NWA/DAL Arbitration hearing

[Cobraair75drvr]

Whats his name?

Not the Fed in ATL I am married to eh!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Yeah, we had a whole different manual set a few years ago. While there are some elements of the Boeing books that I like, overall I think I liked the older DAL manuals better. I wish we would go to the NWA books, though I suspect it will be Boeing (Airbus).

Yeah unfortunately the decision has already been made. The NWA guys are gonna get a series of revisions over the next year converting them to our system.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yep, we are going the Delta way. Plane, Path, Pilot.

 

[Fly4hire]

Can you guys get all your manuals in PDF format from your Flight Ops web site? We have the option of electronic versions for all our aircraft operating manuals (still have to have paper in the flight deck). Revision = download the latest version. I suppose at DAL you have to pick the cotton to make the paper to print your own....

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

everything is available pdf on the website.

 

[800Dog]

Whats his name?

Its name is Pat!

 

[Fly4hire]

everything is available pdf on the website.

Thanks! Do they allow PDF in lieu of paper docs for required issue (except required flight deck manuals)?

 

[General Lee]

Heyas Cobra,

Right you are. RA's problem is that, barring some kind of novel mechanism, there ARE going to be some kind of fences, and by the looks of direction that the arbitration is going, fairly tall ones.

This is exactly what he didn't want. Mind you, the arbitrators are under ZERO obligation to the company, only to the parties directly involved, and they have said that their goal will be to find the solutions that the most people will find acceptable.

What RA does with this is anyone's guess. He can nuke the whole thing, saying it "costs too much", but that treds into unchartered legal waters not to mention throwing a carefully crafted deal into chaos. He can park aircraft that are fenced, but that only raises the "replacement aircraft" spectre, with subsequent arbitrations (this gets expensive for the company REAL quick).

I will grant that the mechanics of a dynamic list is full of details. But we have smart guys working on the problem, and they can be ironed out with a solid methodology. Once that is done, the boils down to pressing a button once, twice or 12 times a year to produce a list. With DALs "once a year" AE system, it should hardly be time consuming.

Nu

Your A320 FO on the stand was "blown away" by our lawyer, finally admitting that attrition has NEVER been a part of ANY seniority list integration, ever. He told him to stop making speeches, and just answer the question. Classic. Dynamic lists just don't work, and we have more retirements eventually than you do.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Thanks! Do they allow PDF in lieu of paper docs for required issue (except required flight deck manuals)?

No one ever really mentions that.. the FO only has to carry the OM1 (your equivalent of sopa/smac plus supplementals), and the CA only has to carry the FOM.

I think everyone keeps up their paper manuals though. The only version of the PWA that I carry is on my computer.

 

[jonjuan]

Your A320 FO on the stand was "blown away" by our lawyer, finally admitting that attrition has NEVER been a part of ANY seniority list integration, ever.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Not to mention that with the recent loss of $30 trilion in wealth with the stock market equity drop, you can bet that the majority of those who were planning to retire at 60 will now keep flying.

 

[JohnQ]

Thanks! Do they allow PDF in lieu of paper docs for required issue (except required flight deck manuals)?

We are all issued the following (pardon me if some of this is common knowledge):

- FOM: Flight Operations Manual: all fleet common DAL policies and procedures. Captain is required to carry, F/O is not.
- Vol 1: Operations Manual, Vol 1, which is all the normal and supplementary checklists. All pilots carry.
- Vol 2: Systems Book. No one must carry (but must be in paper form in the cockpit). You are also supposed to take it with you to recurrent, but I have never seen anyone do it.
- FCTM: Flight Crew Training Manual. This is the manual fully describing lots of different maneuvers, both normal and "non-normal." This is not required to be carried by any crewmember, nor is it required in the cockpit. You are required to take it to training--again, not everyone does.
- Jepp charts and approach plates. Paper form in your flight kit, required for all pilots except the "B" captain on 4-pilot crews (most 777 flying, for example).

So where do all our non-normal/abnormal checklists come from? From the QRH--Quick Reference Handbook, two copies of which are kept in every DAL aircraft. Whenever you have a non-normal, you comply with the boldface (if any) then break out the QRH and follow the procedure. I love the idea in theory. And for the most part it works pretty well. However, sometimes I feel the QRH is written for the lowest common denominator--like a 3rd world pilot who barely speaks English...hey, I think that is exactly who it is written for!

ALL the above are available in .pdf format from the Flt Ops website. However, that fact does not alter any required-to-carry policy as spelled out in the FOM.

