NWA/DAL Arbitration hearing

[NuGuy]

Again, didn't DL's beloved leader mandate NO fences, though?

Heyas VoR,

RA has limited authority in this case. NWAs position wouldn't prevent any awards from being fulfilled, nor cause a bump'n'flush.

The only thing he could hang his hat on would be the "expense" portion of the process agreeement, but it would go into rather precarious legal territory for management to refuse a binding arbitration award.

Rather, I COULD see RA to pony up some significant negotiating credit to make the issues "go away". I can't speak for the DAL side, but I'd don't think the NWA side would bite, since "pay is temporary, seniority is forever".

Just a hunch. This thing is far from over.

Nu

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Depends on who is on the new MEC. I am sure that it will be offered.

 

[Griswold]

Heyas VoR,

RA has limited authority in this case. NWAs position wouldn't prevent any awards from being fulfilled, nor cause a bump'n'flush.

The only thing he could hang his hat on would be the "expense" portion of the process agreeement, but it would go into rather precarious legal territory for management to refuse a binding arbitration award.

Rather, I COULD see RA to pony up some significant negotiating credit to make the issues "go away". I can't speak for the DAL side, but I'd don't think the NWA side would bite, since "pay is temporary, seniority is forever".

Just a hunch. This thing is far from over.

Nu

Pay is temporary, so you should get a big pay raise, keep your frozen pension, get work rules back (DAL work rules, which are better) and get a big break in seniority. WHO Aquired WHO! Don't forget we DAL guys will take a pay cut one day to pay for your frozen pension. Where else is it going to come from. HEYAS

 

[NuGuy]

Depends on who is on the new MEC. I am sure that it will be offered.

Heyas ACL,

Agreed.

I DON'T mean this as a dig, BUT, the DAL proposal gave away the ability for management to simply lift a fleet up and place it somewhere else without a re-bid.

This is something you make management pay for, and pay DEARLY. Hopefully some folks on the new MEC will recognize this.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

Pay is temporary, so you should get a big pay raise, keep your frozen pension, get work rules back (DAL work rules, which are better) and get a big break in seniority. WHO Aquired WHO! Don't forget we DAL guys will take a pay cut one day to pay for your frozen pension. Where else is it going to come from. HEYAS

Yawn. The nature of the transaction has been deemed to be irrelevant to the proceedings by both sides. Don't like it, talk to your rep.

NWA guys gave up as much as we gained. Check out the former NWA negotiator's testimony from yesterday. It's not all about W2. Besides, the DAL guys would never have seen LOA19 had it not been for the merger. Sure, you could have started section 6 sooner...right in the middle of a recession.

The funding for the pension is trivial, and the pension itself has been managed in an extremely conservative manner, with little exposure to the current meldown.

DOH with a fence keeps everyone where they are, lets them enjoy what they had coming. The demographics problem is solved after 10 years.

Nu

 

[p3flteng]

Spirit of compromise? You started to the far left, and we started fairly close to the middle. Is it greed when your side is losing aircraft or bringing less to the table? Your airline is parking DC9s (even if they keep some more than planned, they are still parking some), and the 742s are pretty much toast----those planes aren't good for cargo anymore (according to the guy who will be running them after the merger is done). We are adding planes, and not just 787s that haven't been flown ever.

I also will be happy to come to work, but being fair is about what is brought to the table. Really.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Relax there corporal,
I don't think stapling everyone at NWA hired after 2000 is starting in the middle, but like I said, I am OK with some seniority hit, just that POSITION is extreme. If you think that that is and should be the case well....I guess that is just your greed showing through. Either way you cannot take away what we bring to this merger, it is here and now that you need to live in, not the guess that is tomorrow. I believe the arbitrators will find some middle ground, hopefully you can ACCEPT it like the rest of us.

 

[DTW320]

So, what if the 787s don't get ordered after all, and the 747-200s go away as "planned?" What then? We get all of the 777s coming, right? They are on our certificate right now. What about the 25 MD90s coming from Saudia supposedly? They are going to MSP "supposedly." (I have to say that on here)

787's are already ordered. Show me the "plan" for -200's to go away. 25 MD90's? I just had a nice conversation the other day with one of your SLC MD90 Captains who said the whole rumour of getting more is pure BS. His words. He DID say that they are definitely hearing MSP for the ones that are already here.

 

[DTW320]

I don't think any of that is gonna float. You didn't use DOH with Republic, did you?Sure did. Every Greenbooker at NWA has their original DOH from Republic or earlier. No bump no flush.You had a 20 year fence, and still didn't do DOH.WRONG....See above. And, as our lawyer and your A320FO pointed out, attrition has NEVER been used in any merger case. How about relative seniority and then a 10 year fence. Sounds better, because in 10 years a lot of us will still be here, and DOH doesn't work. It never has in any ALPA merger---it has never been done. As our lawyer pointed out and your 747 Captain pointed out, you never have used it yourself, until you are the smaller entity.Smaller entity? Did you miss the part where Bloch said the arbitrators are considering this a MERGER of equals?

