NWA/DAL Arbitration hearing

[p3flteng]

RedRum, chill, It is not throwing up the white flag by saying I expect a minor seniority hit, that is my opinion. You do not know me and/or know what I did to get here, so until you have walked a mile in my shoes............... I do not think it is unreasonable to hope for a compromise and a negotiated solution, I have mentally prepared for a senority hit and this is exactly what DALPA has preposed, so anything better is a bonus, that doesn't mean I have to like it, I just have to live with it.

 

[jetflier]

Relax, huh? Okay......Did the USAir East guys get close to DOH? No. They were given relative seniority, and if you were in the bottom 5%, you got the bottom 5% in the new company. That way, you stay at the same place you are---reserve, narrowbody, etc. Nobody really benefits, because you are at about the same spot as before. I am not taking away the fact that you have a great NRT hub, just like we are the largest carrier across the Atlantic. You have two great hubs with little LCC traffic (although, that is about to change at MSP with Southwest). We have the largest hub in the World in ATL, and twice the widebodies you do (unless you go Super Duper Premium...). You see? We both bring a lot, and what is truly fair is staying at about the same spot as before the merger. The reason for the bottom few hundred all NWA is because of the planes that are leaving the fleet. If we all kept the same planes and nothing changed, it would be easy. If someone is getting rid of planes (and we all know which ones), then that has to be taken into account.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Gen

With all due respect, DAL is big in the Atlantic market from Pan Am, not from Delta. Delta snowballed PAA and assimilated the Atlantic operation while assigning the PAA pilots a seniority something like 1 for 11 until they got to zero and kept going so that Delta hired on top of the most junior PAA pilot. Certainly not fair or even remotely towards the middle as you suggested the kind DAL ALPA was/is.

We all know that PAA was smaller than DAL,...kind of leaves a bad taste in ones mouth.

NWA might be a little bit smaller, but NWA is financially stronger making more profit from every dollar spent. We'll show yalls how,...just watch...

 

[jetflier]

When Richard Bloch said DAL and NWA are equal carriers, he was probably noting that DAL and NWA have identical market caps of 2.5B.

But Delta is bigger...has more planes, goes to more places, more employees...

 

[General Lee]

Here is part of the "conditions and restrictions" of the NWA proposed list. There is something interesting to note: There are 631 spots "reserved" for NWA pilots on the 787s, and yet there are amazingly NO spots reserved for our FIRM orders of additional 777s, which we will actually get next year (July now--6-8 confirmed from Boeing). So let me get this straight. The 787 aint even flown yet, and may take YEARS to get. We are getting more 777s, and we don't get credit.......HMMMMMMM.

And, are there really 415 Captain slots for 41 DC9s? Ok, 63 DC9s? Which is it? I guess I should ask when was this created? Jan 1st of 2008 (like the computer model), or June 1st, 2008????


B-747 Captain: 327 positions to the former Northwest pilots
ii. B-777 Captain: 280 positions to the premerger Delta pilots
iii. B-787 Captain: 315 positions to the former Northwest pilots
iv. A-330 Captain: 354 positions to the former Northwest pilots
v. B-767-400 Captain: 193 positions to the premerger Delta pilots
vi. B-767/757 Captain: 1814 positions; 1357 positions to the premerger
Delta pilots and 457 positions to the former Northwest pilots.
vii. B-737 Captain: 566 positions to the premerger Delta pilots
viii. A-320/319 Captain: 732 positions to the former Northwest pilots
ix. MD-88 and MD-90 Captain: 706 positions to the premerger Delta
pilots
x. DC-9 Captain: 415 positions to the former Northwest pilots
xi. B-747 First Officer: 293 positions to the former Northwest pilots
xii. B-777 First Officer: 281 positions to the premerger Delta pilots
2
xiii. B-787 First Officer: 316 positions to the former Northwest pilots
xiv. A-330 First Officer: 329 positions to the former Northwest pilots
xv. B-767-400 First Officer: 271 positions to the premerger Delta pilots




Where did our EXTRA 777 slots go??? We are getting them on FIRM order..... just like those phantom 787s...Boeing said we will supposedly get them in July of 09 now---6-8 of them, at 38 pilots per plane. Do the math please and tell me why there aren't extra slots allocated for that?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Gen

With all due respect, DAL is big in the Atlantic market from Pan Am, not from Delta. Delta snowballed PAA and assimilated the Atlantic operation while assigning the PAA pilots a seniority something like 1 for 11 until they got to zero and kept going so that Delta hired on top of the most junior PAA pilot. Certainly not fair or even remotely towards the middle as you suggested the kind DAL ALPA was/is.

