Northwest Pilots explain problems holding up combination talks

[filejw]

Wake up, slappy...talk to me in 2 years when NWA is bankrupt again (or more likely, liquidated) and you need a letter of recommendation at Wiz Air.

Google it if you have to, it may be your next meal ticket.

Yo buddy check the numbers . NWA has less debt and cheaper operating cost than anybody.. They will be around.

 

[EdTeachLives!]

Sweet mercy! Pay attention!

The blending ratio will not complete the deal.

"Will NOT" <-- not an opinion

Under that methodology, the DAL pilots aren't impacted the way half of the NWA pilots are impacted.

That means it Will NOT happen.

There's room to move by both sides. There is also a "fair" number for each pilot on both lists. "Fair" in this context means everybody feels equally boned.

The combined carrier will result in beneficial math for both pilot groups because 1 + 1 = 2.5.

Really......? Tell me just where and how NWA pilots have moved in any of these negotiations. Oh, and while you are at it, explain what you feel is "fair".

Ed

 

[Noserider76]

I don't think so Occam. I think that's wishful thinking at this point. You got a good deal offered in good faith and the likelihood of getting the same deal or better in arbitration is minimal.

Your merger committee didn't come prepared to iron out a seniority list, it showed up to posture for advantage and has potentially squandered a rare opportunity. You need new blood in that committee and I think you know that.

There are only a handful of years when NWA retirements have an impact, thereafter its mostly DAL retirements.

Relative seniority for an airline receiving significantly greater contractual improvements than the company they are merging with and significantly greater access to premium paying wide bodied flying as a result of the merger is a good deal and one an arbitrator is unlikely to match.

On a percentage basis you are over twice as likely to be a DAL wide bodied captain than a NWA wide bodied captain. DAL has a significant advantage in wide bodied airframes and pay across the entire fleet.

Not many arbitrators have taken a seniorty bump 5-10 years out into consideration lately. Talk to our friends at AAA and they'll tell you how that worked out for them. Counting wide bodied air frames vs narrow bodied airframes and the contractual values brought to the merger have been given significantly greater weight.

Hopefully at this point they'll be no merger, if there is and we go down the traditional path a handful of pilots who have been in your committee for far too long will have squandered an unprecendented opportunity, for significant contractual improvements and upfront incentives, rolling the dice on a process that with all likelihhod will not yield a better outcome than what was offered.

Nice job summing up what seems to be the universal feeling at DL. Anything significantly less than what's on the table would almost certainly be shot down by DL guys in the Memrat anyway. Most feel we are receiving little in comparison to the NW guys as it is.

 

[Superpilot92]

What position does an 8 year FO hold at NWA?

thats not a FAIR comparison! DAL dropped 2000+ guys off relatively not that long ago. Which makes it APPEAR that the DAL guys are sitting alot prettier. IF NWA dropped the top 2000 guys off where do you then think the 8 year NWA guy would be sitting???? You DAL guys arent looking at this equally. DALs recent changes only make it appear lopsided. If NWA cut the top guys off where do you think i would be sitting as a newhire? If we bought out not even the top 2000 but only 1000 pilots at NWA I would as a newhire potentially hold DC9 CA.

Bottom line it COULD be a good deal for all if we work something out but I for one APPRECIATE that MY MEC is looking out for everyone in this, especially the FNGs like myself. just my 2 pennies worth.

 

[800Dog]

Yo buddy check the numbers . NWA has less debt and cheaper operating cost than anybody.. They will be around.

Something to be proud of!! What a joke!

 

[Redmeat]

Sweet mercy! Pay attention!

The blending ratio will not complete the deal.

"Will NOT" <-- not an opinion

Under that methodology, the DAL pilots aren't impacted the way half of the NWA pilots are impacted.

That means it Will NOT happen.

There's room to move by both sides. There is also a "fair" number for each pilot on both lists. "Fair" in this context means everybody feels equally boned.

The combined carrier will result in beneficial math for both pilot groups because 1 + 1 = 2.5.

Occam, talk some sense to your boys.

PLEASE!!!

We need this!

