Northwest Pilots explain problems holding up combination talks

[surfnfly]

Maybe if our wonderful union ALPA would use our dues money we pay them to come up with a real merger policy that is realistic, we would not have to fight against each other and save our time for more important things (golf,fishing,surfing,etc..)

 

[PCL_128]

Everybody seems to be getting worked up about things that you don't even know for sure are going on. Do you really believe the rumors and media reports? Nobody really knows if the NWA guys are trying to staple the bottom 1000 DAL guys. Nobody really knows if the NWA committee is trying to capture the top 400 slots. This is all speculation and media reports, and we all know how accurate the media reports on our profession (not). Until official word comes out, don't hang the NWA committee yet. They might be a lot more reasonable than the rumors suggest.

 

[Diesel-9]

800DOG, Read the ALPA National NWA/DAL Merger/Financial analysis. Then join the debate. It has these numbers and data in it.. "All the big growth is coming to Asia in the next 20 years. Pacific growth rates double there over any other region. DAL has 0.2% of their ops there. NWA has 10% of their ops there. And DAL $$$ #'s aren't strong. DAL has $4.0 Billion debt due now through 2011, and then another $4.0 Bil note due soon after 2011. NWA Short term debt $1.9. DAL has $1.0 Billion LESS cash on hand than NWA. DAL CASM is 10% higher than NWA. NWA Cash/Monthly Expense ratio over twice as good as DAL, 3.2 to 1.5 and NWA operating margin is almost 60% higher than DAL. NWA pretax margin is 139% higher than DAL. NWA had the highest operating margins in the industry in 2007. NWA gets 12% revenue from RJ's while DAL is 25%/expensive. DAL needs a merger/help before end of 2009 or gets tight on cash again. Isn't that getting close to your next contract? OOOPS! Wonder how that happened? Who really needs who? p.s. Delta is looking for someones cash, cash flow and access to the Pacific. Delta isn't buying NWA or anyone. IF this MERGER happens, it will be a STOCK SWAP. Heard the equity is 5-7% but the pilots are FAR apart on seniority integration. At least the DAL senior brothers got theirs and ran off wth the scope. This could/should be a very good deal for all. 1+1=3. Looks like Southern Hospitality is getting in the way.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think that's wishful thinking at this point. You got a good deal offered in good faith and the likelihood of getting the same deal or better in arbitration is minimal.

As dense as we may appear in in the media, we aren't so dense that we don't recognize a "good" deal. If it was a good deal (as the contract appears to be), then I'm confident our team would accept it.

The fact that they haven't, in light of the apparent contractual enticements, indicates the SLI offer isn't as "sweet" as it's being portrayed. If there's one thing I can state with absolute certainty, it's that NWA pilots like big contract improvements. So, applying the concept of, ahem, Occam's Razor...the simplest answer is probably the correct one: The SLI offer isn't "good".

Your merger committee didn't come prepared to iron out a seniority list, it showed up to posture for advantage and has potentially squandered a rare opportunity. You need new blood in that committee and I think you know that.

[Caution! Quibble Ahead!] Welllllll, I'd prefer to see negotiators in there instead of arbitration experts...but despite my persistent demands to be named Emperor of All (with it's inherent right of summary execution)...my MEC has chosen this team. Our MEC has also reviewed the activities at the table, including the contractual changes, so it might not be just the guys on the team.

Our team showed up to get the best deal they could. I think your's did too.

I concur that this opportunity is rare. In fact, I believe the scope and uniqueness of this opportunity makes it a good deal for both pilot groups, even without the nice contract stuff.

There are only a handful of years when NWA retirements have an impact, thereafter its mostly DAL retirements.

From what I understand, neither side is disputing the math of the retirement projections. The issue is where to place pilots on the list so that all will have an relatively equal mathematical opportunity to advance.

Relative seniority for an airline receiving significantly greater contractual improvements than the company they are merging with and significantly greater access to premium paying wide bodied flying as a result of the merger is a good deal and one an arbitrator is unlikely to match.

Here's where our team probably has an advantage. We have 22 years of experience wrasslin' on merger issues in front of arbitrators. Which arbitrators?

All of them!