We all know that PAA was smaller than DAL,...kind of leaves a bad taste in ones mouth.

NWA might be a little bit smaller, but NWA is financially stronger making more profit from every dollar spent. We'll show yalls how,...just watch...

As far as what we did to the Pan Am pilots, well, it was a route aquistion and we bought some of their planes. We didn't merge totally with their company. It was an asset sale. We took some of their pilots along with them. Totally different than what is happening with us. I still fly with ex Pan Am pilots, and they are sort of bitter towards ALPA, but they say they can't really complain because a lot of them that stayed after the asset sales to DL and UAL lost their jobs eventually, and hit the street.

Also, did you know we now can overfly NRT? We do it everyday. We fly 777LRs to PVG and ICN. It will be nice to have your NRT hub, but not necessary to fly to Asia. A lot has changed since you started your NRT hub. The 777LR has changed the business, and the 787 will add to it, if we ever see them.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Both are nothing more than "Proposals" and from what the Panel said it doesnt look like either one will be used in its entirety. Just like the DAL side thought their side was "fair" our side thinks this is "fair". No point in getting worked up about it, it wont change anything.

At least in this way both sides get the benefit of the retirements. Whenever someone retires everyone moves up not just one side. Even though some NWA pilots that are more "senior" are above the senior DAL guys doesnt matter because both sides top positions are fenced ensuring that none of the senior guys at either side have to worry. By the time the fence goes down a large majority of the top of the list will be DAL pilots free to bid whatever they want.

Cheers :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

Here is part of the "conditions and restrictions" of the NWA proposed list. There is something interesting to note: There are 631 spots "reserved" for NWA pilots on the 787s, and yet there are amazingly NO spots reserved for our FIRM orders of additional 777s, which we will actually get next year (July now--6-8 confirmed from Boeing). So let me get this straight. The 787 aint even flown yet, and may take YEARS to get. We are getting more 777s, and we don't get credit.......HMMMMMMM.

And, are there really 415 Captain slots for 41 DC9s?ok, 63 DC9s? Which is it? I guess I should ask when was this created? Jan 1st of 2008 (like the computer model), or June 1st, 2008????


B-747 Captain: 327 positions to the former Northwest pilots
ii. B-777 Captain: 280 positions to the premerger Delta pilots
iii. B-787 Captain: 315 positions to the former Northwest pilots
iv. A-330 Captain: 354 positions to the former Northwest pilots
v. B-767-400 Captain: 193 positions to the premerger Delta pilots
vi. B-767/757 Captain: 1814 positions; 1357 positions to the premerger Delta pilots and 457 positions to the former Northwest pilots.
vii. B-737 Captain: 566 positions to the premerger Delta pilots
viii. A-320/319 Captain: 732 positions to the former Northwest pilots
ix. MD-88 and MD-90 Captain: 706 positions to the premerger Delta
pilots
x. DC-9 Captain: 415 positions to the former Northwest pilots
xi. B-747 First Officer: 293 positions to the former Northwest pilots
xii. B-777 First Officer: 281 positions to the premerger Delta pilots
2
xiii. B-787 First Officer: 316 positions to the former Northwest pilots
xiv. A-330 First Officer: 329 positions to the former Northwest pilots
xv. B-767-400 First Officer: 271 positions to the premerger Delta pilots




Where did our EXTRA 777 slots go??? We are getting them on FIRM order..... just like those phantom 787s...Boeing said we will supposedly get them in July of 09 now---6-8 of them, at 38 pilots per plane. Do the math please and tell me why there aren't extra slots allocated for that?


Bye Bye---General Lee

GL why didnt you post it all?