 

[patrickdc9]

Your A320 FO on the stand was "blown away" by our lawyer, finally admitting that attrition has NEVER been a part of ANY seniority list integration, ever. He told him to stop making speeches, and just answer the question. Classic. Dynamic lists just don't work, and we have more retirements eventually than you do.

Bye Bye--General Lee

It's a sad day when a fellow pilot gloats that one of "his" lawyers beat up another fellow, and future brother pilot.

General, you sir are a low-life.

 

[DTW320]

It's a sad day when a fellow pilot gloats that one of "his" lawyers beat up another fellow, and future brother pilot.

General, you sir are a low-life.

Not to mention that his claims are 100% USDA BullSh@t. Read the transcript of 10/24. NWA's G.A. absolutely mopped the floor with the DALPA lawyer. It made for great reading but you almost felt sorry for the lawyer....almost.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I even asked myself why he did not ask about your retirement historical data only being eight months old, and only using the time when you had a program in effect.

 

[Heavy Set]

Not to mention that his claims are 100% USDA BullSh@t. Read the transcript of 10/24. NWA's G.A. absolutely mopped the floor with the DALPA lawyer. It made for great reading but you almost felt sorry for the lawyer....almost.

I didn't read the transcripts, but did that FO say (as GenLEE states) that attrition has never been used in a merger of seniority lists? If so, that wouldn't be good for you guys I would think.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Not to mention that his claims are 100% USDA BullSh@t. Read the transcript of 10/24. NWA's G.A. absolutely mopped the floor with the DALPA lawyer. It made for great reading but you almost felt sorry for the lawyer....almost.

More spin by detoilet and the nw gang. Hey dtw, you should save some of that oil from the spin machine. You'll need it the way your side has been performing.
It wasn't nearly as entertaining as watching stevens get destroyed, and become basically confrontational! I started to feel sorry for him, then jus realized its another day in the life of the nw mec. I heard he had a talking with before he went back on the stand. Keep up the hits!:laugh:

 

[General Lee]

Not to mention that his claims are 100% USDA BullSh@t. Read the transcript of 10/24. NWA's G.A. absolutely mopped the floor with the DALPA lawyer. It made for great reading but you almost felt sorry for the lawyer....almost.

You must have been reading transcripts from your old Roberts award. I am pretty sure our lawyer on the 24th was slamming your computer guy with his outdated "model"---you know, the one that had the Jan 1st, 2008 fleet snapshot. The one with enough DC9 Captains for 94 DC9s (will you really have that many at DCC???), and 631 787 slots---for a plane that hasn't flown yet. Oh yeah, and you guys forgot about the 8 extra 777s we will be getting before the certificates are merged. Ooops. And I think that day we also slammed you on pay rates and overall pay, since you used 88 hours for your side, and then only gave us an "average" for our average line value of 79 hours. Hmmmm. Yeah, you sure did win that day.....? I think you have to go back to the USDA and get retested.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

It's a sad day when a fellow pilot gloats that one of "his" lawyers beat up another fellow, and future brother pilot.

General, you sir are a low-life.

Hey, your A320FO was grandstanding, and our lawyer wanted an answer. He eventually got the truth, though. Attrition has never been a part of any SLI.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[patrickdc9]

Hey, your A320FO was grandstanding, and our lawyer wanted an answer. He eventually got the truth, though. Attrition has never been a part of any SLI.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You're missing the point General. Putting the whole abitration thing aside for moment, which you and I have no control over, it's wrong for a pilot to be cheering on a lawyer against another brother pilot. It's fine for you to want the Delta pilots to come away from this thing with a fair, or even good deal, but don't rejoice in the perception that a lawyer "absolutely blew away" a NW first officer. Even if your opinion is true, remember that the first officer is a pilot first, and an expert witness second.

You obviously must be so removed from the pilot profession that you've forgotten that at the end of the day, we have to look out for one another.

When was the last time you flew? Are you a current pilot or a desk jockey? Just curious because you spend a lot of time on this board and you don't act like a professional pilot.

 

[skystud25]

You're missing the point General. Putting the whole abitration thing aside for moment, which you and I have no control over, it's wrong for a pilot to be cheering on a lawyer against another brother pilot. It's fine for you to want the Delta pilots to come away from this thing with a fair, or even good deal, but don't rejoice in the perception that a lawyer "absolutely blew away" a NW first officer. Even if your opinion is true, remember that the first officer is a pilot first, and an expert witness second.

You obviously must be so removed from the pilot profession that you've forgotten that at the end of the day, we have to look out for one another.

When was the last time you flew? Are you a current pilot or a desk jockey? Just curious because you spend a lot of time on this board and you don't act like a professional pilot.

