No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[aircombat]

Either way, each one created less need for personnel. When profit margins are razor thing, a few million here and there can make the difference between black and red for a quarter. Most pilot seem to believe there are tens of millions to be svaed here thus making it big deal. All I am saying there isn't as much as pilot seem to believe.

I agree with you 100% on that. The thing is when you are dealing with small margins you had better be sure your math is accurate. The saying goes “close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades”. The only consolation prize on this is a nice thank you from Inc.

Previously growth at the regional level was all over the place. Companies could be awarded contracts for reasons other than being the cheapest. Such as the ability to finance aircraft, keep up with staffing needs, and other benefits an individual company could bring to the table.

Things have changed and we are not an individual company. We are an alter ego airline, and as such we are not competitive and will not grow until we are cheaper than our sister company. PBS isn’t going to come close to making us cheaper than Skywest.

 

[www.]

I agree with you 100% on that. The thing is when you are dealing with small margins you had better be sure your math is accurate. The saying goes “close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades”. The only consolation prize on this is a nice thank you from Inc.

Previously growth at the regional level was all over the place. Companies could be awarded contracts for reasons other than being the cheapest. Such as the ability to finance aircraft, keep up with staffing needs, and other benefits an individual company could bring to the table.

Things have changed and we are not an individual company. We are an alter ego airline, and as such we are not competitive and will not grow until we are cheaper than our sister company. PBS isn’t going to come close to making us cheaper than Skywest.

Why do you find the need to talk about this on this forum instead of talking directly with the other pilots at ASA face to face OR on their ALPA board? The ASA pilots will be the ones voting on it not the members of FI.

 

[OCP]

(In best guy on TV voice) Not only am I a member of FI, but I'm also an ASA pilot.

 

[aircombat]

Why do you find the need to talk about this on this forum instead of talking directly with the other pilots at ASA face to face OR on their ALPA board? The ASA pilots will be the ones voting on it not the members of FI.

I have posted on the ALPA board voicing my concerns about PBS and I do talk to pilots on the line. If you are trying to imply that I am trying to hide who I am, that is simply not the case. I have several reasons why I post on FI more. First you can reach a lot more people. Even people outside our airline who may benefit from our debates. There is only a handful of people who know how to view the ALPA board. ALPA makes it a pain in the but to even find the chat board and it‘s layout is awful. Before this PBS thing I would like to think our union dues were going to more productive things than web development. So it is easier to post on FI.

Nah just kidding I do it because like the avatars.

 

[Tarzan]

Nah just kidding I do it because like the avatars.

Except for Speedtape's.

 

[buscap]

The debate on here has been awesome.

I can't believe the moderators haven't shut it down!!

 

[OCP]

The debate on here has been awesome.

I can't believe the moderators haven't shut it down!!

Well it is one of the few threads that hasn't boiled down to name calling and mud slinging. There are actual valid points and information in this one.... So yeah I too am surprised!

 

[Tarzan]

PBS isn’t going to come close to making us cheaper than Skywest.

Again, it is not just about PBS. It is a myriad of program change or eliminations that will get the costs in line. BTW, do you know how far away from their numbers we are? Not as far as you might guess.

PBS is just part of the puzzle. I have plenty concerns about it but I also believe that if this is shot down, when we vote for a new contract, it won't be as good as we can have it now. However, I know it will be in the next contract. We will have give up a bunch to get what we have now in this LOA. I'd rather enter Sec 6 with this on the books and look for ways to fix what we have worked on so far.

 

[Speedtape]

Again, it is not just about PBS. It is a myriad of program change or eliminations that will get the costs in line. BTW, do you know how far away from their numbers we are? Not as far as you might guess.

PBS is just part of the puzzle. I have plenty concerns about it but I also believe that if this is shot down, when we vote for a new contract, it won't be as good as we can have it now. However, I know it will be in the next contract. We will have give up a bunch to get what we have now in this LOA. I'd rather enter Sec 6 with this on the books and look for ways to fix what we have worked on so far.

Skywest block hour costs are cheaper because:

1. They hired about 1000 more pilots than ASA in a short period of time.
2. They took delivery of more, larger airplanes.
3. They took all the long haul flying resulting in lower seat costs.
4. Skywest MTC costs are much cheaper.

It is not an apples to apples comparison with #1 being the largest reason for cheaper block hour costs.

