NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[Tantrum]

It seems from this side that many on the NW side want everything and want to give up nothing to get it. DL guys seem to realize that, even with the large hit they would take in a realtive seniority deal, compromise will be required in any merger. Not so sure now though as positions seem to be hardening here.

Just what are the DAL pilots giving up to make the deal happen ?

This is what Delta pilots feel they would give up if the SLI went according to DALs relative seniority proposal:

Right now, 24.3% of DAL planes are widebody, 30% are 757, and 45.7% are narrowbody (md88, 737).

NWA 17.7% are widebody, 20% 757, and 62.4% narrowbody (airbus, dc9).

So in total (including the 757 since it pays the same rate as the 767) DAL has 54.3% widebody paying aircraft while NWA has 37.6% widebody paying aircraft.

In addition, due to widebody's having higher staffing than narrowbody's, here are the current staffing numbers for DAL: 61% of our captains get widebody pay and 67% of our FOs get widebody pay. I don't know the exact NWA staffing ratios, but I will guess that about 40% of captains are getting widebody pay and 45% of FOs are getting widebody pay.

So let's compare a mid level captain at both companies. At DAL, that captain would be guaranteed a widebody captain position since 61% of our captains get widebody pay. At NWA that same relative seniority would not guarantee a widebody captain position since only 40% of the captains are making widebody pay.

Now let's say the companies merged. At that point, only 47% of the total aircraft would be widebody pay. So only about 53% of captains would receive widebody pay. If seniority is merged on a relative seniority basis, you can see that NWA makes out much better as only 40% of the captains used to make widebody pay, but now the top 53% will make widebody pay. Whereas at DAL the top 61% of captains make widebody pay but now only the top 53% would make widebody pay. This argument can be made on the FO side as well with NWA reaping the benfits of DALs higher percentage of widebody aircraft.

As you can see, DAL is actually giving up a lot with our relative seniority proposal.

By the way, these are the numbers as they stand today, not including deliveries since DAL and NWA both have several aircraft on order, they are basically a wash.

 

[PuffDriver]

It's actually very simple. The Delta pilots are giving up the majority of the "pilots-get-on-board" money offered by management. NWA keeps their pension, yet get brought up to Delta pay, work rules, vacation, etc. AND they also get equal equity. Despite the fact they bring a pittance of the widebodies to the game, and less narrowboies, they get a ratioed integration.

The choice is obvious with peak oil coming, the economy in the tubes, globalization the next step.

This deal IS coming with or without the pilots on board. If the choice is to leave it for now, it will come back WITHOUT the extra money and shoved in our face. Then, ALPA merger policy will kick in anyway, and the NWA pilots will get a ratio.

Might as well take the money too guys. There it is, simple, direct, to the point.

 

[Redmeat]

It's actually very simple. The Delta pilots are giving up the majority of the "pilots-get-on-board" money offered by management. NWA keeps their pension, yet get brought up to Delta pay, work rules, vacation, etc. AND they also get equal equity. Despite the fact they bring a pittance of the widebodies to the game, and less narrowboies, they get a ratioed integration.

The choice is obvious with peak oil coming, the economy in the tubes, globalization the next step.

This deal IS coming with or without the pilots on board. If the choice is to leave it for now, it will come back WITHOUT the extra money and shoved in our face. Then, ALPA merger policy will kick in anyway, and the NWA pilots will get a ratio.

Might as well take the money too guys. There it is, simple, direct, to the point.

There it is.

500 pages of meaningless drivel when the situation at hand can summed up perfectly with two sentences.

 

[Superpilot92]

There it is.

500 pages of meaningless drivel when the situation at hand can summed up perfectly with two sentences.

Agreed 100%

 

[~~~^~~~]

Wow... I agree with PuffDriver. Senior es muy correcto.

 

[DrewBlows]

Airplanes mean nothing without vacancies.

No one gains anything from a merged fleet without vacancies. If an NWA guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 757/767 on a combined list instead of an A320 on his current list is doesn't matter until there is a vacancy. The same holds true the other direction. If a DAL guy is given a seniority number that would allow him to hold 747 on a combined list instead of 757/767 (or even 777) on his current list he can't actually go to the 747 until there is a vacancy.

NWA guys obviously think they bring more vacancies (retirements) to the table. With a ratio integration, half of all vacancies will be filled by each companies pilots. Is that fair if 60% of vacancies are brought by NWA pilots (retiring or otherwise)? 70%? 80%?