Please spare us all this "brotherly" crap. Both sides are fighting for their interpretation of what is fair, and no person, pilot or not, has any entitlement to being treated in a brotherly fashion if they've been brought to the fight with the sole purpose of misrepresenting facts. There isn't a pilot on either side that wouldn't admit, to a man, that they hoped "their" lawyer smacked around whoever was on that stand from the other side.

FWIW, the General is an active line pilot.

2K hours? Must be a tacair bubba.

 

[DTW320]

2K hours? Must be a tacair bubba.

5K hours?That's funny. You're kidding right? I had 50% more than that when I got hired at NWA a long time ago.

 

[skystud25]

5K hours?That's funny. You're kidding right? I had 50% more than that when I got hired at NWA a long time ago.

Just trying to remind my new brotherly friend that he may want to update that. Not uncommon for tacair guys and gals to get on with a Major with that little time, but you don't see it that often otherwise.

So you had 50% more when you got hired on a long time ago. That's great. But let's not let this deteriorate into a mil/civ. discussion. I'm sure we both know a lot of bad pilots with 12k hours, most of which was accumulated on an autopilot, flying the airways, or sitting in the penalry box at O'Hare. Maybe you're one of them? ;-)

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I have flown with CA's here that have less than 9K hrs. Time means nothing after the first two thousand.

 

[AirportBum]

I have flown with CA's here that have less than 9K hrs. Time means nothing after the first two thousand.

I'll second that. It's all about working as little as possible (while still getting paid.)

Here's to hoping my logbook is always thinner than the next guy

 

[General Lee]

You're missing the point General. Putting the whole abitration thing aside for moment, which you and I have no control over, it's wrong for a pilot to be cheering on a lawyer against another brother pilot. It's fine for you to want the Delta pilots to come away from this thing with a fair, or even good deal, but don't rejoice in the perception that a lawyer "absolutely blew away" a NW first officer. Even if your opinion is true, remember that the first officer is a pilot first, and an expert witness second.

You obviously must be so removed from the pilot profession that you've forgotten that at the end of the day, we have to look out for one another.

When was the last time you flew? Are you a current pilot or a desk jockey? Just curious because you spend a lot of time on this board and you don't act like a professional pilot.

Come on Pat. I fly 4 3 day Europe trips a month, or 3 Europes and 1 South America. I do bring my laptop, so I am still "connected." We have to get this SLI done fairly, and then move on. I have always stated that too, consistantly telling everyone on here I can't wait to buy the beer (3rd and 5th rounds only please). But, when DTW320 berates me and tells me I am full of doo doo, and then I remind him what ACTUALLY was stated on the stand from the transcripts, I tend to get a little heated. In the end, we will all look like Russian Sub Commanders, and we will look FANTASTIC. But, that SLI is very important, and needs to be done fairly.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[patrickdc9]

Come on Pat. I fly 4 3 day Europe trips a month, or 3 Europes and 1 South America. I do bring my laptop, so I am still "connected." We have to get this SLI done fairly, and then move on. I have always stated that too, consistantly telling everyone on here I can't wait to buy the beer (3rd and 5th rounds only please). But, when DTW320 berates me and tells me I am full of doo doo, and then I remind him what ACTUALLY was stated on the stand from the transcripts, I tend to get a little heated. In the end, we will all look like Russian Sub Commanders, and we will look FANTASTIC. But, that SLI is very important, and needs to be done fairly.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I'll tell you what, you can buy all the beers because I'll be junior to just about everyone when this deal is done.

 

[General Lee]

I'll tell you what, you can buy all the beers because I'll be junior to just about everyone when this deal is done.

How about the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th rounds, plus Wings (before 5pm)? Deal?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

Time means nothing after the first two thousand.

It meant a lot in the interview/selection process. Number of type ratings did too.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Not really. 500 PIC turbine is nice but total time over 2K is icing on the cake.
DAL wanted to see at least 2K

 

[DTW320]

Not really. 500 PIC turbine is nice but total time over 2K is icing on the cake.
DAL wanted to see at least 2K

Yes, Really. At NWA you could almost predict the week you would get called in for your phase 1 interview by comparing your total time/type ratings to that of recent successful candidates. It was very linear. I agree that it is not a measure of "how good a pilot" you are beyond the first few thousand hours, but, at least at NWA, it made a major difference in getting the job offer, which was my point earlier . I am over 1000 numbers senior to several Captains at my former airline who were very senior to me at that airline simply because I had an extra type rating and got the call 2 years earlier.