Northwest Pilots explain problems holding up combination talks

[~~~^~~~]

How many have NWAALPA presented?

Is demanding arbitration even considered a counter offer? Not that it was negotiable anyway.

What I do not understand is "no fences." Understand management wanted no fences to avoid problems with parking aircraft and displacements. Anyone understand how this works?

 

[Tejas-Jet]

No doubt the entire seniority issue will be fixed on FI.com

 

[737 Pylt]

And you believe that was a NWA proposal? I have a L1011 for sale if you are interested?

If its from the same lot as your old DC 10's, no thanks!

737

 

[nwaredtail]

Is demanding arbitration even considered a counter offer? Not that it was negotiable anyway.

What I do not understand is "no fences." Understand management wanted no fences to avoid problems with parking aircraft and displacements. Anyone understand how this works?

the merger committee or the NC never demanded "arbitration" of anything. Where did you hear that, General Lee?

 

[Noserider76]

Rumors are the opener was the bottom line. The Delta pilots did not come to the table trying to B.S. anybody. They showed their cards in good faith.

That's what I've heard as well. If they wanted to present an opener they would have presented an aircraft based integration like many DL guys would have liked to see. 747 seniority before-747 after, 767 FO seniority before-767 FO after, etc.

Not sure about the fences. I know why the company doesn't want them (divisive, limits their flexibilty, etc). I just don't see how you can do the biggest airline merger ever, with opposite fleets, bases, ages, pay scales, etc without them. There were even short fences in the DL/Western merger which is probably the most successful integration in recent memory.

 

[~~~^~~~]

the merger committee or the NC never demanded "arbitration" of anything. Where did you hear that, General Lee?

It has been reported all over the papers & matches the "inside" rumors. Is everyone incorrect?

What were the proposals?

 

[FDJ2]

As dense as we may appear in in the media, we aren't so dense that we don't recognize a "good" deal. If it was a good deal (as the contract appears to be), then I'm confident our team would accept it.

I'm just saying that the SLI offer isn't going to get any sweeter through negotiations and the likelihood of an arbitrator calculating a seniority bump 5-10 years out versus real airframes, real contractual values and real premium flying is minimal. But then again we all can draw our own conclusions.

The fact that they haven't, in light of the apparent contractual enticements, indicates the SLI offer isn't as "sweet" as it's being portrayed. If there's one thing I can state with absolute certainty, it's that NWA pilots like big contract improvements. So, applying the concept of, ahem, Occam's Razor...the simplest answer is probably the correct one: The SLI offer isn't "good".

That's fine. No deal. You can work on that big contract 4 years from now, you'll have plenty of time to prepare for it, hopefully the planets will align and you'll hit a home run.


[Caution! Quibble Ahead!] Welllllll, I'd prefer to see negotiators in there instead of arbitration experts...but despite my persistent demands to be named Emperor of All (with it's inherent right of summary execution)...my MEC has chosen this team. Our MEC has also reviewed the activities at the table, including the contractual changes, so it might not be just the guys on the team.

That's fine.

Our team showed up to get the best deal they could. I think your's did too.

Our team showed up to get a fair deal, not the best deal we could. Which might be the root of the problem.

I concur that this opportunity is rare. In fact, I believe the scope and uniqueness of this opportunity makes it a good deal for both pilot groups, even without the nice contract stuff.

Possibly a rare opportunity lost that we wont see again. We all make our own choices.


From what I understand, neither side is disputing the math of the retirement projections. The issue is where to place pilots on the list so that all will have an relatively equal mathematical opportunity to advance.

Well that's part of the problem, looking at just one issue, retirements some 5-10 years down the road, without looking at the entire picture, which is airframes, pay, work rule improvements and the prospects of a stronger growing company with real gains today versus retirements a decade or more down the road.

Here's where our team probably has an advantage. We have 22 years of experience wrasslin' on merger issues in front of arbitrators. Which arbitrators?

All of them!

Well there's something to be proud of. Allowing a third party to take control of the outcome.


Your math is wrong. Not your fault, but it's wrong. You fly more than half your widebodies (767's) as a composite with narrowbodies.

It's a widebodied category with wide bodied pay. Whether he flies a 767 or a 757 he's paid the same. Our domestic 767 category is paid about the same as your A330 category.

Your 757 pay is about equivalent to our MD88/90 pay.

Anyway you cut it there are significantly more wide bodied paying categories at DAL.

You staff differently, and augment differently. Your "captains-per-hull" ratio is lower than ours by about 20% in the widebody categories.