 

[General Lee]

Both are nothing more than "Proposals" and from what the Panel said it doesnt look like either one will be used in its entirety. Just like the DAL side thought their side was "fair" our side thinks this is "fair". No point in getting worked up about it, it wont change anything.

At least in this way both sides get the benefit of the retirements. Whenever someone retires everyone moves up not just one side. Even though some NWA pilots that are more "senior" are above the senior DAL guys doesnt matter because both sides top positions are fenced ensuring that none of the senior guys at either side have to worry. By the time the fence goes down a large majority of the top of the list will be DAL pilots free to bid whatever they want.

Cheers :beer:

But, the important part is whether it is relative seniority with fences, or DOH. The Panel HAD to say we need to work this out, because that is really how they want it. They said it in the beginning too. Relative seniority with fences sounds great to me.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

GL why didnt you post it all?

I said "here is part of the conditions and restrictions", and the rest can be posted by someone who wants to talk about the rest. I was focusing on the huge gap in your proposal, about the large amount of DC9 Captain positions (for 41 or 63 DC9s??), and the 631 787 slots that are mentioned, but lacking are the slots for the 777 that are firm orders and are coming. Any idea why they were left out? That seems pretty obvious.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

Where did our EXTRA 777 slots go??? We are getting them on FIRM order..... just like those phantom 787s...Boeing said we will supposedly get them in July of 09 now---6-8 of them, at 38 pilots per plane. Do the math please and tell me why there aren't extra slots allocated for that?

From the SLI Proposal:

"2. The date of constructive notice was April 14, 2008"

There's that pesky phrase. My guess is that your 777 orders were made after this date.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

From the SLI Proposal:

"2. The date of constructive notice was April 14, 2008"

There's that pesky phrase. My guess is that your 777 orders were made after this date.

Nu

Incorrect. We have had those orders for awhile, and they were scheduled for 4 early in 09 (one actually Dec 31st, 08---the other 3 all on March 1st), and then two more scheduled for later in the year. To have 4 come early in 09, we must have had the orders a long time before April of 08. So, where would they go under your proposal anyway? To the greenbooks? Riiiight. Not gonna fly. And what about the 415 DC9 Captain slots? For how many DC9s again? In that snapshot you had 94. You KNOW that we won't have 94 DC9s at Delta, right? How many are scheduled to leave now?



And, here is a seperate quote from Andyd, who stated this on a different thread that I found interesting:


"Just flew with a guy who attended the "in command" course last week and RA told his class that due to the economy/credit crises and uncertanties of the merger that hiring was off the plate for '09. Also said that 787's will never be on DAL property....fwiw"


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cobra17]

Incorrect. We have had those orders for awhile, and they were scheduled for 4 early in 09 (one actually Dec 31st, 08---the other 3 all on March 1st), and then two more scheduled for later in the year. To have 4 come early in 09, we must have had the orders a long time before April of 08. So, where would they go under your proposal anyway? To the greenbooks? Riiiight. Not gonna fly. And what about the 415 DC9 Captain slots? For how many DC9s again? In that snapshot you had 94. You KNOW that we won't have 94 DC9s at Delta, right? How many are scheduled to leave now?



And, here is a seperate quote from Andyd, who stated this on a different thread that I found interesting:


"Just flew with a guy who attended the "in command" course last week and RA told his class that due to the economy/credit crises and uncertanties of the merger that hiring was off the plate for '09. Also said that 787's will never be on DAL property....fwiw"


Bye Bye--General Lee

Bummer...sucks to be you.

 

[Fly4hire]

And, are there really 415 Captain slots for 41 DC9s? Ok, 63 DC9s? Which is it? I guess I should ask when was this created? Jan 1st of 2008 (like the computer model), or June 1st, 2008????

Bye Bye---General Lee

There are still ~92 DC-9's on the property as we speak, with plans for 64 by years end. Where the hell to you come up with 41?

Also persistent rumors of increasing the numbers of DC9's by up to 30 as fuel prices drop. The ones that are parked are in "hot" storage and can be back on line in very short order.

 

[jetflier]

There are still ~92 DC-9's on the property as we speak, with plans for 64 by years end. Where the hell to you come up with 41?

