No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[ASABound]

These are some great points! Good Debate, I agree. As a fellow ASA ALPA member I urge everyone to attend the road shows, do your own research, and get educated on the issue of this PBS system. If you do your own research and get educated on the issues and dont think that the LOA is in the best interest of you and your family then by all means, dont vote for it. You aren't the ones who are not going to screw the pooch. The problem guys / gals (who will mess the vote up, one way or the other) are the ones who will not do the research and will form a biased opinion just based on past experience with our companies mgmt or thier own feelings or hostilities towards ALPA. We all have a right to vote and part of that right is to be responsible voters, i.e. get eduated on the item to be voted on so that one may cast a fair vote for themselves. I will say the one big question I have that continually sticks out at me to give this a thorough assessment is the fact that almost all of our competition (majors, regionals, and even our sister company) have PBS on property. Is that not concerning to anyone? Regardless of what mgmt or ALPA tells me, the INDUSTRY i.e. other ALPA carriers that have PBS is saying that PBS offers a cost savings to mgmt and the shareholders. I'm not saying its the best thing going, however I really think we need to give it an honest and sincere assessment just as you would if you were dispatching to an airport reporting at minimums and minimul fuel on the airplane. Just some points to ponder...

 

[buscap]

Oh poop.

Here comes the "kool-aid" pusher grenades.

But it would be nice if the next post was a debate point as opposed to mudslinging.

 

[aircombat]

These are some great points! Good Debate, I agree. As a fellow ASA ALPA member I urge everyone to attend the road shows, do your own research, and get educated on the issue of this PBS system. If you do your own research and get educated on the issues and dont think that the LOA is in the best interest of you and your family then by all means, dont vote for it. You aren't the ones who are not going to screw the pooch. The problem guys / gals (who will mess the vote up, one way or the other) are the ones who will not do the research and will form a biased opinion just based on past experience with our companies mgmt or thier own feelings or hostilities towards ALPA. We all have a right to vote and part of that right is to be responsible voters, i.e. get eduated on the item to be voted on so that one may cast a fair vote for themselves. I will say the one big question I have that continually sticks out at me to give this a thorough assessment is the fact that almost all of our competition (majors, regionals, and even our sister company) have PBS on property. Is that not concerning to anyone? Regardless of what mgmt or ALPA tells me, the INDUSTRY i.e. other ALPA carriers that have PBS is saying that PBS offers a cost savings to mgmt and the shareholders. I'm not saying its the best thing going, however I really think we need to give it an honest and sincere assessment just as you would if you were dispatching to an airport reporting at minimums and minimul fuel on the airplane. Just some points to ponder...

I know it sounds like I’m a union hater but that’s really not the case. I just know it’s political so I treat it as such. This is one of the few instances were something will benefit a few but at the expense of many. It just so happens that the people who represent us are in that few category. Like I said before, in order to get the junior people to swallow this pill it has been sugar coated with things outside of PBS, that could be obtained without it.

I will read this LOA however I don’t know to what extent I will be able to understand it. This is a completely different system and most of us, including myself, have trouble understanding the language with line biding. To understand how the chips will fall by reading this LOA is impossible. A trial period would have been the only way. Without that we can only assume it will be like everyone has told us. PBS will improve the QOL of the senior and decrease it for the junior, plus create stagnation.

You mention that our sister company is our competition and ask if that is concerning? That should be the most concerning thing for everyone at ASA. Far more concerning than PBS. Unfortunately PBS isn’t going to change anything about that. We will still be much more expensive than them. As I pointed out earlier we will be more expensive than them even if we had the exact same pay scale and work rules. If ALPA really cared about our future they would force a merger. Even if it meant the union would have to fall on the sword. If we wait until their pilot group has representation we will be shrunk to a more manageable size, lose our leverage, and most likely have to settle with a partial staple.

 

[OCP]

Aircombat,

Have you used the Flica videos yet to look at how the system works? It's pretty slick. Everything about it give us as the bidders many more choices to refine just exactly what we want to fly, if we can hold it. You are very against this system yet other than you feel that this will keep the guys on the street longer, what is the down side? You say it will create stagnation. Well that is already here, so that is not true. You say life will be worse for a junior guy. I see nothing but improvements for reserves and the possibility of people who are on reserve now to hold at least some kind of line. You say it will be better for the senior guys. Well yeah, but it is now. Other than maybe a little vacation, what are you losing on this deal?