I count about 630 wide bodied captain paying positions at NWA and about 1820 at DAL. It's as simple as that.

The fact that your pay is better than ours is due to factors that reflect the different priorities of the two pilot groups at the point where decisions had to be made. If we chose to deconstruct the contracts, I think you'd see a complimentary blend of goodies.

Well it seems that part of your priority was to keep your DB, should you take the equivalent % of pay increase that the DAL pilots will get through this merger because you have a DB and therfore get paid 10%-15% less than a DAL pilot because of the priorities you chose?

I don't think that's right.

However none of the goodies you got to keep are transferable to Delta pilots. Our contractual goodies are transferable to NWA pilots. You wanted your DB above all else, you got it.

You're speculating. Since a list integration with these demographics has never been taken to an arbitrator, speculation on exactly HOW an arbitrator would weigh the factors is pure bar talk.

I think the AAA pilots brought significantly more disparity in demographics and near term retirements to their merger than anything NWA brings. Next time you're at the bar and run into a AAA pilot ask him how much consideration they got for it. in arbitration.

The biggest selling point to settling this like adults is because both sides would lose control of this issue as soon as it goes to arbitration!

It seems that's the direction it will go. Far more on the line for your folks.

We can influence the result as long as we are in control. Sending it to an arbitrator is to give up ANY control over the outcome.

Tell that to your merger committee. You simply are not going to get better than relative seniority. This isn't a used car lot where walking away will get you much.

It also signals to the world that pilots are petulant morons. (Like THAT'S a surprise!)

That's true. We fought to get a place at the table and we're stuck arguing over who brings what instead of looking at where you are on your list and keeping you there.

The entire point of a relative integration is to avoid the bickering. For every issue you think is important and near and dear to you, we have a counter point. The net result of that type of bickering is arbitration and no up front benefits today versus potential benefits a decade from now. But like you said, you're use to arbitration and you're comfortable there so old habits die hard.

I don't share your hope. I hope it happens. I think the opportunity is unprecedented.

I think the opportunity is being squandered by a team that went in with the motivation to get the best deal they could for their team and not the fairest deal for all.

Did you really expect your team to negotiate a fair list integration when they have shown time and time again an inability to negotiate. How many arbitrations was it?

I also think there is a place on the combined list for each pilot that would result in everybody being a little p!ssed. Sadly, that's probably the "fairest" option.

I think we are there my friend and the chances of it getting any better in arbitration for your team is minimal. JMHO.

I also think it's lame to think that guys as sharp as your leadership would open with a "final offer". They can move. We can move. The deal can get done.

We have a sharp team they came in with a reasonable proposal and no desire to load up the best deal for their guys. I think you are mistaken that there is much if any wiggle room. I don't see the offer getting any better and therefore I don't see a transaction agreement in our future. Whether or not there is a merger down the road without our input is TBD.

Then we'll crush American, United, USAirways, and Continental like baby harp seals!


[Note: Reason #1 why I haven't been named Emperor of All] :nuts:

Occam, I respect your opinion, but not your optimism that there is some wiggle room and that we'll meet you half way on this. There was an incredible amount of good work done by both sides which unfortunately will most likely never bear fruit.

This entire transaction agreement was an "option" for both pilot groups. Unfortunately there was no agreement reached on SLI. There probably was very little likelihhod of an agreement given the past paractices of your committee. They are much more comfortable handing it over to an arbitrator than taking ownership of the product.

Without an agreement on SLI buy default here is no transaction agreement and therfore we have all opted out of this process.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think you are on to something. What is the track record of the team sent to the table? 26 arbitrations and 0 (zero) agreements, since the DOH SLI under Roberts. Am I mistaken? Might as well send Genghis Kahn to the table.

1. Genghis Khan was unavailable. The RJDC still has him on retainer.
2. Regardless of how you or I feel about the composition of either team, they are the one's engaged.
3. If you're trying to score points here on the issue of how I personally feel about the individuals we sent to work this out...you win! Feel better? Doesn't put us any closer to getting this done...but you should feel better, so there's that.

As you pointed out, this was not a negotiating team and from most accounts, they were not prepared.

You're drifting here. It doesn't matter how prepared anybody was. The current tense of the verb matters: "is" matters! The process has not concluded, and both teams have had plenty of time to get up-to-speed.

Since this is a negotiation at this point, let's go back to the way it works: You move. We move. Deal gets done.

Do not underestimate the ability of the Delta pilots to prepare and present an arbitration. The skills are fairly elementary and 90% of success is doing your homework and coming prepared.

