NWA/DAL Arbitration hearing

[retired guy]

The plural of ya’ll is yens. As in yens are gonna learn to speak southern like or not.

You yankee boys need to learn to spell correctly...It`s Y`all, not ya`ll....
BTW, Y`all always means more than one person...a big bunch is "All Y`all"

 

[General Lee]

Odd...we heard that the MX management types mentioned that the 90s were going away. Something about there's no commonality with the rest of the fleet (like NWAs MD80 fleet), and that there are reasonably priced Airbus 320s that could be used to replace them.

Given a choice of adding a defunct airplane to an already small fleet (16), or adding more 320s to an already large fleet, I could see the -90s getting parked in exchange for some 320s, especiallly if Airbus is trying to get more 330 orders, which we all know RA loves.

But don't worry, I'm sure you can make some good points at the "replacement aircraft" arbitration.

Nu

No commonality? With NWA's MD80 fleet? Huh? What does your computer model say about it? I think it still thinks you have ex Republic MD80s, NWA 727s and DC10s, and that your SLI should show that. I am glad you can see the MD90s getting parked, when you just lost some A319s and 757s (some to Fedex). Did you see that coming? I thought you said the 757s were going to the desert and would come back in better times? And were the MX types you talked about the same guys that stated on the online deal that the 742s were going away? He said it, you know (TC are his initials). He will be incharge of MX after the merger, you know....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

I guess you think AWA was awarded an absolute windfall by Nicelau?

Bye Bye--General Lee

Just like everyone else. Why were the AWA guys so happy and the USAir guys so upset? I guess one side must have got a better deal. And not to mention, Easties may not even had jobs had it not been for this merger. This merger is of equals, more similar demographics and fleets. If Nicelau was a lopsided award in that case, it would be even worse in ours.

 

[Schwanker]

Exactly. After one list retires the other one kicks in. Do you want to see your guys stagnate as our guys move up. You cannot have it one way. It would have to work for both sides. Ala it ain't gonna happen as it is too complicated.

It's not that complicated. What it would do is allow NWA guys to advance with NWA attrition and DAL guys advance with DAL attrition. You don't like it as NWA has greater and sooner attrition than DAL.

 

[General Lee]

Just like everyone else. Why were the AWA guys so happy and the USAir guys so upset? I guess one side must have got a better deal. And not to mention, Easties may not even had jobs had it not been for this merger. This merger is of equals, more similar demographics and fleets. If Nicelau was a lopsided award in that case, it would be even worse in ours.

Yes, but the Easties got the top 500 spots, since they had something "different" they brought to the table. The only thing I see as "different" with us is the issue of planes coming or going into our combined fleet. All of that will be presented confidentially with our business plan I would assume. I thought it was fair, even with the top 500 going to Easties since they had something completely different than AWA. If you were in the bottom 25% of one of the seperate companies, you would end up close to the bottom 25% of the new company. Our list was essentially the same, except for the planes leaving the fleet were reflected in the bottom 400 pilots being all NWA.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

It's not that complicated. What it would do is allow NWA guys to advance with NWA attrition and DAL guys advance with DAL attrition. You don't like it as NWA has greater and sooner attrition than DAL.

Your A320FO on the stand a couple days ago admitted that attrition has NEVER been used in any airline seniority list integration. What you thought was "rude" questioning on the stand, actually brought out the correct answer.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

It's not that complicated. What it would do is allow NWA guys to advance with NWA attrition and DAL guys advance with DAL attrition. You don't like it as NWA has greater and sooner attrition than DAL.

I would have no problem with a dynamic list. You guys have more retirements short term, we have more long term. Between now and when I retire, Delta has far more retirements. I think a dynamic list would help me more than hurt me.

I just happen to think a dynamic list would be too hard to administer. I think there would be an argument on how much people move up, or some other problem like that, every time someone retired.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Like I said too complicated, and there is no way that a dynamic list could happen and be enforced for 40 years. (Career term of the youngest pilot)

 

[NuGuy]

Like I said too complicated, and there is no way that a dynamic list could happen and be enforced for 40 years. (Career term of the youngest pilot)

Hmmm, you guys HAVE heard of that new fashioned thingy called a "computer", right?

I'm very sure that a device that can track 12000 pilot's schedules and keep them legal can be "programmed" for such a task.

A complex task, to be sure. Hard? Not at all. Once the methodology is worked out, the bookkeeping is a piece of cake.