On a percentage basis you are over twice as likely to be a DAL wide bodied captain than a NWA wide bodied captain. DAL has a significant advantage in wide bodied airframes and pay across the entire fleet.

Your math is wrong. Not your fault, but it's wrong. You fly more than half your widebodies (767's) as a composite with narrowbodies. You staff differently, and augment differently. Your "captains-per-hull" ratio is lower than ours by about 20% in the widebody categories.

The fact that your pay is better than ours is due to factors that reflect the different priorities of the two pilot groups at the point where decisions had to be made. If we chose to deconstruct the contracts, I think you'd see a complimentary blend of goodies.

Not many arbitrators have taken a seniorty bump 5-10 years out into consideration lately. Talk to our friends at AAA and they'll tell you how that worked out for them. Counting wide bodied air frames vs narrow bodied airframes and the contractual values brought to the merger have been given significantly greater weight.

You're speculating. Since a list integration with these demographics has never been taken to an arbitrator, speculation on exactly HOW an arbitrator would weigh the factors is pure bar talk.

The biggest selling point to settling this like adults is because both sides would lose control of this issue as soon as it goes to arbitration! We can influence the result as long as we are in control. Sending it to an arbitrator is to give up ANY control over the outcome.

It also signals to the world that pilots are petulant morons. (Like THAT'S a surprise!)

Hopefully at this point they'll be no merger, if there is and we go down the traditional path a handful of pilots who have been in your committee for far too long will have squandered an unprecendented opportunity, for significant contractual improvements and upfront incentives, rolling the dice on a process that with all likelihhod will not yield a better outcome than what was offered.

I don't share your hope. I hope it happens. I think the opportunity is unprecedented. I also think there is a place on the combined list for each pilot that would result in everybody being a little p!ssed. Sadly, that's probably the "fairest" option.

I also think it's lame to think that guys as sharp as your leadership would open with a "final offer". They can move. We can move. The deal can get done.

Then we'll crush American, United, USAirways, and Continental like baby harp seals!

[Note: Reason #1 why I haven't been named Emperor of All] :nuts:

 

[Diesel-9]

Occam. Well said.

 

[propdog]

I second...well said!!

 

[Noserider76]

Here's where our team probably has an advantage. We have 22 years of experience wrasslin' on merger issues in front of arbitrators. Which arbitrators?

All of them!

Probably a moot point since Atlanta radio is reporting both companies are walking away from the deal but, does anyone know how arbitration would work in this case?

Would the arbitrator make his decision then the companies decide if the merger is worth it or would the merger occur first?

Would the pilot groups still get equity and contract improvements without a negotiated settlement?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Probably a moot point since Atlanta radio is reporting both companies are walking away from the deal but,

DEWEY WINS?

Would the arbitrator make his decision then the companies decide if the merger is worth it or would the merger occur first?

Hang in there, brother! It ain't over. The two sides will still have a chance to act like grown-ups and settle this.

Would the pilot groups still get equity and contract improvements without a negotiated settlement?

Interesting question. I have no clue. I can understand the benefits of throwing $$ at pilots to get along, even without a pilot-constructed deal. The biggest benefit is that the other employees will follow the pilot's lead. When they don't, bad things happen:

If you're the AFA or IAM at UAL...the "master plan" unravels. I you're AMFA at NWA...you lose.

On the other hand, why cough up incentives if the group you need to get-along is re-enacting the Battle of Hastings?

 

[Fly4hire]

I also think it's lame to think that guys as sharp as your leadership would open with a "final offer".

Concur. Like I said elsewhere for our fratricidal group to unanimously reject with the contractual goodies on the table, the SLI had to be really bad.

The first step to get this moving is for DALPA to get over the Maverick and Goose bravado. Not impressed, nor useful at the table. (The only people who like fighter pilots are little kids and other fighter pilots).

The second is to quit thinking of NWA as some Midwest "also ran". Don't bring anything to the table? Better take a closer look at the financials. Doesn't matter if the DC9 are old - got anything else in the 100-130 seat range availble now? (Plus MEH operation) You had them and gave them away. I'm sure CMR would be willing to help ya'll. 67 787's are going to completely blow the competitive RPM doors off anything else in the markets they serve. DAL needs those aircraft, and the markets they serve.