What's fair?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Drew,

Guess you have missed the posts about Delta's advance entitlements. In the last six months there have been three. The last had more than 500 openings with more than 100 Captain slots, most of those were widebodies.

I do not know why NWA pilots think the DAL list is stagnant when Delta is running classes of 50 new hires every two weeks and still short on pilots.

Others have posted the staffing requirements for the 777-200LR's, I think was 30 pilots per jet. That 30 is multiplied down the list in the 765, 767ER, 767, 737, MD88 categories. The result will be probably thousands of "openings" and the smallest Delta jet is bigger than a A319, or DC9.

Further, "word" is that there are going to be more 777's ordered.

Then when the retirements start, there is only a three to five year lag before the total number of Delta retirements exceeds the NWA retirements by a large number.

Then you can add to those openings some folks who just will not commute to a DC9 gig up north. Delta hires a high percentage of MBA types who have better options than sitting #11,000 in KMSP. Many of those new hires are on the 767 & ER. Probably only a handful would leave, but it is more than NWA is going to retire in the next three years.

The crystal ball can be clouded by all of these X factors. I think Delta brings much more to the table, the NWA guys think their 1,000 retirements are the ace in the hole. Really this is just "noise" since none of us can bank on the future in this business right now. The big picture items we have to look at (and I'm guessing you are a new hire)

• Can the new airline compete better in a world of wholesale jet A at $3.00+
• Can the new airline grow
• What are your career expectations and do your expectations increase or decrease
• Would the combined airline rationalize feeder flying in such a way to put more 100+ seat jets in the market? (This open item is probably your upgrade - not the widebody furball)

 

[nwaredtail]

So in total (including the 757 since it pays the same rate as the 767) DAL has 54.3% widebody paying aircraft while NWA has 37.6% widebody paying aircraft.

Really? I believe the 767's, except for the 767-400 ,are paid the same as your 757. So only 6% are widebody paying aircraft. We have a ton more widebody paying positions, which we will get credit for.

In addition, due to widebody's having higher staffing than narrowbody's, here are the current staffing numbers for DAL: 61% of our captains get widebody pay and 67% of our FOs get widebody pay.

Wrong again, only pilots flying the 777 & 767-400ER get widebody pay. At NWA, pilots flying the 747-400, 747-200, A330-200,A330-300 get widebody pay.

As you can see, DAL is actually giving up a lot with our relative seniority proposal.

I agree Delta pilots will have to give up a lot to merge with the lowest cost, lowest debt, highest margin and most profitable legacy carrier out there. Finally, we all agree on something.

By the way, these are the numbers as they stand today, not including deliveries since DAL and NWA both have several aircraft on order, they are basically a wash.[/QUOTE]

You need to give Lee Moak a call and tell him that!

 

[Tantrum]

Am I missing something....when did a 767 become a narrowbody aircraft? You do realize that our 757/767 rate is almost identical to your A330 rate right? So I guess that means you only have 31 747s and we only have 30 777/767-400 since everything else is a narrowbody. Give me a frickin break. Whatever, I don't care...it's pointless to argue on here anyway.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I believe the 767's, except for the 767-400 ,are paid the same as your 757. So only 6% are widebody paying aircraft. We have a ton more widebody paying positions, which we will get credit for.

Wrong again, only pilots flying the 777 & 767-400ER get widebody pay. At NWA, pilots flying the 747-400, 747-200, A330-200,A330-300 get widebody pay.

12 YR Rates

DAL 757 $160 CA / $109 FO
NWA A330 $162 CA / $110 FO

Now lets compare "narrow body"
DAL 737 $154 CA / $105 FO
NWA 757 $144 CA / $98 FO
DAL MD88 $142 CA / $97 FO

Delta's wide body 757 rates are documented above from the airline pilot central board. DAL's guppy pays more than your 757.

The facts indicate that Delta's 757's are paid at widebody rates and that NWA would have to be brought up to Delta's standard. The MD88 at Delta pays within two dollars of your 757's and that's Delta's smallest jet.

We have a ton more widebody paying positions, which we will get credit for.

What does this mean? Credit with who? Is this a position for arbitration?

By paycheck and equipment type the NWA pilots would not do as well as the relative seniority already offered. I'm surprised they want arbitration....