Nu

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It is not the computer that I would not trust, it is the process of doing such a thing.

 

[Heavy Set]

Hmmm, you guys HAVE heard of that new fashioned thingy called a "computer", right?

I'm very sure that a device that can track 12000 pilot's schedules and keep them legal can be "programmed" for such a task.

A complex task, to be sure. Hard? Not at all. Once the methodology is worked out, the bookkeeping is a piece of cake.

Nu

Can you give me an example of any merger that has had a dynamic list? I am not familiar with one. Someone also stated on here that attrition itself has also never been taken into account for a merger of lists.

 

[NuGuy]

Can you give me an example of any merger that has had a dynamic list? I am not familiar with one. Someone also stated on here that attrition itself has also never been taken into account for a merger of lists.

Before 1903, could you give me an example of a powered, heavier-than-air flying machine?

New mergers cover new ground. But I understand you DAL guys are scared of new things....gasp, imagine using manuals NOT written by Boeing and ACARS delivering your weight/performance data....oh, the horror...Grog not understand!

Nu

 

[DAL737FO]

Before 1903, could you give me an example of a powered, heavier-than-air flying machine?

New mergers cover new ground. But I understand you DAL guys are scared of new things....gasp, imagine using manuals NOT written by Boeing and ACARS delivering your weight/performance data....oh, the horror...Grog not understand!

Nu

Nu,

Get used to the Boeing manuals because that is what you are going to be using. ACARS weight and balance too. Is it true that you guys don't single engine taxi as a rule?

DAL737FO
flying 757/767

 

[jetflier]

Nu,

Get used to the Boeing manuals because that is what you are going to be using. ACARS weight and balance too. Is it true that you guys don't single engine taxi as a rule?

DAL737FO
flying 757/767

I heard that DAL previously used their own manuals and procedures for fleet standardization similar to NWA but then switched to the various manufacturers procedures.

Single engine taxi at NWA is at Capt discretion depending on weight and other factors, (snow,ice).
Most pilots do SE taxi when possible.

 

[Fly4hire]

Can you give me an example of any merger that has had a dynamic list? I am not familiar with one. Someone also stated on here that attrition itself has also never been taken into account for a merger of lists.

Can you give me an example of any previous merger of two airlines with two so similarly matched pilot groups and operations on the scale of NWA and DAL? According to arguments made, the Nicolau award granted WB positions in excess of those held by the USA pilots as a form of accounting for attrition.

Using examples of much more asymmetric pilot groups arbitrations as the precedent for this SLI is essentially a "land grab". As has been observed in the hearings regarding the DAL proposal "every condition...was designed to benefit DAL at the detriment of NWA Pilots"

Who knows what is in the mind of the arbitrators, but they don't appear to be biting, and hopefully productive negotiations are ensuing and we can get a realistic negotiated list. There are a lot of precedents in this merger - perhaps a negotiated list where one group does not feel thoroughly taken advantage of by the other might be one of them?

 

[DTW320]

Hmmm, you guys HAVE heard of that new fashioned thingy called a "computer", right?

They've heard of them.....they just can't use one for booking a jumpseat.....not many payphones at Hartsfield-Jackson anymore....there will be long lines at the few remaining to get that J/S to DTW & MSP after the 767's/MD90's get sent there. Maybe they've heard of cellphones...don't know.

 

[ExAF]

Don't Think So

Nu,

Get used to the Boeing manuals because that is what you are going to be using. ACARS weight and balance too. Is it true that you guys don't single engine taxi as a rule?

DAL737FO
flying 757/767

Those Boeing manuals aren't going to work too well for us Bus drivers. I bet DAL continues to use the NWA manuals for the foreseeable future.

 

[Sinca3]

It's not that complicated. What it would do is allow NWA guys to advance with NWA attrition and DAL guys advance with DAL attrition. You don't like it as NWA has greater and sooner attrition than DAL.

I agree that a dynamic list isn't going to happen. I have talked to the MEC and it is a nightmare to administer....eg,
Today a AE comes out and I am senior to you and before the close of the AE there are a # of retirements we now (due to the dynamic list) are in different seniority places and you are senior. Which number do you look at? The day the AE came out or the day it closes?
There are many different senarios just like this that make a dynamic list an impossibility.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Very simple. Go to our ape system. Monthly awards/displacements with an effective date 4 1/2 months out.