Third, get over the sophomoric (see #1) attitude that NW pilots think being DL pilots is some sort of compensation in itself. Not. Could care less. Much rather do a deal with CAL, and watching a DAL and UAL SLI would be priceless.

I think the deal is doable as well, but it's not NWALPA holding it up.

 

[Noserider76]

Hang in there, brother! It ain't over. The two sides will still have a chance to act like grown-ups and settle this.

Either way it works out, beverages on me if I run into you or any other NW guys on a trip (unless it's before 0900, then it'll have to be coffee I guess) Take care.

 

[General Lee]

So they should just be happy being Delta pilots?



You can't be a DAL wide body captain if there are no vacancies. There will be many wide body vacancies at NWA in the coming years, there will not be many wide body vacancies at DAL in the coming years.

REALLY? We are expanding and getting more widebodies. There are plenty of vaccancies, as long as we get more airplanes and expand to INTL destinations. We are doing just that. How many more 777 Captains will be needed for just the 6 777LRs we will get within a 3 month period early next year alone?


In the only recent SLI case an arbitrator has seen (USAir/AWA), the arbitrator took the seniority bump USAir pilots were expecting into account by instituting a five year fence where AWA pilots couldn't bid for USAir wide bodies. Of course the flaw in this is the age 65 rule was instituted shortly after the ruling, effectively wiping out the fence.

The solution in my opinion is a blended seniority list with a 10 year period where vacancies on caused by attrition would be filled by pilots of the legacy companies seniority list. In other words, vacancies caused by an NWA retirement would be filled by a current NWA pilot and vacancies caused by a DAL retirement would be filled by a DAL pilot. Growth aircraft would be staffed by whomever could hold the seat and displaced pilots get the first shot back at their former seat.

Their former seat? On the DC9? What if it goes away? Then what? How about the 742?



I suspect NWA pilots are saying something similar.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

In the only recent SLI case an arbitrator has seen (USAir/AWA), the arbitrator took the seniority bump USAir pilots were expecting into account by instituting a five year fence where AWA pilots couldn't bid for USAir wide bodies. Of course the flaw in this is the age 65 rule was instituted shortly after the ruling, effectively wiping out the fence.

IOW no consideration for attrition 5 years out, yet you want consideration 10-15 years out.

You'll also notice that significantly more weight was given to wide bodied paying positions. DAL brings much more wide bodied aircraft to the merger.

Look, we all make our own decisions, there is no cram down here, just an opportunity to get out in front of a merger with real gains today, not possibiliies of gains sometime in the distant future.

It's a bird in the hand v. two in the bush scenario, only there is no telling if there actually are birds in that bush 5-10 years from now.

Regardless, I respect the right of the NWA pilots to seek their own path. I think the path your merger committee is dictating to you is foolish, with little liklihood of improving the careers of NWA pilots, but hey, it's your committee. They've done a good job of never succesfully negotiating an outcome in the two decades they've held office, so they've always been able to blame an arbitrator. I guess that's the key to longevity in your committee, passing the buck and never taking ownership of a result.

 

[737 Pylt]

They've done a good job of never succesfully negotiating an outcome in the two decades they've held office, so they've always been able to blame an arbitrator. I guess that's the key to longevity in your committee, passing the buck and never taking ownership of a result.

Kinda like the US Airways east.........

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

Welllllll, I'd prefer to see negotiators in there instead of arbitration experts...

Our team showed up to get the best deal they could. I think your's did too.

I think you are on to something. What is the track record of the team sent to the table? 26 arbitrations and 0 (zero) agreements, since the DOH SLI under Roberts. Am I mistaken? Might as well send Genghis Kahn to the table.

As you pointed out, this was a trial team not a negotiating team.

Here's where our team probably has an advantage. We have 22 years of experience wrasslin' on merger issues in front of arbitrators. Which arbitrators?

All of them!

Do not underestimate the ability of the Delta pilots to prepare and present an arbitration. The skills are fairly elementary and 90% of success is doing your homework and coming prepared. The NWA team will not be going up against NWA management, or another aggrieved pilot. The Delta pilots have a reputation that has been honestly earned.

