Northwest Pilots explain problems holding up combination talks

[JAM-BRO]

What you guys(DAL) are forgetting is that, even though we at NWA are the smaller airline, with the lower pay, older fleet, yadah, yadah, yadah, we have a lot more control over our future merger options. DAL does not. We are in a position to demand the 'fairest' deal for our pilots. Consolidation is GOING to happen. If we do not merge with DAL, it will be CAL. I want to see DAL try to merge with UAL(We won't let u do it with CAL. We decide who CAL dances with). You will have the same issues over seniority with UAL. DAL/AA will be a sH!tstorm. AAA would be a joke. NWA is about your only option. It will take DAL 20 years to build what we have in Asia alone.

All I can say is good luck to all of us.

 

[General Lee]

What you guys(DAL) are forgetting is that, even though we at NWA are the smaller airline, with the lower pay, older fleet, yadah, yadah, yadah, we have a lot more control over our future merger options. DAL does not. We are in a position to demand the 'fairest' deal for our pilots. Consolidation is GOING to happen. If we do not merge with DAL, it will be CAL. I want to see DAL try to merge with UAL(We won't let u do it with CAL. We decide who CAL dances with). You will have the same issues over seniority with UAL. DAL/AA will be a sH!tstorm. AAA would be a joke. NWA is about your only option. It will take DAL 20 years to build what we have in Asia alone.

All I can say is good luck to all of us.

Oh come on. CAL wants to stay on it's own. United is looking for a dance partner, along with USAir. Delta asked NWA to dance and Steenland agreed. Do you think it will be any easier with CAL? Those pilots will ALSO say NO to your date of hire krap. Nobody will agree to it. I personally think you should try that with USAir. I think those guys have you beat on old pilots. They may get the top 500 in that combo. Enjoy that.

And how long will it take us to build what you have in Asia? 20 years? Really? We really don't need a NRT hub, since our 777s can overfly it now. We have approval now for service to Singapore, New Zealand, and Samoa. Australia just opened up their own skies. We are going to Shanghai later next month, we already go to Seoul, and Tokyo....... I think we could go BACK to Nagoya, Fukuoka, Taipei, and Bangkok if we wanted to (we used to go to all of them...). Ummmm, I think you may be wrong. But, in the meantime, why don't you build up Europe more than 6 cities (AMS, LGW, LHR, CDG, FRA, and DUS), and add some to some other continents, like South America and Africa. Nah, Asia is where it is AT.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Criminy!

Read this next part slowly...and lemme know what part of it you missed before:

Our full MEC reviewed the Merger Committee's actions and position, and endorsed them.

O.k., fine. Plenty of ownership of the road block to go around. Perhaps it's a culture of arbitrations vs negotiations. Whatever it is, it's not working.

Would it have helped to send committee members that had at least one negotiated result in the last two decades versus 26 arbitration? ( I didn't want to let you down by not taking the opportunity to mention that again )

I think a rational person would conclude that it would increase the possibility of a negotiated result.

I know you're optimistic that we'll move past the 50. If you're feeling backed into a corner and looking for a gesture/concession to declare an end to stalled negotiations, I don't see it happening, but this is aviation so anything is possible, but not necessarily probable.

You seem to think that the burden is on us to move this along, it's not.

We're not courting you, this whole thing was just an option for all of us. The option has been rejected.

No sweat, we each go our seperate ways. No need to chase the deal.

Opportunity lost? Maybe.

We might have to revisit this some time in the near future, maybe under different circumstance, or we might not. Time will tell. Until then another day passes.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Wow this stuff is great. Just like AAA/AWA.

 

[dtfl]

Wow this stuff is great. Just like AAA/AWA.

No...because it will most likely be settled prior..and EVERYONE will whine..then EVERYONE will realize their place and life will go on.....AAA/AWA are still having battles in the crew lounges "wif der 'gats and 9 mils"

 

[dtfl]

Do you know how many proposals DALPA has given to NWAALPA? Most people would be SHOCKED at the answer.

.

Folks would be shocked at 2 things.

1- that some (not all) of the MECs had ideas for an SLI that amounted to belief in UFOs

2-that all those proposals you heard about are RUMOR. How many have really been "given"? 1...2....?