 

[buscap]

Aircombat,

Have you used the Flica videos yet to look at how the system works? It's pretty slick. Everything about it give us as the bidders many more choices to refine just exactly what we want to fly, if we can hold it. You are very against this system yet other than you feel that this will keep the guys on the street longer, what is the down side? You say it will create stagnation. Well that is already here, so that is not true. You say life will be worse for a junior guy. I see nothing but improvements for reserves and the possibility of people who are on reserve now to hold at least some kind of line. You say it will be better for the senior guys. Well yeah, but it is now. Other than maybe a little vacation, what are you losing on this deal?

Just to prove I finally get it...I strongly disagree, but:

I believe he thinks the PBS LOA is being sold by a MEC whose members and supporters will benefit from most of the system and work rule benefits helping out senior pilots, to the detriment of the juniour pilots and furloughs. He also thinks the token improvements to junior pilot QOL and pay are just that; token bribes to get their yes votes.

I strongly disagree with his point for many reasons, but I am sure glad he finally made it.

Took him long enough though!!!

 

[aircombat]

Aircombat,

Have you used the Flica videos yet to look at how the system works? It's pretty slick. Everything about it give us as the bidders many more choices to refine just exactly what we want to fly, if we can hold it. You are very against this system yet other than you feel that this will keep the guys on the street longer, what is the down side? You say it will create stagnation. Well that is already here, so that is not true. You say life will be worse for a junior guy. I see nothing but improvements for reserves and the possibility of people who are on reserve now to hold at least some kind of line. You say it will be better for the senior guys. Well yeah, but it is now. Other than maybe a little vacation, what are you losing on this deal?

I have watched the videos and read all the slides on flica. Believe it or not I’m not surprised. I think I have a decent grasp how the system works. For the number 1 seniority pilot this will be wonderful. As you go down the seniority line the desirability will exponentially decrease. I think some people believe that holding 4 days on 3 days off is as bad as it can get. Most of the senior guys are going to bid for high block 3,4 days that duty in late and out early. What is that going to leave further down the line? Low block 4 days that will have to be either pushed together leaving only 2 days off or paired with day lines or two days in order to reach the min line value. Working 4 days on 3 days off is better than 5 days on 2 days off. Just because you put a preference into flica doesn’t mean you are going to get it.
You imply that because we have stagnation now nothing else can worsen or prolong the situation. I really don’t know what to say about that. I feel like I deal with a lot of people that just think about today.

 

[buscap]

You imply that because we have stagnation now nothing else can worsen or prolong the situation. I really don’t know what to say about that. I feel like I deal with a lot of people that just think about today.

I think you're a little off on just how the seniority implications will manifest, but even a trial bid won't tell us about that one, being as people learn to bid, things will definitely change. Frankly, I imagine the tech savy guys-senior or junior-having the advantage.

As far as thinking about the future, trying to get competitive without concessions, is definitely future oriented.

Personally, my crystal ball says we're all going to end up competing with a leaner version of Mesa for whatever 70-seat-plus flying is out there in about three years.

There may be an upcoming pilot shortage at the regionals due to hiring, retirements and a lack of bodies in the flight training pipeline, but I don't see it giving us enough leverage to really jack up pay rates and QOL. What it will produce is even more competition down here.

 

[aircombat]

Just to prove I finally get it...I strongly disagree, but:

I believe he thinks the PBS LOA is being sold by a MEC whose members and supporters will benefit from most of the system and work rule benefits helping out senior pilots, to the detriment of the juniour pilots and furloughs. He also thinks the token improvements to junior pilot QOL and pay are just that; token bribes to get their yes votes.

I strongly disagree with his point for many reasons, but I am sure glad he finally made it.

Took him long enough though!!!

Well I have been saying that since page 15. The furloughs are really the only logical answer. How else would they be able to secure what they say is the best deal for us outside of section 6. If the company thought they could force a poor PBS system, and not have to recall furloughs after section 6 talks were done, they would not give us a better system now. I don’t agree but a union member said our only leverage is to strike and I don’t see us threatening a strike for PBS. Our leverage is coming from the company not wanting to recall furloughs. Just connect the dots and that is the only solution. The provided reason of the company wanting growth will not be entertained until you convince me how we are going to become cheaper than Skywest.

 

[aircombat]

I think you're a little off on just how the seniority implications will manifest, but even a trial bid won't tell us about that one, being as people learn to bid, things will definitely change. Frankly, I imagine the tech savy guys-senior or junior-having the advantage.

As far as thinking about the future, trying to get competitive without concessions, is definitely future oriented.

Personally, my crystal ball says we're all going to end up competing with a leaner version of Mesa for whatever 70-seat-plus flying is out there in about three years.