Also persistent rumors of increasing the numbers of DC9's by up to 30 as fuel prices drop. The ones that are parked are in "hot" storage and can be back on line in very short order.

I have heard the same, that 30 DC9's would be pulled from the desert.

As far as the statement about the 787 not being on the DAL property, ugh....general, you know better than to back up here-say.

I'll believe it when I see it on paper.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

"Just flew with a guy who attended the "in command" course last week and RA told his class that due to the economy/credit crises and uncertanties of the merger that hiring was off the plate for '09. Also said that 787's will never be on DAL property....fwiw"

This is why this SLI is so important. There will be furloughs. DAL has disproportionately exposed itself to the international market, gambing that this was the place to make money during a sluggish economy. A hedge, if you will. However, like most hedges, they can really bite you in the a$$ if you bet the wrong way. Apparently one of the "genius" managers the General trumpets here so often didn't count on a global slowdown - as if the rest of the world was insulated from US market conditions.

Look at the following article and notice 3 important things.

1. Africa traffic is getting hit hard (DAL expansion area)
2. Asia traffic is getting hit hard (NWA exposure)
3. North American traffic growing (DAL and NWA making large cutbacks)

DAL is making all the wrong moves. So much for the "managerial genius" of Dick Anderson.

__________________________________________________________________________



Passenger traffic drops worldwide for the first time since 2003
By TREBOR BANSTETTER
[email protected]


function PopupPic(sPicURL, sHeight, sWidth) { window.open( "http://media.star-telegram.com/popup.html?"+sPicURL, "", "resizable=1,HEIGHT=" +sHeight+ ",WIDTH=" +sWidth); } Passenger traffic on airlines worldwide shrunk last month, the first such decline in five years and another sign of the rapidly slowing economy.
Overall traffic dropped nearly 3 percent in September compared with a year earlier, according to the International Air Transport Association, an industry trade group. It was the first time traffic declined since the SARS outbreak in 2003, which resulted in greatly reduced travel to Asia.

"The deterioration in traffic is alarmingly fast-paced and widespread," said Giovanni Bisignani, chief executive of the Geneva-based group.
The largest drop came in Africa, where traffic fell nearly 8 percent. Traffic in North America declined by about 1 percent, according to the group.
The only region to see growth in September was Latin America, where traffic increased about 2 percent. But even that was well below the 12 percent growth in Latin American traffic in August.
Bisignani said the global airline industry could lose more than $5.2 billion this year, driven by high fuel prices during the first half of the year and the current slowdown in traffic.
"Even the good news that the oil price has fallen to half its July peak is not enough to offset the impact of the drop in demand," he said.
In North America, traffic had grown steadily at about 5 percent this year through August, according to the group. The month also saw a 3 percent decline among Middle Eastern airlines, which had enjoyed double-digit growth for several years.
The decline comes amid some optimism for U.S. carriers. Several analysts are predicting a profit for the industry next year despite the anticipated drop in traffic, largely due to falling fuel prices, higher fares and new passenger fees.
Airline shares dropped Friday amid the market sell-off. Fort Worth-based AMR Corp. (ticker: AMR), the parent company of American Airlines, fell 53 cents, or 5.7 percent, to close at $8.80 a share. Southwest Airlines (LUV), based in Dallas, fell 89 cents to close at $10.97, a 7.5 percent drop.

Traffic decline Airline passenger traffic slipped worldwide in September in every region except Latin America.

RegionTraffic growth (decline)Africa(7.8%)Asia(6.8%)Europe(0.5%)Latin America1.7%Middle East(2.8%)North America(0.9%)Worldwide(2.9%)Source: International Air Transport Association

 

[castle bravo]

"Try to think of both NWA and DAL guys that have been furloughed and have had to endure more than you have before you start throwing up the white flag."


Are the furloughed NWA people now going to be given longevity credit for time previously spent on furlough?

 

[800Dog]

This is why this SLI is so important. There will be furloughs. DAL has disproportionately exposed itself to the international market, gambing that this was the place to make money during a sluggish economy. A hedge, if you will. However, like most hedges, they can really bite you in the a$$ if you bet the wrong way. Apparently one of the "genius" managers the General trumpets here so often didn't count on a global slowdown - as if the rest of the world was insulated from US market conditions.

