NWA/DAL Arbitration hearing

[Heavy Set]

Hmmm, you guys HAVE heard of that new fashioned thingy called a "computer", right?

I'm very sure that a device that can track 12000 pilot's schedules and keep them legal can be "programmed" for such a task.

A complex task, to be sure. Hard? Not at all. Once the methodology is worked out, the bookkeeping is a piece of cake.

Nu

Can you give me an example of any merger that has had a dynamic list? I am not familiar with one. Someone also stated on here that attrition itself has also never been taken into account for a merger of lists.

 

[NuGuy]

Can you give me an example of any merger that has had a dynamic list? I am not familiar with one. Someone also stated on here that attrition itself has also never been taken into account for a merger of lists.

Before 1903, could you give me an example of a powered, heavier-than-air flying machine?

New mergers cover new ground. But I understand you DAL guys are scared of new things....gasp, imagine using manuals NOT written by Boeing and ACARS delivering your weight/performance data....oh, the horror...Grog not understand!

Nu

 

[DAL737FO]

Before 1903, could you give me an example of a powered, heavier-than-air flying machine?

New mergers cover new ground. But I understand you DAL guys are scared of new things....gasp, imagine using manuals NOT written by Boeing and ACARS delivering your weight/performance data....oh, the horror...Grog not understand!

Nu

Nu,

Get used to the Boeing manuals because that is what you are going to be using. ACARS weight and balance too. Is it true that you guys don't single engine taxi as a rule?

DAL737FO
flying 757/767

 

[jetflier]

Nu,

Get used to the Boeing manuals because that is what you are going to be using. ACARS weight and balance too. Is it true that you guys don't single engine taxi as a rule?

DAL737FO
flying 757/767

I heard that DAL previously used their own manuals and procedures for fleet standardization similar to NWA but then switched to the various manufacturers procedures.

Single engine taxi at NWA is at Capt discretion depending on weight and other factors, (snow,ice).
Most pilots do SE taxi when possible.

 

[Fly4hire]

Can you give me an example of any merger that has had a dynamic list? I am not familiar with one. Someone also stated on here that attrition itself has also never been taken into account for a merger of lists.

Can you give me an example of any previous merger of two airlines with two so similarly matched pilot groups and operations on the scale of NWA and DAL? According to arguments made, the Nicolau award granted WB positions in excess of those held by the USA pilots as a form of accounting for attrition.

Using examples of much more asymmetric pilot groups arbitrations as the precedent for this SLI is essentially a "land grab". As has been observed in the hearings regarding the DAL proposal "every condition...was designed to benefit DAL at the detriment of NWA Pilots"

Who knows what is in the mind of the arbitrators, but they don't appear to be biting, and hopefully productive negotiations are ensuing and we can get a realistic negotiated list. There are a lot of precedents in this merger - perhaps a negotiated list where one group does not feel thoroughly taken advantage of by the other might be one of them?

 

[DTW320]

Hmmm, you guys HAVE heard of that new fashioned thingy called a "computer", right?

They've heard of them.....they just can't use one for booking a jumpseat.....not many payphones at Hartsfield-Jackson anymore....there will be long lines at the few remaining to get that J/S to DTW & MSP after the 767's/MD90's get sent there. Maybe they've heard of cellphones...don't know.

 

[ExAF]

Don't Think So

Nu,

Get used to the Boeing manuals because that is what you are going to be using. ACARS weight and balance too. Is it true that you guys don't single engine taxi as a rule?

DAL737FO
flying 757/767

Those Boeing manuals aren't going to work too well for us Bus drivers. I bet DAL continues to use the NWA manuals for the foreseeable future.

 

[Sinca3]

It's not that complicated. What it would do is allow NWA guys to advance with NWA attrition and DAL guys advance with DAL attrition. You don't like it as NWA has greater and sooner attrition than DAL.

I agree that a dynamic list isn't going to happen. I have talked to the MEC and it is a nightmare to administer....eg,
Today a AE comes out and I am senior to you and before the close of the AE there are a # of retirements we now (due to the dynamic list) are in different seniority places and you are senior. Which number do you look at? The day the AE came out or the day it closes?
There are many different senarios just like this that make a dynamic list an impossibility.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Very simple. Go to our ape system. Monthly awards/displacements with an effective date 4 1/2 months out.

