NWA/DAL Arbitration hearing

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly. After one list retires the other one kicks in. Do you want to see your guys stagnate as our guys move up. You cannot have it one way. It would have to work for both sides. Ala it ain't gonna happen as it is too complicated.

 

[FDJ2]

From the SLI Proposal:

"2. The date of constructive notice was April 14, 2008"

There's that pesky phrase. My guess is that your 777 orders were made after this date.

Nu

Delta's 10K from February lists 8 firm 777 orders.

 

[FDJ2]

I don't know if this was a direct quote or spin but if it holds true, it is a huge warning shot.

It pretty much blows the whole concept out of the water that NWA is in a superior financial position when compared to DAL, with "super" fortress hubs and "super" wide bodied flying, with a "super" Narita hub.

Looks more like international is international, wide bodied aircraft are wide bodied aircraft, large domestic is large, medium is medium and even "ever ready energizer bunnie" DC-9s are still just small gauge DC-9s.

 

[General Lee]

Not without a dynamic list to account for attrition. Again, this would be an absolute windfall for DALPA. If the DAL has the significant attrition you say it does, the dynamic concept shouldn't bother you.

Schwanker

I guess you think AWA was awarded an absolute windfall by Nicelau?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

"Try to think of both NWA and DAL guys that have been furloughed and have had to endure more than you have before you start throwing up the white flag."


Are the furloughed NWA people now going to be given longevity credit for time previously spent on furlough?

I believe so.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I have heard the same, that 30 DC9's would be pulled from the desert.

As far as the statement about the 787 not being on the DAL property, ugh....general, you know better than to back up here-say.

I'll believe it when I see it on paper.

Hey, I just printed a quote that I thought was interesting. If you re-read my post, I didn't say it was the truth. We do have incommand (new Capt) seminars all the time (since we are growing and getting new planes---something you really aren't doing), and RA does attend those. I just thought it was an interesting quote. And, we also hear we are getting 25 MD90s from Saudia for cheap, and they could be deployed to MSP since they could hit both coasts from there. Just like your DC9 rumor, all speculation, except for the fact that Steenland did say your DC9 numbers were going to decrease from 94 to 63, or down to just 41 -40s/-50s. That was not reflected in your SLI proposal computer model, though, as stated by your guy on the stand. He stated it still had enough Captains for 94 of them, which is unlikely.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[tblosser]

Gen

With all due respect, DAL is big in the Atlantic market from Pan Am, not from Delta. Delta snowballed PAA and assimilated the Atlantic operation while assigning the PAA pilots a seniority something like 1 for 11 until they got to zero and kept going so that Delta hired on top of the most junior PAA pilot. Certainly not fair or even remotely towards the middle as you suggested the kind DAL ALPA was/is.


There were Pan Am guys that were initially put below future Delta newhires. However this was done at the request of the PAA MEC. Why would they do this? Because they were not pilots they were engineers and not part of ALPA. The engineers union tried to do an end run around PAA ALPA to get a more favorable integration for themselves. At any rate it was corrected once everyone was on the property here at Delta

We all know that PAA was smaller than DAL,...kind of leaves a bad taste in ones mouth.


We also all know that the pilots that came to Delta from PAA keep flying while those who stayed at PAA eventually saw they job disappear. This has no bearing on what is happening today.


NWA might be a little bit smaller, but NWA is financially stronger making more profit from every dollar spent. We'll show yalls how,...just watch...

The plural of ya’ll is yens. As in yens are gonna learn to speak southern like or not.

 

[General Lee]

There are still ~92 DC-9's on the property as we speak, with plans for 64 by years end. Where the hell to you come up with 41?

Also persistent rumors of increasing the numbers of DC9's by up to 30 as fuel prices drop. The ones that are parked are in "hot" storage and can be back on line in very short order.

41 was the final number of -40s/-50s. After you get rid of all of the -30s, you would have 41 of the larger versions left. It would be great if you did keep more DC9s, but just like our MD90 rumor, it is all speculation. What we do have to go by now is what your current CEO has stated, which is closer to the 63 or 41 numbers.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

41 was the final number of -40s/-50s. After you get rid of all of the -30s, you would have 41 of the larger versions left. It would be great if you did keep more DC9s, but just like our MD90 rumor, it is all speculation. What we do have to go by now is what your current CEO has stated, which is closer to the 63 or 41 numbers.

Odd...we heard that the MX management types mentioned that the 90s were going away. Something about there's no commonality with the rest of the fleet (like NWAs MD80 fleet), and that there are reasonably priced Airbus 320s that could be used to replace them.

Given a choice of adding a defunct airplane to an already small fleet (16), or adding more 320s to an already large fleet, I could see the -90s getting parked in exchange for some 320s, especiallly if Airbus is trying to get more 330 orders, which we all know RA loves.

