quarters numbers come out.

I also like your mythical fleet expectations of each side, based on zero foundation. DAL had 10 777s with I believe ZERO firm orders (I could be wrong as I haven't looked it up to be sure-I'm sure you'll correct me) when this merger was announced. NWA is updating it's freighter fleet while you are convinced it's going away. There is no more credibility to that than your old 767 fleet and MDs going away, but yet you like to spew it as fact.

Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

I don't think pay rates are used in these talks? Or are they?


Bye Bye--General Lee

SS-
It really doesn't matter, the new rates have been negotiated. NWA gave up a lot for these new rates in an effort to have unity with the DAL side even though many on the DAL side attempted to leverage their position against the NWA side with LOA 19.

Why was it DAL ALPA requested to lower the rates on the A330? DALPA asked for lower rates, not management. Management gladly obliged. Why did DALPA insist on lower rates for an aircraft? I thought you'd prefer to see higher pay rates.