Look at the following article and notice 3 important things.

1. Africa traffic is getting hit hard (DAL expansion area)
2. Asia traffic is getting hit hard (NWA exposure)
3. North American traffic growing (DAL and NWA making large cutbacks)

DAL is making all the wrong moves. So much for the "managerial genius" of Dick Anderson.

__________________________________________________________________________



Passenger traffic drops worldwide for the first time since 2003
By TREBOR BANSTETTER
[email protected]


function PopupPic(sPicURL, sHeight, sWidth) { window.open( "http://media.star-telegram.com/popup.html?"+sPicURL, "", "resizable=1,HEIGHT=" +sHeight+ ",WIDTH=" +sWidth); } Passenger traffic on airlines worldwide shrunk last month, the first such decline in five years and another sign of the rapidly slowing economy.
Overall traffic dropped nearly 3 percent in September compared with a year earlier, according to the International Air Transport Association, an industry trade group. It was the first time traffic declined since the SARS outbreak in 2003, which resulted in greatly reduced travel to Asia.

"The deterioration in traffic is alarmingly fast-paced and widespread," said Giovanni Bisignani, chief executive of the Geneva-based group.
The largest drop came in Africa, where traffic fell nearly 8 percent. Traffic in North America declined by about 1 percent, according to the group.
The only region to see growth in September was Latin America, where traffic increased about 2 percent. But even that was well below the 12 percent growth in Latin American traffic in August.
Bisignani said the global airline industry could lose more than $5.2 billion this year, driven by high fuel prices during the first half of the year and the current slowdown in traffic.
"Even the good news that the oil price has fallen to half its July peak is not enough to offset the impact of the drop in demand," he said.
In North America, traffic had grown steadily at about 5 percent this year through August, according to the group. The month also saw a 3 percent decline among Middle Eastern airlines, which had enjoyed double-digit growth for several years.
The decline comes amid some optimism for U.S. carriers. Several analysts are predicting a profit for the industry next year despite the anticipated drop in traffic, largely due to falling fuel prices, higher fares and new passenger fees.
Airline shares dropped Friday amid the market sell-off. Fort Worth-based AMR Corp. (ticker: AMR), the parent company of American Airlines, fell 53 cents, or 5.7 percent, to close at $8.80 a share. Southwest Airlines (LUV), based in Dallas, fell 89 cents to close at $10.97, a 7.5 percent drop.

Traffic decline Airline passenger traffic slipped worldwide in September in every region except Latin America.

RegionTraffic growth (decline)Africa(7.8%)Asia(6.8%)Europe(0.5%)Latin America1.7%Middle East(2.8%)North America(0.9%)Worldwide(2.9%)Source: International Air Transport Association

Every market will be hit hard "genius". Considering there is less competition and higher revenues generated with these markets, it was and still is a good decision to fly to these destinations.

 

[castle bravo]

"DAL is making all the wrong moves. So much for the "managerial genius" of Dick Anderson."

__________________________________________________________________________



Frank,
This is shocking news. Since Anderson was a Continental Airlines staff attorney in the 1980's when YOU were there, one would be inclined to believe that much of your vast managerial prowess would have subsequently rubbed off on him, resulting in a manager who is wholly incapable of any shortcoming.

I guess if it doesn't work out for him at DAL there will always be a place waiting at your Savoy Capital Management, right? After all, you have aptly demonstrated the need for a qualified attorney over the years.

 

[Schwanker]

But, the important part is whether it is relative seniority with fences, or DOH. The Panel HAD to say we need to work this out, because that is really how they want it. They said it in the beginning too. Relative seniority with fences sounds great to me.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Not without a dynamic list to account for attrition. Again, this would be an absolute windfall for DALPA. If the DAL has the significant attrition you say it does, the dynamic concept shouldn't bother you.

Schwanker

 

[michael707767]

Not without a dynamic list to account for attrition. Again, this would be an absolute windfall for DALPA. If the DAL has the significant attrition you say it does, the dynamic concept shouldn't bother you.

whether we get a negotiated or arbitrated agreement, I highly doubt there will be any dynamic component to it.