There may be an upcoming pilot shortage at the regionals due to hiring, retirements and a lack of bodies in the flight training pipeline, but I don't see it giving us enough leverage to really jack up pay rates and QOL. What it will produce is even more competition down here.

For one thing Mesa isn’t our number one competition. Skywest is. They will be getting those 4 leftover aircraft and they will be shrinking us to the extent that the no furlough claus allows. PBS is not going to make us cheaper than Skywest.

To say this is without concession depends on were you stand. I think a decrease in QOL is a big concession and we all know that PBS requires less pilots so for the people on the street this is a major concession. I’m sure that the senior pilots at the majors didn’t see relaxing scope as being concessionary. Most of the majors now have half the number of pilots they had since 2000. For those tens of thousands furloughed it was concessionary.

We are always looking for ways to become more “competitive” in order to grow. Unfortunately if you are in this business for QOL or pay that path will not lead you to your goal. I don’t think it’s ever the wrong time to try to raise the bar instead of lower it. If we continue down this path you need to ask yourself, at what point will this career not be worth it. Because that is what it will come to.

If you really want to grow in a market that will have very little growth you will have to get rid of your competition. Skywest is our number one competition. Since the saying goes “if you can’t bet them, join them”, a merger would be our only hope.

 

[buscap]

I guess we see it differently.

I do not see this PBS as lowering the bar, when compared to every other system and contract out there.

As far as a merger, it's not worth losing the union. If we could make it happen and keep the union, I'm all for it.

And I do feel for the furloughs, but any action which forces an overstaffed situation simply will not work. Now, if Skywest hires one pilot while we have folks on the street, that is a different animal which we should do something about.

I believe PBS will make us more competitive without being a concession. On that we clearly disagree.

 

[Quiet Flight]

You're stoned if you accept PBS in ANY form. But do what you wish.

 

[aircombat]

I guess we see it differently.

I do not see this PBS as lowering the bar, when compared to every other system and contract out there.

As far as a merger, it's not worth losing the union. If we could make it happen and keep the union, I'm all for it.

And I do feel for the furloughs, but any action which forces an overstaffed situation simply will not work. Now, if Skywest hires one pilot while we have folks on the street, that is a different animal which we should do something about.

I believe PBS will make us more competitive without being a concession. On that we clearly disagree.

I don’t know why we would have to “lose the union”. Maybe we would have to revote as a combined list. Yes there would be some risk involved for the union. I don’t think we will lose it though. For one thing if we try to force a merger I can only image that if the Skywest pilots have even a peanut sized brain they would immediately seek representation. I guess it wouldn’t have to be ALPA but it probably would be. Unfortunately that would be bad for us, in the sense of losing leverage, however the alternative is worse.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

....but they already have the ability to build the lines in such a manner, but they never have, so what makes you think PBS will inspire them to do so?

A very relevant point. The Company and Union claim that PBS is the only way to get the lines built in an efficient way. Why not just buy the software, run the program with a set of bid preferences according to the contract or whatever settings get the efficiencies desired, and offer the results up as the bid package? Why get the pilots involved at all?
Single engine taxi was "forbidden" in Atlanta until the Company figured out they were wasting a boatload of gas, and concomitantly money. Suddenly, single engine taxi is okay. Nothing matters to the Company except financial issues. If PBS were truly the only way to achieve the construction of efficient lines, they would have implemented the program already.

You rather look at someone building lines on a monthly basis for you rather than you picking which days off or cities you want to go, or not go to, and filtering the type trips or number of legs etc..?

Frankly, yes. The status quo favors the senior, a fine system with years of tradition to commend it. I understand that seniority is everything. So why replace a system that favors the senior with a system that further favors the senior? Why let the senior guys cherry pick the good stuff out?
The Company (theoretically) builds the most efficient lines they can, while honoring the FARs and the contract. They don't have a notion of what a good line is, or a bad line. It is just a line. Each line in the bid package is a Halloween grab bag: some good, and some bad. Why let the senior guys root through all the grab bags picking out all the Twix, leaving nothing but seven year old candied hearts knockoffs with lewd messages manufactured in an eastern European country that doesn't even exist anymore for the junior guys? When the Company builds the lines, at least junior guys have the hope of something tasty in the middle of the line 405 crapwich. Further, I'm not sure how PBS will help the folks stranded on reserve for the foreseeable future.

You're stoned if you accept PBS in ANY form.