Bye Bye

 

[Soverytired]

It bugs me too....
Equally prevalent is the misspelling of advice as advise. You ask for advice, you advise someone what is in their best interests.
Got that out. Whew! :beer:

Plus:

"To" & "too" (you used it correctly, VoR).

"Affect" vs. "Effect"

Methinks we're seeing the Gen X, Y, and Z'ers getting into the workforce in large numbers. Just as my generation can't add (1st to use calculators like crazy), the up-and-comers can't use grammar (computers spell check for them, so they never learned multiple spellings for similar sounding words).


Kids today, I tell ya . . .

 

[General Lee]

Ummmm, the 787s are on firm order, and have been for a while. I haven't seen any press releases about more MD-90s..where do I look for those?

The NWA/Republic merger WAS DOH...and, gasp, was awarded BY the arbitrator.

The NWA position is basically was has been already awarded by previous arbitrations...DOH with a fence.

You guys have been screaming up and down for a fence, so you should be pretty happy about this.

Nu

There were No ratio's in the NWA/Republic merger? Are you sure about that? Really? There has NEVER been a DOH merger with the Alpa merger policy. Nope. Your 747 Captain was asked that on the stand, and couldn't come up with an answer. I think you have that wrong. And, a fence would be GREAT for us with Relative seniority. That would FORCE the Greenbooks to stay on your equipment, where they rightfully belong. With the new manning rules (2 Captains and 2 FOs for over 12 hours), your greenbooks will actually taxi the plane as the lead PIC, and the redbook that used to be the "only" captain with the 3 FOs, can watch. So, we should fence off the equipment for 5 or 10 years, and have at it. Also, you haven't been reading anything about Anderson being unhappy with the 787, and very likely switching the order to 777s? You haven't read that. I'll see if I can get the article for you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I don't think any of that is gonna float. You didn't use DOH with Republic, did you?Sure did. Every Greenbooker at NWA has their original DOH from Republic or earlier. No bump no flush.You had a 20 year fence, and still didn't do DOH.WRONG....See above. And, as our lawyer and your A320FO pointed out, attrition has NEVER been used in any merger case. How about relative seniority and then a 10 year fence. Sounds better, because in 10 years a lot of us will still be here, and DOH doesn't work. It never has in any ALPA merger---it has never been done. As our lawyer pointed out and your 747 Captain pointed out, you never have used it yourself, until you are the smaller entity.Smaller entity? Did you miss the part where Bloch said the arbitrators are considering this a MERGER of equals?
Bye Bye



Did we ever say we were NOT a merger of equals? You may have thought that, since you are smaller, have fewer employees, have less planes, and older planes, some of which are going away. Bloch wants us to negotiate this, and he said the same thing on the first day. That is why we came up with a seniority list that was "in the middle"---not a Staple job. If we thought you were inferior, we would have done something totally to the right, just like you did with your DOH B.S. that has NEVER happened in ALPA merger history. It was done with RATIOs, not DOH. Yes, the Republic guys kept their DOH, but they were slotted with ratios.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Relax there corporal,
I don't think stapling everyone at NWA hired after 2000 is starting in the middle, but like I said, I am OK with some seniority hit, just that POSITION is extreme. If you think that that is and should be the case well....I guess that is just your greed showing through. Either way you cannot take away what we bring to this merger, it is here and now that you need to live in, not the guess that is tomorrow. I believe the arbitrators will find some middle ground, hopefully you can ACCEPT it like the rest of us.

Relax, huh? Okay......Did the USAir East guys get close to DOH? No. They were given relative seniority, and if you were in the bottom 5%, you got the bottom 5% in the new company. That way, you stay at the same place you are---reserve, narrowbody, etc. Nobody really benefits, because you are at about the same spot as before. I am not taking away the fact that you have a great NRT hub, just like we are the largest carrier across the Atlantic. You have two great hubs with little LCC traffic (although, that is about to change at MSP with Southwest). We have the largest hub in the World in ATL, and twice the widebodies you do (unless you go Super Duper Premium...). You see? We both bring a lot, and what is truly fair is staying at about the same spot as before the merger. The reason for the bottom few hundred all NWA is because of the planes that are leaving the fleet. If we all kept the same planes and nothing changed, it would be easy. If someone is getting rid of planes (and we all know which ones), then that has to be taken into account.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

It was done with RATIOs, not DOH. Yes, the Republic guys kept their DOH, but they were slotted with ratios.

The Ratios you mention dealt with the awarding of vacancies.....Greenbooks were not ratioed onto the seniority list,they took their place on the list acording to DOH. You could look it up. We are not negotiating/arbitrating who gets to fly what...we are determining a seniority list.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Heyas VoR,

RA has limited authority in this case. NWAs position wouldn't prevent any awards from being fulfilled, nor cause a bump'n'flush.

The only thing he could hang his hat on would be the "expense" portion of the process agreeement, but it would go into rather precarious legal territory for management to refuse a binding arbitration award.

Rather, I COULD see RA to pony up some significant negotiating credit to make the issues "go away". I can't speak for the DAL side, but I'd don't think the NWA side would bite, since "pay is temporary, seniority is forever".

Just a hunch. This thing is far from over.

