Northwest Pilots explain problems holding up combination talks

[General Lee]

So they should just be happy being Delta pilots?



You can't be a DAL wide body captain if there are no vacancies. There will be many wide body vacancies at NWA in the coming years, there will not be many wide body vacancies at DAL in the coming years.

REALLY? We are expanding and getting more widebodies. There are plenty of vaccancies, as long as we get more airplanes and expand to INTL destinations. We are doing just that. How many more 777 Captains will be needed for just the 6 777LRs we will get within a 3 month period early next year alone?


In the only recent SLI case an arbitrator has seen (USAir/AWA), the arbitrator took the seniority bump USAir pilots were expecting into account by instituting a five year fence where AWA pilots couldn't bid for USAir wide bodies. Of course the flaw in this is the age 65 rule was instituted shortly after the ruling, effectively wiping out the fence.

The solution in my opinion is a blended seniority list with a 10 year period where vacancies on caused by attrition would be filled by pilots of the legacy companies seniority list. In other words, vacancies caused by an NWA retirement would be filled by a current NWA pilot and vacancies caused by a DAL retirement would be filled by a DAL pilot. Growth aircraft would be staffed by whomever could hold the seat and displaced pilots get the first shot back at their former seat.

Their former seat? On the DC9? What if it goes away? Then what? How about the 742?



I suspect NWA pilots are saying something similar.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

In the only recent SLI case an arbitrator has seen (USAir/AWA), the arbitrator took the seniority bump USAir pilots were expecting into account by instituting a five year fence where AWA pilots couldn't bid for USAir wide bodies. Of course the flaw in this is the age 65 rule was instituted shortly after the ruling, effectively wiping out the fence.

IOW no consideration for attrition 5 years out, yet you want consideration 10-15 years out.

You'll also notice that significantly more weight was given to wide bodied paying positions. DAL brings much more wide bodied aircraft to the merger.

Look, we all make our own decisions, there is no cram down here, just an opportunity to get out in front of a merger with real gains today, not possibiliies of gains sometime in the distant future.

It's a bird in the hand v. two in the bush scenario, only there is no telling if there actually are birds in that bush 5-10 years from now.

Regardless, I respect the right of the NWA pilots to seek their own path. I think the path your merger committee is dictating to you is foolish, with little liklihood of improving the careers of NWA pilots, but hey, it's your committee. They've done a good job of never succesfully negotiating an outcome in the two decades they've held office, so they've always been able to blame an arbitrator. I guess that's the key to longevity in your committee, passing the buck and never taking ownership of a result.

 

[737 Pylt]

They've done a good job of never succesfully negotiating an outcome in the two decades they've held office, so they've always been able to blame an arbitrator. I guess that's the key to longevity in your committee, passing the buck and never taking ownership of a result.

Kinda like the US Airways east.........

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

Welllllll, I'd prefer to see negotiators in there instead of arbitration experts...

Our team showed up to get the best deal they could. I think your's did too.

I think you are on to something. What is the track record of the team sent to the table? 26 arbitrations and 0 (zero) agreements, since the DOH SLI under Roberts. Am I mistaken? Might as well send Genghis Kahn to the table.

As you pointed out, this was a trial team not a negotiating team.

Here's where our team probably has an advantage. We have 22 years of experience wrasslin' on merger issues in front of arbitrators. Which arbitrators?

All of them!

Do not underestimate the ability of the Delta pilots to prepare and present an arbitration. The skills are fairly elementary and 90% of success is doing your homework and coming prepared. The NWA team will not be going up against NWA management, or another aggrieved pilot. The Delta pilots have a reputation that has been honestly earned.

From what I understand, neither side is disputing the math of the retirement projections. The issue is where to place pilots on the list so that all will have an relatively equal mathematical opportunity to advance.

Define "advance." By the posts by NWA pilots on this board "advance" means the ability to increase seniority against their peers at Delta, or at a minimum increase % seniority standing amongst the group as NWA pilots retire.