I have heard this advice from many, many pilots who loathe PBS. You just can't polish a turd.
[waiting for the But We Got The Best PBS System chorus to begin its din]

 

[OCP]

Poppa Hodax,

What is the bad of having PBS? What will change for the worst for you personally if we got it?

 

[aircombat]

Poppa Hodax,

What is the bad of having PBS? What will change for the worst for you personally if we got it?

Just because you may personally benefit from PBS doesn’t necessarily make it right. Just because you didn’t have to deal with PBS when you were junior doesn’t mean you should step on your pears now that you have something to gain from it. PBS requires less pilots. That is bad for the profession as long as the rule of supply and demand still applies. Your children won’t appreciate you making it harder for them to get a job.

 

[OCP]

Just because you may personally benefit from PBS doesn’t necessarily make it right. Just because you didn’t have to deal with PBS when you were junior doesn’t mean you should step on your pears now that you have something to gain from it. PBS requires less pilots. That is bad for the profession as long as the rule of supply and demand still applies. Your children won’t appreciate you making it harder for them to get a job.

Right but to see all sides I am wanting to see what people bring up as the bad points so I can then investigate my self and see if they are accurate with what is being proposed at ASA.

 

[Tarzan]

Just because you may personally benefit from PBS doesn’t necessarily make it right. Just because you didn’t have to deal with PBS when you were junior doesn’t mean you should step on your pears now that you have something to gain from it. PBS requires less pilots. That is bad for the profession as long as the rule of supply and demand still applies. Your children won’t appreciate you making it harder for them to get a job.

Your type has been around for a long time. I wonder what you'd have been saying when the cotton gin was introduced. Point is, business looks for new ways to do thing efficiently. The union, as much as you believe otherwise, is incapable of stopping business models from changing. You either adapt and do the best you can with the cards you have or you go to the house. PBS is just another manifestation of the changing model.

I think you're being selfish because it will benefit me and you are committed to voting No. Just thinking of yourself because you think ALPA can magically get you everything you want. I do what I can but there is only so much I am willing to risk. Right now, ASA leads the contract carriers in what our contract currently has. Don't bother nit picking either. Some have things that are better but overall when measuring one to another, ours is the top. How the F*** should we squezze more blood from turnip?

Rather silly argument isn't it?

However, let's go with your argument for a second on the "children" comment. How do you propose this company keeps itself a viable option as a contract provider if they don't compete? I think my children would rather have me working now than laid off because the company was downsized dramatically.

 

[aircombat]

How do you propose this company keeps itself a viable option as a contract provider if they don't compete? I think my children would rather have me working now than laid off because the company was downsized dramatically.

There isn't that much money in this gig for the company. Some guys seem to think there will be tens of millions saved. Sorry but it ain't happening.

I’m starting to get confused here. How do you think this is going to make us more competitive if it really isn’t going to save the company that much money? And you still haven’t answered how this is going to make us cheaper than Skywest? Don’t you worry the downsizing is a coming. PBS will just provide a vessel to accelerate it.

 

[aircombat]

Your type has been around for a long time. I wonder what you'd have been saying when the cotton gin was introduced. Point is, business looks for new ways to do thing efficiently. The union, as much as you believe otherwise, is incapable of stopping business models from changing. You either adapt and do the best you can with the cards you have or you go to the house. PBS is just another manifestation of the changing model.

I do understand your argument and it is a valid one however, don't you think that comparing PBS to the industrial revolution is a slight stretch. Remember you yourself said this isn’t going to save the company that much money.

 

[buscap]

The cotton gin lead to an explosion in the slave trade, which at the time was on it's way to dying a slow death.

Very much beside the point, but the analogy was terrible and needed rebuked!!

That said, I believe PBS will make us more competitive when and if more flying becomes available. And the company's claim that it will not save money here and now is hogwash. That't them blowing smoke so we don't try to strong-arm more out of them.

I have nothing against ASA making money.

I simply do not think this LOA is a total slam on the junior pilots, who by the way will not be junior forever. As for the furloughs, the better the company does, the faster they get back. It's that simple.

Anything we do to needlessly cripple our competitiveness simply keeps them on the street longer. There are many measures which could get them all back tomorrow including across the board voluntary 40% paycuts.

Any takers?

Helloooooo?

Bueller?...Bueller?

The question is whether or not this PBS LOA is a good deal for the pilots while helping the company compete?

So far it looks like it is, but I am still waiting on a roadshow.

There are many reasons to vote no, but I really don't think the furloughs and "slamming" the junior pilots are valid points, as this won't screw the furloughs any more than the screwing they are already taking and the junior pilots are helped by it more than they ae harmed, just like the rest of the pilot group.