Nu

Just wondering....does DL have leases or payments on their MD80s? Since NW's DC9s are all paid in full, (and are rumored to be returning more back to service), what would happen WITH FENCES if say for example, DL decided to get rid of some or all of the MDs and say a furlough occurred as a result...
Would furloughs go by overall combined company seniority, or just furlough the bottom on the DL side?
Anderson seemed pretty darned adamant that there were to be "NO fences." I hope you all cross every t and dot every i...good luck.
PS-- Are they saying fences on ALL equip, or just for the SuperStudWideBody stuff? What would happen if there are openings on one side but cuts on the other...can they THEN go to the other side? Lots of things to ponder all around...

 

[NuGuy]

I If we thought you were inferior, we would have done something totally to the right, just like you did with your DOH B.S. that has NEVER happened in ALPA merger history. It was done with RATIOs, not DOH. Yes, the Republic guys kept their DOH, but they were slotted with ratios.

Absolutely incorrect. The NWA/Republic merger was DOH with conditions and restrictions (AKA a fence).

A certain number of positions for each seat were reserved for each side. When positions became available (new aircraft, retirements,etc), the only ratio involved was during awards for the vacant positions (pilots crossing the fence, which was permitted). If there were an insufficient number of bidders, it was pure DOH. Once those positions were awarded, the bid list for that equipment was DOH.

If you look at a NWA list now, it is all DOH. The few exceptions are those who were internal hires, but they are in the position that was their "DOH" as a pilot.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

Just wondering....does DL have leases or payments on their MD80s? Since NW's DC9s are all paid in full, (and are rumored to be returning more back to service), what would happen WITH FENCES if say for example, DL decided to get rid of some or all of the MDs and say a furlough occurred as a result...
Would furloughs go by overall combined company seniority, or just furlough the bottom on the DL side?
Anderson seemed pretty darned adamant that there were to be "NO fences." I hope you all cross every t and dot every i...good luck.
PS-- Are they saying fences on ALL equip, or just for the SuperStudWideBody stuff? What would happen if there are openings on one side but cuts on the other...can they THEN go to the other side? Lots of things to ponder all around...

Heyas VoR,


The fence from the "Robert's award" was leaky, but covered every position at the combined airline. By "leaky", I mean that a certain number of positions were reserved for EACH side of the list, even if that side didn't bring any of the positions into the merger.

The fence that part of the NWA request is far more restrictive than the Robert's award, which you would think would make the DAL guys super happy.

As for aircraft that are swapped out...that's where the "replacement aircraft" arbitration starts ....

Nu

 

[Voice Of Reason]

As for aircraft that are swapped out...that's where the "replacement aircraft" arbitration starts ....

Nu

What a nightmare...I would hope they have the foresight to hammer all that out now, as well as dealing with whatever Richard Anderson WILL do if he doesn't get his way about fences and the economics that result...

 

[General Lee]

NWA SLI proposal and ACORN? Similarities?

I just finished todays transcripts (10-24) and our lawyer was hammering you guys most of the time (just like your lawyer did to us yesterday). At the end of the transcript our lawyer kept asking one of your Captains about 787 and DC9 Captain vacancies. Your guy said the computer model included captain positions (315 or so on the 787, and a large amount (?) on the DC9) that will NOT be there on July 1st, 2009. It said there would be 315 Captains on the 787 at that time, and 94 total DC9s at that time too, with the associated Captains on them. Does that make any sense? The 787 hasn't flown yet, and he stated the snapshot was taken Jan 1st of 2008 for the DC9s, when in fact there was notice of a reduction (down to 63 DC9s?) on June 1st, of 2008. So, there were PHANTOM Captain bids thrown into the computer model, that WON'T BE THERE. Hmmmmm.

Also, today focused on pay rates and hours per month. NWA contends that they get paid more because they averaged 88 hours per pay period, whereas we have an ALV (Average line value) of 79 hours, even though pilots can pick up overtime etc. They just chose the 79 hours sine it was the Average, not the top of the scale, like the NWA pilots did (88 hours). Hmmmmmm. At least your guy did eventually state that if we put both pilots with the same amount of hours next to each other, we would be paid more. Gotta watch out for the windfall.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Old School]

When Richard Bloch said DAL and NWA are equal carriers, he was probably noting that DAL and NWA have identical market caps of 2.5B.

 

[RedRum]

The NWA DOH proposal is posted on the ALPA/ merger site. The difference for me (a near bottom NW guy) is about 400 numbers between the two proposals. I would prefer the DOH as it slides me in with the Delta guys who were hired the same time as last year, but in a spirit of compromise I would hope that we can come to some agreement and I end up no more than a hundred or so off the mark. I think thats a fair give and take. Anymore than that is just greed IMHO. I will however not hold any grudges and go happily to work...no matter what the outcome.

You have never been furloughed have you?

Try to think of both NWA and DAL guys that have been furloughed and have had to endure more than you have before you start throwing up the white flag.

I don't mean that to sound harsh. You just don't know how much sacrafice other pilots have made to get to where they are now. I know there is more at stake here, but you have to respect the seniority of any pilot that has been furloughed and understand that they can't easily compromise their seniority away like you can.

No flame.