From what I understand, neither side is disputing the math of the retirement projections. The issue is where to place pilots on the list so that all will have an relatively equal mathematical opportunity to advance.

Define "advance." By the posts by NWA pilots on this board "advance" means the ability to increase seniority against their peers at Delta, or at a minimum increase % seniority standing amongst the group as NWA pilots retire.

I think it would be better to broaden the definition. What about moving from a DC-9 to a widebody category, is that advancement? (757&767 are both widebodies and paid as such at Delta). You can not just look at % seniority, you have to also consider what that % seniority will get you career wise.

Your "captains-per-hull" ratio is lower than ours by about 20% in the widebody categories.

That is changing quick with the new 777's that require dual crews for the flying that they will be doing

• I concur that this opportunity is rare. In fact, I believe the scope and uniqueness of this opportunity makes it a good deal for both pilot groups,
• If we chose to deconstruct the contracts, I think you'd see a complimentary blend of goodies.
• The biggest selling point to settling this like adults is because both sides would lose control of this issue as soon as it goes to arbitration! We can influence the result as long as we are in control. Sending it to an arbitrator is to give up ANY control over the outcome....It also signals to the world that pilots are petulant morons.
• I hope it happens. I think the opportunity is unprecedented. I also think it's lame to think that guys as sharp as your leadership would open with a "final offer". They can move. We can move. The deal can get done.
• Then we'll crush American, United, USAirways, and Continental like baby harp seals!

All agreed. I'd rather beat up on them than have you and I beating up on each other.

 

[nwaredtail]

Kinda like the US Airways east.........

737

On "average" if NWA/DAL went DOH (which will never happen) NWA pilots would be 8-10% more senior on the combined list. "hardly a windfall". Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.

USAir was weeks away from LIQUIDATION before the merger with AWA.

Comparing NWA to USair shows how ignorant you are. Have fun going at it alone. NWA will be just fine.

 

[737 Pylt]

On "average" if NWA/DAL went DOH (which will never happen) NWA pilots would be 8-10% more senior on the combined list. "hardly a windfall". Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.

When it concerns the NWALPA spin, its more like fiction!

USAir was weeks away from LIQUIDATION before the merger with AWA.

Comparing NWA to USair shows how ignorant you are.

Stapling the bottom 3000 Delta pilots to the bottom of the list shows how arrogant you are!

Have fun going at it alone. NWA will be just fine.

On this we can agree!:beer:

737

 

[michael707767]

On "average" if NWA/DAL went DOH (which will never happen) NWA pilots would be 8-10% more senior on the combined list. "hardly a windfall".

Given that even a straight percentage merger would move many NWA pilots into widebody seniority on the combined list where they can't hold it now, yes I think an 8-10% bump in seniority is a huge windfall.

 

[nwaredtail]

Stapling the bottom 3000 Delta pilots to the bottom of the list shows how arrogant you are!

And you believe that was a NWA proposal? I have a L1011 for sale if you are interested?

 

[Noserider76]

Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.

I'm guessing one because they've done thousands of hours of research and wanted to present something that was "fair" or "unfair" to all so it would have a chance to be approved by both sides in the short window required. Their goal was to implement the DAL MEC's idea to capture the benefits of the merger for both groups as opposed to just being along for the ride. How many have NWAALPA presented? What have they done besides look out for themselves?

 

[~~~^~~~]

On "average" if NWA/DAL went DOH (which will never happen) NWA pilots would be 8-10% more senior on the combined list. "hardly a windfall". Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.

Again, it depends on what that seniority will get you. If it gets you an upgrade from a -9 to a 777 (which it would on the FO side) that's a pretty significant windfall.

Rumors are the opener was the bottom line. The Delta pilots did not come to the table trying to B.S. anybody. They showed their cards in good faith.

As you pointed out, NWA will do just fine without Delta and Delta will do just fine without NWA. We both will miss out on the opportunities created by using NWA's fleet to operate Delta's pacific route authorities purchased from Pan Am.

Delta will order aircraft to fly those routes (and our new hires will advance), but by then everyone else (including you) will be getting 787's and Delta will be simply another competitor instead of the World's dominant airline.