 

[On Your Six]

I don't think so Occam. I think that's wishful thinking at this point. You got a good deal offered in good faith and the likelihood of getting the same deal or better in arbitration is minimal.

Your merger committee didn't come prepared to iron out a seniority list, it showed up to posture for advantage and has potentially squandered a rare opportunity. You need new blood in that committee and I think you know that.

There are only a handful of years when NWA retirements have an impact, thereafter its mostly DAL retirements.

Relative seniority for an airline receiving significantly greater contractual improvements than the company they are merging with and significantly greater access to premium paying wide bodied flying as a result of the merger is a good deal and one an arbitrator is unlikely to match.

On a percentage basis you are over twice as likely to be a DAL wide bodied captain than a NWA wide bodied captain. DAL has a significant advantage in wide bodied airframes and pay across the entire fleet.

Not many arbitrators have taken a seniorty bump 5-10 years out into consideration lately. Talk to our friends at AAA and they'll tell you how that worked out for them. Counting wide bodied air frames vs narrow bodied airframes and the contractual values brought to the merger have been given significantly greater weight.

Hopefully at this point they'll be no merger, if there is and we go down the traditional path a handful of pilots who have been in your committee for far too long will have squandered an unprecendented opportunity, for significant contractual improvements and upfront incentives, rolling the dice on a process that with all likelihhod will not yield a better outcome than what was offered.

This is one of the best posts I have read in a long time. I encourage everyone to read it. I have friends at DAL who echo these sentiments.

This was an unprecedented opportunity to create a leading, dynamic airline. Looks like the NWA pilot negotiators have gone for a grand-slam home run in this case instead of looking at the long-term mutual benefits this combination would bring to the entire group.

 

[GogglesPisano]

The combined carrier will result in beneficial math for both pilot groups because 1 + 1 = 2.5.

So, you're thinking there won't be parking airplanes/furloughing as a result of this merger? Not 1,2,3 years from now?

 

[www.]

Nice job summing up what seems to be the universal feeling at DL. Anything significantly less than what's on the table would almost certainly be shot down by DL guys in the Memrat anyway. Most feel we are receiving little in comparison to the NW guys as it is.

Will the pilots from both groups be able to vote OR are the MECs going to handle it on their own?

 

[DrewBlows]

Relative seniority for an airline receiving significantly greater contractual improvements than the company they are merging with and significantly greater access to premium paying wide bodied flying as a result of the merger is a good deal and one an arbitrator is unlikely to match.

So they should just be happy being Delta pilots?

On a percentage basis you are over twice as likely to be a DAL wide bodied captain than a NWA wide bodied captain. DAL has a significant advantage in wide bodied airframes and pay across the entire fleet.

You can't be a DAL wide body captain if there are no vacancies. There will be many wide body vacancies at NWA in the coming years, there will not be many wide body vacancies at DAL in the coming years.

Not many arbitrators have taken a seniorty bump 5-10 years out into consideration lately. Talk to our friends at AAA and they'll tell you how that worked out for them. Counting wide bodied air frames vs narrow bodied airframes and the contractual values brought to the merger have been given significantly greater weight.

In the only recent SLI case an arbitrator has seen (USAir/AWA), the arbitrator took the seniority bump USAir pilots were expecting into account by instituting a five year fence where AWA pilots couldn't bid for USAir wide bodies. Of course the flaw in this is the age 65 rule was instituted shortly after the ruling, effectively wiping out the fence.

The solution in my opinion is a blended seniority list with a 10 year period where vacancies on caused by attrition would be filled by pilots of the legacy companies seniority list. In other words, vacancies caused by an NWA retirement would be filled by a current NWA pilot and vacancies caused by a DAL retirement would be filled by a DAL pilot. Growth aircraft would be staffed by whomever could hold the seat and displaced pilots get the first shot back at their former seat.

Hopefully at this point they'll be no merger, if there is and we go down the traditional path a handful of pilots who have been in your committee for far too long will have squandered an unprecendented opportunity, for significant contractual improvements and upfront incentives, rolling the dice on a process that with all likelihhod will not yield a better outcome than what was offered.

I suspect NWA pilots are saying something similar.