PS: I guess you don't like avatars of muscular SheHe's.

 

[OCP]

Haven't read it yet, but the actual LOA is on the ASA MEC website now.

 

[aircombat]

Again, it is not just about PBS. It is a myriad of program change or eliminations that will get the costs in line. BTW, do you know how far away from their numbers we are? Not as far as you might guess.

PBS is just part of the puzzle. I have plenty concerns about it but I also believe that if this is shot down, when we vote for a new contract, it won't be as good as we can have it now. However, I know it will be in the next contract. We will have give up a bunch to get what we have now in this LOA. I'd rather enter Sec 6 with this on the books and look for ways to fix what we have worked on so far.

You are right I don’t know the exact numbers. That’s partially why I feel the union is letting us down. If they want us informed they should provide those numbers instead of saying that they don’t have specific figures. If someone has the numbers please post them. If not none of us are really well informed.

We shouldn’t be put in the position to have to guess. But unlike you I’m guessing that the gap is not small and as I pointed out before, we would have to close the gap completely for any hope of growth. Like speedtape pointed out, we are also more expensive in many more areas than just the pilot group. We are a senior airline and it will be nearly impossible to become as cheap as Skywest. Even with the same pay scale and work rules we would still be more expensive. Then you would have to also make all the other departments cheaper as well. How are we going to achieve all of that?

It’s ok to consider this a trial period for PBS before section 6 begins but just don’t think that it will be a short trial period. Unless this is a flawless system it will just be fuel for the company to stall talks. If this LOA passes, expect to have to live with it for at least another 5 years.

 

[buscap]

I could be FOS here, but I happen to believe the St. George boys have no fantasy about making us cheaper than the desert dwellers.

Cheap enough to compete for flying will most likely work for us. The advantages of multiple certificates and pilot group whipsaw outweigh the need to have us try to beat them to the bottom.

If we stay where we are, all bets are off.

Trust me. I want all furloughs back, a freakin raise and better QOL. In that order.

Want, crap and hands. That's how it goes.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Thank you Scott.

P.S.- I still don't buy one nanosecond of your load of crap in recurrent every year.... I can't believe you think we are so retarded.

Just some of you are retarded!!! (The Floozy Conspiracy Theorist)

 

[Tarzan]

You are right I don’t know the exact numbers. That’s partially why I feel the union is letting us down. If they want us informed they should provide those numbers instead of saying that they don’t have specific figures. If someone has the numbers please post them. If not none of us are really well informed.

We shouldn’t be put in the position to have to guess. But unlike you I’m guessing that the gap is not small and as I pointed out before, we would have to close the gap completely for any hope of growth. Like speedtape pointed out, we are also more expensive in many more areas than just the pilot group. We are a senior airline and it will be nearly impossible to become as cheap as Skywest. Even with the same pay scale and work rules we would still be more expensive. Then you would have to also make all the other departments cheaper as well. How are we going to achieve all of that?

It’s ok to consider this a trial period for PBS before section 6 begins but just don’t think that it will be a short trial period. Unless this is a flawless system it will just be fuel for the company to stall talks. If this LOA passes, expect to have to live with it for at least another 5 years.

The guys who do have the numbers are generally bound by confidentiality agrees about the actual costs. I've heard percentage numbers from fairly reputable sources and we aren't that far off. Granted as you SpeedTape have pointed out, we have some issues we can not overcome unless we grow and become less senior. But there has been a serious cutting of costs. Even our guy Leonard got the axe. I hate it for him. The outstations we kept in the latest round had pay cuts imposed. Our MCN base was outsourced. There have been many other programs cut or streamlined. Tutt and his merry band football screwing monkeys like to point at FLT OPS costs but we still bid a rate and that rate encompasses everything not just pilots. I wish I could see the real costs and share them but anyone who has the info would get their peckers caught in a crack over it. Nothing the union or anyone else can do about it.

PBS as a trial period is a nice thought. I have my reservations too but overall, I feel it is a win-win for me when I look at the complete picture. However, I don't see this contract nearly as long as many fear (for good reason). Once the contract becomes amendable 11/2011, if there is no TA it goes immediately to arbitration. The pay rates that we see an extension on are for the additional year extension. We still start talks in May.

 

[Tarzan]

PS: I guess you don't like avatars of muscular SheHe's.

If she had bigger cans, I would give my blessing (not that it means anything :beer.