But don't worry, I'm sure you can make some good points at the "replacement aircraft" arbitration.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

...even "ever ready energizer bunnie" DC-9s are still just small gauge DC-9s.

Hey FDJ,

I see you guys are still coordinating your talking points. But tell your buddies on the Communications Committee that it's actually spelled: Eveready (one word, capitalized proper noun), Energizer (capitalized proper noun) bunny (my 1st grade niece knows how to spell bunny).

And yes, they're still going....

Tell all the boyos on the Communications Committee "hi" for me.


Nu

 

[retired guy]

The plural of ya’ll is yens. As in yens are gonna learn to speak southern like or not.

You yankee boys need to learn to spell correctly...It`s Y`all, not ya`ll....
BTW, Y`all always means more than one person...a big bunch is "All Y`all"

 

[General Lee]

Odd...we heard that the MX management types mentioned that the 90s were going away. Something about there's no commonality with the rest of the fleet (like NWAs MD80 fleet), and that there are reasonably priced Airbus 320s that could be used to replace them.

Given a choice of adding a defunct airplane to an already small fleet (16), or adding more 320s to an already large fleet, I could see the -90s getting parked in exchange for some 320s, especiallly if Airbus is trying to get more 330 orders, which we all know RA loves.

But don't worry, I'm sure you can make some good points at the "replacement aircraft" arbitration.

Nu

No commonality? With NWA's MD80 fleet? Huh? What does your computer model say about it? I think it still thinks you have ex Republic MD80s, NWA 727s and DC10s, and that your SLI should show that. I am glad you can see the MD90s getting parked, when you just lost some A319s and 757s (some to Fedex). Did you see that coming? I thought you said the 757s were going to the desert and would come back in better times? And were the MX types you talked about the same guys that stated on the online deal that the 742s were going away? He said it, you know (TC are his initials). He will be incharge of MX after the merger, you know....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

I guess you think AWA was awarded an absolute windfall by Nicelau?

Bye Bye--General Lee

Just like everyone else. Why were the AWA guys so happy and the USAir guys so upset? I guess one side must have got a better deal. And not to mention, Easties may not even had jobs had it not been for this merger. This merger is of equals, more similar demographics and fleets. If Nicelau was a lopsided award in that case, it would be even worse in ours.

 

[Schwanker]

Exactly. After one list retires the other one kicks in. Do you want to see your guys stagnate as our guys move up. You cannot have it one way. It would have to work for both sides. Ala it ain't gonna happen as it is too complicated.

It's not that complicated. What it would do is allow NWA guys to advance with NWA attrition and DAL guys advance with DAL attrition. You don't like it as NWA has greater and sooner attrition than DAL.

 

[General Lee]

Just like everyone else. Why were the AWA guys so happy and the USAir guys so upset? I guess one side must have got a better deal. And not to mention, Easties may not even had jobs had it not been for this merger. This merger is of equals, more similar demographics and fleets. If Nicelau was a lopsided award in that case, it would be even worse in ours.

Yes, but the Easties got the top 500 spots, since they had something "different" they brought to the table. The only thing I see as "different" with us is the issue of planes coming or going into our combined fleet. All of that will be presented confidentially with our business plan I would assume. I thought it was fair, even with the top 500 going to Easties since they had something completely different than AWA. If you were in the bottom 25% of one of the seperate companies, you would end up close to the bottom 25% of the new company. Our list was essentially the same, except for the planes leaving the fleet were reflected in the bottom 400 pilots being all NWA.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

It's not that complicated. What it would do is allow NWA guys to advance with NWA attrition and DAL guys advance with DAL attrition. You don't like it as NWA has greater and sooner attrition than DAL.

Your A320FO on the stand a couple days ago admitted that attrition has NEVER been used in any airline seniority list integration. What you thought was "rude" questioning on the stand, actually brought out the correct answer.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

It's not that complicated. What it would do is allow NWA guys to advance with NWA attrition and DAL guys advance with DAL attrition. You don't like it as NWA has greater and sooner attrition than DAL.

I would have no problem with a dynamic list. You guys have more retirements short term, we have more long term. Between now and when I retire, Delta has far more retirements. I think a dynamic list would help me more than hurt me.

I just happen to think a dynamic list would be too hard to administer. I think there would be an argument on how much people move up, or some other problem like that, every time someone retired.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Like I said too complicated, and there is no way that a dynamic list could happen and be enforced for 40 years. (Career term of the youngest pilot)

 

[NuGuy]

Like I said too complicated, and there is no way that a dynamic list could happen and be enforced for 40 years. (Career term of the youngest pilot)

Hmmm, you guys HAVE heard of that new fashioned thingy called a "computer", right?

I'm very sure that a device that can track 12000 pilot's schedules and keep them legal can be "programmed" for such a task.

A complex task, to be sure. Hard? Not at all. Once the methodology is worked out, the bookkeeping is a piece of cake.

Nu

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It is not the computer that I would not trust, it is the process of doing such a thing.