NWA/DAL Arbitration hearing

jetflier

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After finishing day three of the NWA Arbitration presentation the feeling is that we are getting closer to a negotiated settlement.
The following is a compiled observation edited to keep it simple:


"I along w/10-20 NWA pilots observed today's arbitration
proceedings. Not a single pilot from DAL was there. Lee
Moak was in the audience & that was it other than their
Merger Committee.

I am going to summarize what happened today--it was
EVENTFUL. Be forgiving of my spelling mistakes, etc.

First, some personal observations: anyone who thinks Our MEC
or any pilot or staffer associated w/the Seniority
Arbitration might be trying to sell out the Junior NWA
pilots is just wrong. If you believe that, you need to find
time to attend a session. You will witness 1st hand the
time, effort, preparation, & professionalism of ALL
involved. 3 of our witnesses who testified today were a
747-400 Captain & 2 A330 Captains. They weren't doing this
for themselves. As senior WB Captains, they are pretty
secure. Instead, they were sacrificing their personal time
for the ENTIRE pilot group in general & for the junior
pilots in particular.

The specifics:

1)The day started w/A320 F/O Merger Committee Member
being cross examined. Not only did he hold up well,
but he got under the skin of the DAL lawyer enough that the
lawyer was not only rude to him, but to most of the
witnesses today. It was apparent, their lawyer was a jerk.
Great job describing how a pay was temporary, but
seniority was forever.

2)The second witness was the cross examination of Dr
C, our economist. He literally kicked butt...again.
Not only did he answer everything, but he corrected the DAL
lawyers at times, he did not give an inch & he knew his
stuff. At one point, the DAL lawyer was trying to downplay
the value of our operations in Asia & Dr reiterated
the price UAL paid for Pan Am's Pacific operation in the
'80s--close to $885M I think, then stated how the rest of
the industry thought UAL got a screaming deal. The DAL
lawyer just had his jaw drop & didn't know how to respond.
The peanut gallery (us pilots) definitely noticed & we
quietly laughed at the exchange.

3)Merger Committee Member was next & gave a
great summary & presentation of our proposed list. It was
an "improved" Robert's Award. Date of Hire w/restrictions &
protections. He gave the broad brush & of the list & then
details of why it was fair--compared seniorities on planes
from WB Capt, WB F/O, NB Capt, & NB F/O. Cross was saved
until later...

4)Our former negot chmn gave a rundown comparison on the contracts
pre-merger & post merger. He was extremely effective in
tearing down DAL ALPA's argument that this was a financial
windfall for the NWA pilots & we should be willing to trade
money for our seniority. Much of DAL's bravado had been
about the higher hourly rates. Bill not only demonstrated
hourly rate isn't everything, but said that DAL never would
have even gotten LOA 19 improvements had it not been for NWA
pilots & the outlook of a merger. NWA was bringing
something to the party, both groups were benefiting, &
hourly pay rates aren't all that make a W-2. Cross withheld
& DAL lawyer said lots of nasty things in his comments.

5)G--the coup de gras--THIS WAS AMAZING TO WATCH.
Gr took the DAL proposal, & tore it apart piece by piece.
Every condition DAL had, he systematically & convincingly
demonstrated it was designed to benefit DAL at the detriment
of NWA Pilots. For example, DAL had no real plans for
sharing growth. They also wanted their 777 on order to be
considered as theirs while our 787s (on firm order in 2005)
would be new flying to be "shared" between pilot groups.
They had no plan for replacement aircraft. G eloquently
spoke of the earlier video showing how the DAL plan allowed
them to take advantage of all our retirements as well as
theirs. The video was shown at the beginning of the day to
demonstrate how much more attrition we have than DAL has in
the future.

If you haven't heard, our List as presented was similar to
the Robert's Award w/a 10 year fence after SOC based on
staffing & planes on order.

The DAL case was based on our two companies not being equal.
If you have read the transcripts of the DAL witnesses, one
would have to wonder why DAL Mgmt would ever want NWA as a
partner. Our case was based on the two companies being
equals. Not like DAL & Pan Am, not like AMR & TWA, not like
American West & US Air, etc.

Afterwards, at the end of the hearing the Chmn said that a negot settlement would be in the best intrest of both groups and THEY WERE TREATING THIS
ARBITRATION AS ONE OF EQUAL COMPANIES.

This may seem unimportant/obvious, but this is/was the heart
of the DAL ALPA case & IMO, a shot across their bow. He
then said he would allow the finish of cross examination
tomorrow (Friday), but he expected the two sides to reenter
negotiations & they would be available to mediate if
requested.

All of the men & women (pilots, lawyers, actuaries, staff,
etc) supporting NWA ALPA have done an amazing job. The real
work may just be getting started, but I am very proud & feel
relieved that they are representing me & all NWA pilots."
 

Voice Of Reason

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I must say, as interesting as the whole DL/NW saga is to read about, I can't help but wonder of your unions neglected to warn you against message board postings which may (likely) serve to hurt your own side in the long run. Poker face should be key. I would rethink such postings in your own best interest.

(I'm also not sure why you NW guys would even be willing to negotiate...seems from what has been posted here anyway, that you can ONLY come out ahead in any arbitration)
 
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ACL65PILOT

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No, it is an open arbitration. Only people that cannot be there are reporters. No one is barred from talking about it. There is no legal ramifications for doing so.