I think it would be better to broaden the definition. What about moving from a DC-9 to a widebody category, is that advancement? (757&767 are both widebodies and paid as such at Delta). You can not just look at % seniority, you have to also consider what that % seniority will get you career wise.

Your "captains-per-hull" ratio is lower than ours by about 20% in the widebody categories.

That is changing quick with the new 777's that require dual crews for the flying that they will be doing

• I concur that this opportunity is rare. In fact, I believe the scope and uniqueness of this opportunity makes it a good deal for both pilot groups,
• If we chose to deconstruct the contracts, I think you'd see a complimentary blend of goodies.
• The biggest selling point to settling this like adults is because both sides would lose control of this issue as soon as it goes to arbitration! We can influence the result as long as we are in control. Sending it to an arbitrator is to give up ANY control over the outcome....It also signals to the world that pilots are petulant morons.
• I hope it happens. I think the opportunity is unprecedented. I also think it's lame to think that guys as sharp as your leadership would open with a "final offer". They can move. We can move. The deal can get done.
• Then we'll crush American, United, USAirways, and Continental like baby harp seals!

All agreed. I'd rather beat up on them than have you and I beating up on each other.

 

[nwaredtail]

Kinda like the US Airways east.........

737

On "average" if NWA/DAL went DOH (which will never happen) NWA pilots would be 8-10% more senior on the combined list. "hardly a windfall". Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.

USAir was weeks away from LIQUIDATION before the merger with AWA.

Comparing NWA to USair shows how ignorant you are. Have fun going at it alone. NWA will be just fine.

 

[737 Pylt]

On "average" if NWA/DAL went DOH (which will never happen) NWA pilots would be 8-10% more senior on the combined list. "hardly a windfall". Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.

When it concerns the NWALPA spin, its more like fiction!

USAir was weeks away from LIQUIDATION before the merger with AWA.

Comparing NWA to USair shows how ignorant you are.

Stapling the bottom 3000 Delta pilots to the bottom of the list shows how arrogant you are!

Have fun going at it alone. NWA will be just fine.

On this we can agree!:beer:

737

 

[michael707767]

On "average" if NWA/DAL went DOH (which will never happen) NWA pilots would be 8-10% more senior on the combined list. "hardly a windfall".

Given that even a straight percentage merger would move many NWA pilots into widebody seniority on the combined list where they can't hold it now, yes I think an 8-10% bump in seniority is a huge windfall.

 

[nwaredtail]

Stapling the bottom 3000 Delta pilots to the bottom of the list shows how arrogant you are!

And you believe that was a NWA proposal? I have a L1011 for sale if you are interested?

 

[Noserider76]

Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.

I'm guessing one because they've done thousands of hours of research and wanted to present something that was "fair" or "unfair" to all so it would have a chance to be approved by both sides in the short window required. Their goal was to implement the DAL MEC's idea to capture the benefits of the merger for both groups as opposed to just being along for the ride. How many have NWAALPA presented? What have they done besides look out for themselves?

 

[~~~^~~~]

On "average" if NWA/DAL went DOH (which will never happen) NWA pilots would be 8-10% more senior on the combined list. "hardly a windfall". Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.

Again, it depends on what that seniority will get you. If it gets you an upgrade from a -9 to a 777 (which it would on the FO side) that's a pretty significant windfall.

Rumors are the opener was the bottom line. The Delta pilots did not come to the table trying to B.S. anybody. They showed their cards in good faith.

As you pointed out, NWA will do just fine without Delta and Delta will do just fine without NWA. We both will miss out on the opportunities created by using NWA's fleet to operate Delta's pacific route authorities purchased from Pan Am.

Delta will order aircraft to fly those routes (and our new hires will advance), but by then everyone else (including you) will be getting 787's and Delta will be simply another competitor instead of the World's dominant airline.