 

[JAM-BRO]

Oooops

Do you think it will be any easier with CAL? Those pilots will ALSO say NO to your date of hire krap. Nobody will agree to it.


DOH would work just fine with NWA-CAL. Neither side had a massive exodus of the top senior guys. We have sen lists on both sides that are not an ILLUSION. My point is, we have options as to whom we merge with. DAL does not.


And how long will it take us to build what you have in Asia? 20 years? Really? We really don't need a NRT hub, since our 777s can overfly it now. We have approval now for service to Singapore, New Zealand, and Samoa. Australia just opened up their own skies. We are going to Shanghai later next month, we already go to Seoul, and Tokyo....... I think we could go BACK to Nagoya, Fukuoka, Taipei, and Bangkok if we wanted to (we used to go to all of them...).

We already fly multiple flights those destinations plus a ton more. Not just one a day. Just came back from a 757 NRT trip and flights were packed. Shashing!!!


Nah, Asia is where it is AT.....

We agree on something.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Later

 

[Fly4hire]

Our reps still have a shot at putting this thing together.

I thought it was the Merger Cmte that had the final say on the SLI?

Personally I think conditions and restrictions could solve a lot of the remaining issues regarding relative seniority now and accounting for our retirements, but that the reluctance to move on that is not on our part.

 

[densoo]

Do you think it will be any easier with CAL? Those pilots will ALSO say NO to your date of hire krap. Nobody will agree to it.

Not true! CAL is the Obama of the majors--they always say "yes we can!"* The new CAL MEC Chair** just fired the best negotiator they had (there goes yet another contract). They don't even have a dues checkoff to prepare for a merger. It's cheaper to just say yes. Just ask them to merge, DOH, they'll say "yes we can"--if management asks them to (it's in the Partnership Accord).

*Remarks of Senator Barack Obama - New Hampshire Primary
Tuesday, January 8th, 2008
Nashua, New Hampshire:

For when we have faced down impossible odds; when we've been told that we're not ready, or that we shouldn't try, or that we can't, generations of Americans have responded with a simple creed that sums up the spirit of a people.

Yes we can (be rushed to sign a bankruptcy contract while headed to record profits).

It was a creed written into the founding documents that declared the destiny of a nation.

Yes we can (sign up for an untested, undocumented, unknown PBS bidding system).

It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed a trail toward freedom through the darkest of nights.

Yes we can (give up IRO first class and fly IROs in coach across the Atlantic).

It was sung by immigrants as they struck out from distant shores and pioneers who pushed westward against an unforgiving wilderness.

Yes we can (give away vacation).

It was the call of workers who organized; women who reached for the ballot; a President who chose the moon as our new frontier; and a King who took us to the mountaintop and pointed the way to the Promised Land.

Yes we can to justice and equality. Yes we can (voluntary junior man) to opportunity and prosperity. Yes we can (pick up open time) heal this nation. Yes we can (allow over 60s go fly with seniority) repair this world.

Yes we can (do annually training on our days off).

**This is redundant as the CAL MEC Chair is always new since they keep firing them or forcing them out of office before their term expires. Only one has completed their term in 10 years?

 

[Flopgut]

What you guys(DAL) are forgetting is that, even though we at NWA are the smaller airline, with the lower pay, older fleet, yadah, yadah, yadah, we have a lot more control over our future merger options. DAL does not. We are in a position to demand the 'fairest' deal for our pilots. Consolidation is GOING to happen. If we do not merge with DAL, it will be CAL. I want to see DAL try to merge with UAL(We won't let u do it with CAL. We decide who CAL dances with). You will have the same issues over seniority with UAL. DAL/AA will be a sH!tstorm. AAA would be a joke. NWA is about your only option. It will take DAL 20 years to build what we have in Asia alone.

All I can say is good luck to all of us.

Based on what you just turned down with DAL, I'm pretty sure CAL is even less interested in talking with you. I don't think anybody wants to talk to you. I don't think anybody wants what you bring to the equation. The world is opening up, not closing.

CAL has merged more groups together than any other airline. There is one key to getting this done right: You've got to have something to build on when you're done. You just got done giving the finger to the best chance your airline had.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I thought it was the Merger Cmte that had the final say on the SLI?