Yes, This was a shot across the bow to both of us. We are equals, the difference is what positions (seats and quantity and quality of those seats) we bring to the table. As the say the devil is in the details.
 

On Your Six

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Were NWA and Republic equals? How did that end up?
 

Voice Of Reason

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No, it is an open arbitration. Only people that cannot be there are reporters. No one is barred from talking about it. There is no legal ramifications for doing so.
My point has nothing to do with "legalities."
Pilots ACTING as reporters by posting such an analysis of how things seem to be going ARE in fact only hurting their own side. As much as everyone wants to know what is going on (more than what can be found from simply reading transcripts...BTW, are those PUBLIC or just accessed from union boards?), it is in both sides best interests to let their people do their jobs at this point and keep such things off PUBLIC message boards.
As a DL NEW HIRE ACL65PILOT, we are all aware you have much at stake, but jumping on every single related post (on this board, AirlinePilotCentral, and who knows where else) 24/7 as if you have connections on the inside of DL's big picture, is not at all helping your cause. You're making GeneralLee seem like a generally absentee poster.
 
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WSurf

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I guess the saying is right, "the only good merger is when both sides are pissed at the outcome".
 

ACL65PILOT

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If you have noticed I have not been posting.
I actually have less to loose than people senior to me. I will fair better from this merger than with out it. No matter how this list goes. I like everyone has an opinion and if you do not want to read it, block me.
I do not have an issue with his opinions. That is the thrust of this board. I can disagree with him though.
 

SpauldingSmails

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Warning!

If you have noticed I have not been posting.
I actually have less to loose than people senior to me.

Okay, I normally don't do this... but I can't take it anymore. The word is lose, okay? How come no one can figure this word out? Nothing personal here.

Loose = not tight.
Lose = not win.
 

Voice Of Reason

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Okay, I normally don't do this... but I can't take it anymore. The word is lose, okay? How come no one can figure this word out? Nothing personal here.

Loose = not tight.
Lose = not win.
It bugs me too....
Equally prevalent is the misspelling of advice as advise. You ask for advice, you advise someone what is in their best interests.
Got that out. Whew! :beer:
 

TWA Dude

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Just something to be cautious of, and please don't intrepret this as an attack against any NW or DL guys.

Personal impressions of these hearings are subject to spin. Case in point: during the AWA/USAir arbitration hearings the USAir MEC posted daily "updates" stating how well their side was doing. According to them the arbitrator didn't believe the AWA witnesses, thought our lawyer was crazy, and was very sympathetic to USAir's story. Suffice it to say the USAirways pilots were presented with what they wanted to hear vice what they had to hear.

The only objective source are the transcripts. Are they being provided to both sides in a timely (within days) manner?
 

Muskycat

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Just something to be cautious of, and please don't intrepret this as an attack against any NW or DL guys.

Personal impressions of these hearings are subject to spin. Case in point: during the AWA/USAir arbitration hearings the USAir MEC posted daily "updates" stating how well their side was doing. According to them the arbitrator didn't believe the AWA witnesses, thought our lawyer was crazy, and was very sympathetic to USAir's story. Suffice it to say the USAirways pilots were presented with what they wanted to hear vice what they had to hear.

The only objective source are the transcripts. Are they being provided to both sides in a timely (within days) manner?
Yes they are provided in a timely manner. They're interesting to read, and I would say, yeah a little spinning is going on. But oh well, so be it.
 

Texx

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Afterwards, at the end of the hearing the Chmn said that a negot settlement would be in the best intrest of both groups and THEY WERE TREATING THIS
ARBITRATION AS ONE OF EQUAL COMPANIES.
IF this is what Bloch said, knowing Bloch, he is giving a very strong warning. Look at his past cases in airlines and pro sports.
 

dragon

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He said mostly the same thing at the opening of the case in CA. It is best for both to be able to negotiate a list rather than have one forced upon us.
 

MCDU

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With ALPA merger policy being so vague, a negotiated settlement between to parties is impossible.

M
 

JohnQ

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With ALPA merger policy being so vague, a negotiated settlement between to parties is impossible.

M
Unfortunately ALPA merger policy pretty much has to be vague. Every merger is a unique, standalone set of variables. You can't apply a strict, broad, policy to address every merger.

Of course the end result is the endless SLI process, which should have a decent outcome with DAL/NWA (due to the foresight to have the 3-person panel written into the process) and had a nightmarish one with AAA/AWA.

Maybe there can be a better formal ALPA policy. I am curious as to what it should be.
 

clippyrip

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......
Afterwards, at the end of the hearing the Chmn said that a negot settlement would be in the best intrest of both groups and THEY WERE TREATING THIS
ARBITRATION AS ONE OF EQUAL COMPANIES.
I don't know if this was a direct quote or spin but if it holds true, it is a huge warning shot.
 

Voice Of Reason

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I don't know if this was a direct quote or spin but if it holds true, it is a huge warning shot.
If that is the case, what benefit would there be to NW pilots to negotiate? Honestly curious...
Treating "as equals" seems to indicate DOH to me....
 

clippyrip

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Maybe or maybe not. I think it kind of indicates that a 500 pilot staple was a stretch even for an opener and the arbitrators did not find that very realistic. My 2 cents.
 
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clippyrip

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If that is the case, what benefit would there be to NW pilots to negotiate? Honestly curious...
You may be right, if the arbitrators kept giving indications that they were leaning towards one groups position, why would that group negotiate? Maybe we should just negotiate something out before it heads that way.
 
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