With 100% likelihood that you can't control the outcome!

Define "advance." By the posts by NWA pilots on this board "advance" means the ability to increase seniority against their peers at Delta, or at a minimum increase % seniority standing as NWA pilots retire.

I have on good authority that the NWA pilots on this board aren't the one's defining the term at the table. Luckily, same goes for the DAL guys here. This is hardly the Algonquin Round Table.

"Advance", for the sake of our discussion, is movement up the list...not necessarily movement onto bigger equipment.

I'm willing to put my fellow Red Tails in a headlock and explain to them that whining about "not being able to hold a good widebody schedule!" is not the same as "I'll never hold a widebody capt job at all! Are you willing to grab your double-breasted brothers and explain to them that a list you "like" might mean is doesn't happen?

I think this is an erroneous definition. What about moving from a DC-9 to a widebody category, is that advancement?

Not necessarily. If the flying expands while you stay static, you didn't advance. The wave covered you! I'm actually counting on that happening! But then, I'm a hopeless optimist. If the opportunity to find one's self on a higher paying piece of equipment is dependent upon "fate", "luck", or "kismet"...we have a problem. NWA pilots on the bottom half of our list would like to know they aren't being mathematically blocked from advancement.

(757&767 are both widebodies and paid as such at Delta).

757's a widebody?

Got it!

If so, then please go back and readjust claims I've read here regarding the ratio of "widebody" to "narowbody" a/c a the two carriers.

For the record, your airline flies the B757 composite with the B767. That doesn't, surprisingly enough, cause the aircraft to magically grow another aisle, or earn a "Heavy" callsign.

How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Just cuz you call it a leg don't make it a leg.

You can not just look at % seniority, you have to also consider what that % seniority will get you career wise.

Correct!! :beer:

Should a pilot viewing this merger be forced to count on future GROWTH to determine his access to bigger jets....or the "minus" key on his calculator?

That is changing quick with the new 777's that require dual crews for the flying that they will be doing

64 additional widebody capt jobs?

Yes...that is "change".

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam, I respect your opinion, but not your optimism that there is some wiggle room and that we'll meet you half way on this. There was an incredible amount of good work done by both sides which unfortunately will most likely never bear fruit.

Pity, cuz it doesn't look like "halfway" is what it would take. Probably only a third of the way would do it. If it's a "bridge too far", then we'll always have something to chat about on the hotel vans: Was it a Lone Red Tail that killed the deal? Or was it a Double-Breaster on the Grassy Knoll?

Concur on the good work done so far! Both Contract Teams should be proud of what they did!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam:

On most points, we agree. On other points, we might just be talking past each other. If you and I can agree, you'd think that our Rep's would have a pretty good shot at reaching consensus.

Actually there were 104 Captain slots on the most recent AE with another due out in May. I think there were 55 Widebody slots on that one, but I'll have to go check to be sure. What I can be more sure of is that there will be around 100 new widebody Captain slots just for the confirmed 777 deliveries through 09. We just finished staffing somewhere near 105 new 767 and ER slots for the 17 757's that came from American. DAL's last AE had over 500 openings. There is more to the picture than retirements.

If Delta's contract decided the MD88 was a wide body and paid pilots 777 rates to fly it, I'd claim it as a heavy - sure . In fact, getting your 757's to the property would make more "wide bodies" since it is a common category at Delta and supposed to remain as such under the deal. I would rather fly a 757 than a 767, but I'd fly a Pietenpol Skycamper if the rates were the same (getting into your penchant for obsure references)

The opportunity you and I will both miss again comes from our growth. NWA + DAL is positioned to employ Delta's Asian route authority that came from PAA.

You are correct to focus on scope which would force the Company to staff a <130 to 150 seat jet at mainline and we should both balance our fears with the most likely future outcome on the off chance that Anderson, ALPA and DALPA are honest in their estimates of the Companies' combined growth.

and again, for emphasis, scope is important. Without the cap I'm not sure that Delta will not sit by and outsource just about everything that doesn't require a 737's performance.

I humbly submit the NWA pilots are too focused on sitting around waiting for 1000 Captains to expire and DAL pilots are too worried about 100 DC-9's and 2 747's getting parked. The retirements of men and equipment are nearly a wash for those at the bottom. For those in the middle, a Captain slot on a 757/767 is a much better career option than a DC9/319 & for everyone a Captain slot on a 797 (or whatever the new Dreamliner tech 737 will be) is better than outsourcing the aircraft off the property.