I agree that a dynamic list isn't going to happen. I have talked to the MEC and it is a nightmare to administer....eg,
Today a AE comes out and I am senior to you and before the close of the AE there are a # of retirements we now (due to the dynamic list) are in different seniority places and you are senior. Which number do you look at? The day the AE came out or the day it closes?
There are many different senarios just like this that make a dynamic list an impossibility.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Will not happen. DAL management will not agree to that system, that is why it was not adopted in the JPWA.

 

[FDJ2]

According to arguments made, the Nicolau award granted WB positions in excess of those held by the USA pilots as a form of accounting for attrition.

Nicolau awarded both the captain and first officer positions on the international 767/757/330 categories because AWA had no pre-merger expectation of those positions. This gave a certain number of AAA pilots who did not hold an international left seat the opportunity to bid it before the number one AWA pilot could.

 

[tblosser]

Those Boeing manuals aren't going to work too well for us Bus drivers. I bet DAL continues to use the NWA manuals for the foreseeable future.

[FONT=&quot]I would expect the airbus fleets will transition to airbus books soon. The legal department is the reason we changed to Boeing books from our own in house books[/FONT]

 

[tblosser]

You yankee boys need to learn to spell correctly...It`s Y`all, not ya`ll....
BTW, Y`all always means more than one person...a big bunch is "All Y`all"

[FONT=&quot]Yankee boy? Them is fightn' words. I bleed Carolina Blue.
[/FONT]

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

What is their aversion to it?? Seems to me that it makes for a smoother, more predictable way. Bwtfdik>

Will not happen. DAL management will not agree to that system, that is why it was not adopted in the JPWA.

 

[NuGuy]

What is their aversion to it?? Seems to me that it makes for a smoother, more predictable way. Bwtfdik>

Heyas Cobra,

Right you are. RA's problem is that, barring some kind of novel mechanism, there ARE going to be some kind of fences, and by the looks of direction that the arbitration is going, fairly tall ones.

This is exactly what he didn't want. Mind you, the arbitrators are under ZERO obligation to the company, only to the parties directly involved, and they have said that their goal will be to find the solutions that the most people will find acceptable.

What RA does with this is anyone's guess. He can nuke the whole thing, saying it "costs too much", but that treds into unchartered legal waters not to mention throwing a carefully crafted deal into chaos. He can park aircraft that are fenced, but that only raises the "replacement aircraft" spectre, with subsequent arbitrations (this gets expensive for the company REAL quick).

I will grant that the mechanics of a dynamic list is full of details. But we have smart guys working on the problem, and they can be ironed out with a solid methodology. Once that is done, the boils down to pressing a button once, twice or 12 times a year to produce a list. With DALs "once a year" AE system, it should hardly be time consuming.

Nu

 

[FBN0223]

Nu,

Get used to the Boeing manuals because that is what you are going to be using. ACARS weight and balance too. Is it true that you guys don't single engine taxi as a rule?

DAL737FO
flying 757/767

Wrong!!! The Feds in ATL and MSP are convinced NWA has the best manuals/procedures in the business. Get ready for some revisions Ya'll.

 

[800Dog]

Wrong!!! The Feds in ATL and MSP are convinced NWA has the best manuals/procedures in the business. Get ready for some revisions Ya'll.

Not the Fed in ATL I am married to eh!

 

[767/757]

Wrong!!! The Feds in ATL and MSP are convinced NWA has the best manuals/procedures in the business. Get ready for some revisions Ya'll.

You will see the new DAL go to the manufacturer's manuals only - it has to do liability not usability. DAL changed all fleets virtually overnight after the Swiss flt 111 crash of 1998.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Wrong!!! The Feds in ATL and MSP are convinced NWA has the best manuals/procedures in the business. Get ready for some revisions Ya'll.

Sorry man...DL manuals are what you guys are getting. I like the NWA manuals better than hours....its just we have the larger fleets and from a liability view manufacturer manuals are better.

I love the sopa/smac formats and such, personally. Apparently DL used to have something similar... but as has previously been stated they changed them.

 

[JohnQ]

Sorry man...DL manuals are what you guys are getting. I like the NWA manuals better than hours....its just we have the larger fleets and from a liability view manufacturer manuals are better.

I love the sopa/smac formats and such, personally. Apparently DL used to have something similar... but as has previously been stated they changed them.

Yeah, we had a whole different manual set a few years ago. While there are some elements of the Boeing books that I like, overall I think I liked the older DAL manuals better. I wish we would go to the NWA books, though I suspect it will be Boeing (Airbus).