I agree that a dynamic list isn't going to happen. I have talked to the MEC and it is a nightmare to administer....eg,
Today a AE comes out and I am senior to you and before the close of the AE there are a # of retirements we now (due to the dynamic list) are in different seniority places and you are senior. Which number do you look at? The day the AE came out or the day it closes?
There are many different senarios just like this that make a dynamic list an impossibility.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Will not happen. DAL management will not agree to that system, that is why it was not adopted in the JPWA.

 

[FDJ2]

According to arguments made, the Nicolau award granted WB positions in excess of those held by the USA pilots as a form of accounting for attrition.

Nicolau awarded both the captain and first officer positions on the international 767/757/330 categories because AWA had no pre-merger expectation of those positions. This gave a certain number of AAA pilots who did not hold an international left seat the opportunity to bid it before the number one AWA pilot could.

 

[tblosser]

Those Boeing manuals aren't going to work too well for us Bus drivers. I bet DAL continues to use the NWA manuals for the foreseeable future.

[FONT=&quot]I would expect the airbus fleets will transition to airbus books soon. The legal department is the reason we changed to Boeing books from our own in house books[/FONT]

 

[tblosser]

You yankee boys need to learn to spell correctly...It`s Y`all, not ya`ll....
BTW, Y`all always means more than one person...a big bunch is "All Y`all"

[FONT=&quot]Yankee boy? Them is fightn' words. I bleed Carolina Blue.
[/FONT]

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

What is their aversion to it?? Seems to me that it makes for a smoother, more predictable way. Bwtfdik>

Will not happen. DAL management will not agree to that system, that is why it was not adopted in the JPWA.

 

[NuGuy]

What is their aversion to it?? Seems to me that it makes for a smoother, more predictable way. Bwtfdik>

Heyas Cobra,

Right you are. RA's problem is that, barring some kind of novel mechanism, there ARE going to be some kind of fences, and by the looks of direction that the arbitration is going, fairly tall ones.

This is exactly what he didn't want. Mind you, the arbitrators are under ZERO obligation to the company, only to the parties directly involved, and they have said that their goal will be to find the solutions that the most people will find acceptable.

What RA does with this is anyone's guess. He can nuke the whole thing, saying it "costs too much", but that treds into unchartered legal waters not to mention throwing a carefully crafted deal into chaos. He can park aircraft that are fenced, but that only raises the "replacement aircraft" spectre, with subsequent arbitrations (this gets expensive for the company REAL quick).

I will grant that the mechanics of a dynamic list is full of details. But we have smart guys working on the problem, and they can be ironed out with a solid methodology. Once that is done, the boils down to pressing a button once, twice or 12 times a year to produce a list. With DALs "once a year" AE system, it should hardly be time consuming.

Nu

 

[FBN0223]

Nu,

Get used to the Boeing manuals because that is what you are going to be using. ACARS weight and balance too. Is it true that you guys don't single engine taxi as a rule?

DAL737FO
flying 757/767

Wrong!!! The Feds in ATL and MSP are convinced NWA has the best manuals/procedures in the business. Get ready for some revisions Ya'll.

 

[800Dog]

Wrong!!! The Feds in ATL and MSP are convinced NWA has the best manuals/procedures in the business. Get ready for some revisions Ya'll.

Not the Fed in ATL I am married to eh!

 

[767/757]

Wrong!!! The Feds in ATL and MSP are convinced NWA has the best manuals/procedures in the business. Get ready for some revisions Ya'll.

You will see the new DAL go to the manufacturer's manuals only - it has to do liability not usability. DAL changed all fleets virtually overnight after the Swiss flt 111 crash of 1998.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Wrong!!! The Feds in ATL and MSP are convinced NWA has the best manuals/procedures in the business. Get ready for some revisions Ya'll.

Sorry man...DL manuals are what you guys are getting. I like the NWA manuals better than hours....its just we have the larger fleets and from a liability view manufacturer manuals are better.

I love the sopa/smac formats and such, personally. Apparently DL used to have something similar... but as has previously been stated they changed them.

 

[JohnQ]

Sorry man...DL manuals are what you guys are getting. I like the NWA manuals better than hours....its just we have the larger fleets and from a liability view manufacturer manuals are better.

I love the sopa/smac formats and such, personally. Apparently DL used to have something similar... but as has previously been stated they changed them.

Yeah, we had a whole different manual set a few years ago. While there are some elements of the Boeing books that I like, overall I think I liked the older DAL manuals better. I wish we would go to the NWA books, though I suspect it will be Boeing (Airbus).