Nope. Without a PID, only the MEC will approve/reject the List. Just like the Negotiating Committee works, the Merger Committee will prepare the deal, and MEC will be the group that is accountable.

Personally I think conditions and restrictions could solve a lot of the remaining issues regarding relative seniority now and accounting for our retirements, but that the reluctance to move on that is not on our part.

Dunno. I think the goal is to avoid C&R's ("fences") since they tend to decrease operational flexibility.

We saw it here for about a year or so...then our Crew Planning folks broke the code and figured out how to make it work with very little impact.

 

[Noserider76]

Nope. Without a PID, only the MEC will approve/reject the List. Just like the Negotiating Committee works, the Merger Committee will prepare the deal, and MEC will be the group that is accountable.



Dunno. I think the goal is to avoid C&R's ("fences") since they tend to decrease operational flexibility.

We saw it here for about a year or so...then our Crew Planning folks broke the code and figured out how to make it work with very little impact.

All I can say is that the NWA table position I've very recently heard about is sheer craziness. Nothing within miles of what would be approved by the DL pilot group. Lead negotiator a green book guy with an agenda?

 

[jke406]

*Remarks of Senator Barack Obama - New Hampshire Primary
Tuesday, January 8th, 2008
Nashua, New Hampshire:

Ok, please explain how a no-substance leftist's (plagerized) remarks have anything whatever to do with an airline merger.

 

[densoo]

Ok, please explain how a no-substance leftist's (plagerized) remarks have anything whatever to do with an airline merger.

Yes we can!

 

[Occam's Razor]

All I can say is that the NWA table position I've very recently heard about is sheer craziness. Nothing within miles of what would be approved by the DL pilot group.

I don't doubt that for a second! I'm sure the List you've heard about is "crazy".

But I'm not sure you've seen THE List. I say that because, fact is, even your MEC hasn't seen the List!

So if you have information on the List that even your reps don't have, perhaps the disconnect isn't with the NWA team.

This might be a good time for us to dial it down a notch or two...and let our elected reps and their designated teams do their jobs. We can still blither and wail here like 3-year olds, cuz Hey!...we'rePILOTS! We defy gravity for a living, which naturally makes us geniuses on all other forces of nature.

Lead negotiator a green book guy with an agenda?

No. Lead Negotiator is a Blueguy named John. The Chairman of the Merger Committee is a Green guy named Mike. Don't confuse "negotiating" with "merging". The MEC Chairman is an ex officio member of every committee, and has the responsibility to ensure all the Subject Matter Experts are getting the job done.

 

[Noserider76]

I don't doubt that for a second! I'm sure the List you've heard about is "crazy".

But I'm not sure you've seen THE List. I say that because, fact is, even your MEC hasn't seen the List!

So if you have information on the List that even your reps don't have, perhaps the disconnect isn't with the NWA team.

This might be a good time for us to dial it down a notch or two...and let our elected reps and their designated teams do their jobs. We can still blither and wail here like 3-year olds, cuz Hey!...we'rePILOTS! We defy gravity for a living, which naturally makes us geniuses on all other forces of nature.



No. Lead Negotiator is a Blueguy named John. The Chairman of the Merger Committee is a Green guy named Mike. Don't confuse "negotiating" with "merging". The MEC Chairman is an ex officio member of every committee, and has the responsibility to ensure all the Subject Matter Experts are getting the job done.

No, I haven't seen the list. I just said I had heard the NWA table position. Heard it from people that should know it well. And, OK semantics, but the Chairman of the merger committee is a green book guy with an agenda.

I respect your experience and opinion and I'll take your advice on dialing it down. A little more time in the water might do wonders for my outlook. Take care.

 

[3ds]

Maybe Pardus can help out with all this. After all, they were SO helpful a few months ago when they prematurely suggested a UAL/DAL deal. Maybe this time they could put some money where their mouth was. Not suggesting that anyone's seniority be for sale but some extra cash might bring the parties back to the table.

Hedge fund mgrs, etc. should read some of this 'dialogue' to get an idea for how much we value seniority and see how little pilots care about a big payoff for the fund managers at our expense.