 

[123]

On "average" if NWA/DAL went DOH (which will never happen) NWA pilots would be 8-10% more senior on the combined list. "hardly a windfall". Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.
quote]

Actually, a DOH integration would bump me (NWA)backwards in relative seniority, growing to a peak of over 9% in approx. 12 years. Is this fair, not sure, possibly, maybe not, the jury is still out.

I am hopeful that both sides can work something out and come to a mutual agreement. I think that a combined DAL/NWA team has the ability to be the top player in the global industry. With additional open skies agreements coming in the future, and increased global trade, we would be a formidible force with significant leverage (both the pilots and the company).

 

[~~~^~~~]

Actually, a DOH integration would bump me (NWA)backwards in relative seniority, growing to a peak of over 9% in approx. 12 years. Is this fair, not sure, possibly, maybe not, the jury is still out.

Again, I don't think you can be sure of that. What about future fleet deliveries and growth? The basic economic model for the industry has been 4% a year.

....and again, what can that relative seniority hold? A 10% guy at Delta can hold block on a ER in NYC.

There is more to this than a linear model. Time to do a little non-linear thinking.

 

[123]

Fins,

I am just looking at it from a "stagnant" point of view. Not assuming any numbers such as growth or "potential retires", only known facts and numbers (this is not even assuming the 787 deliveries or growth from that). Just cold hard facts.

 

[filejw]

Guess I'll go ahead and order that leather jacket.

 

[~~~^~~~]

There's no pleasing you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRtNfb6D3Mc

 

[123]

There's no pleasing you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRtNfb6D3Mc

Nice clip. Were you speaking to me about that? I was just stating some facts and never said if I was for or against.

There is a lot of conjecture on stated on this website, so I just wanted to put some real facts to the issue.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam:

On most points, we agree. On other points, we might just be talking past each other. If you and I can agree, you'd think that our Rep's would have a pretty good shot at reaching consensus.

Agree...on all points. :beer:

Our reps still have a shot at putting this thing together.

 

[FDJ2]

Pity, cuz it doesn't look like "halfway" is what it would take. Probably only a third of the way would do it.

Pity is right. A third of the way is way too far. You are approaching this as if we both entered at the end zone and not at the 48 yard line.

Your committee "showed up to get the best deal they could." Ours came in to get a fair deal for all.

We started at the 48 yard line, your guys started in the end zone. We moved to the fifty, your guys continued with their dance in the end zone. I'm sorry, but moving a third of the way wont work.

Frankly negotiations at this point with a committee that prides itself on arbitration and has never in its long tenure negotiated an agreement is not only a fools play but a waste of time.

I understand that several high ranking members of our MEC wanted the opportunity to address these issues in front of your MEC, but your MEC refused to hear them. Fine. We go our seperate ways.


If it's a "bridge too far", then we'll always have something to chat about on the hotel vans: Was it a Lone Red Tail that killed the deal? Or was it a Double-Breaster on the Grassy Knoll?

It's a "bridge too far" is right. Many outcomes are decided by a fundamental misunderstanding, miscalculation, or a poor choice early on.

When you send a committee with a list of 26 arbitrations and 0 negotiated results do you realistically expect to reach a negotiated outcome. This opportunity had its fate sealed from the beginning.

Concur on the good work done so far! Both Contract Teams should be proud of what they did!

I couldn't agree more. Also special kudos to your negotiating team. From what I hear they were impressive and "harmonized" well with our guys. When you do get to your amendable date you will be well served by your negotiators.

Good luck and no hard feelings I hope. You have a fine airline and much to be proud of.

 

[FDJ2]

Our reps still have a shot at putting this thing together.

That's another thing I admire about you. Your optimism.

Unfortunately on the highway to success there's a big road block that has a perfect record of 26 arbitrations, 0 negotiated outcomes.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Unfortunately on the highway to success there's a big road block that has a perfect record of 26 arbitrations, 0 negotiated outcomes.

Criminy!

Read this next part slowly...and lemme know what part of it you missed before:

Our full MEC reviewed the Merger Committee's actions and position, and endorsed them.

It ain't just the guys at the table. It's the full MEC. You can pin this on a few "speedbumps" if you choose. You'll be wrong, but you can still do it.

A single digit to the right of the decimal point in the formula can fix this. Of course, that means a number of your pilots will probably be upset. They will join a large number of ours who are upset.

Sweet symmetry!

DOESN'T MATTER! (Oops! Sorry. I was anticipating a reply that mentions 26 arbitrations...)