No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[blesko]

Even a company raped, grievance rife version of our contract is better than most out there. Now let's make it better.

The PBS LOA may do that. Or not.

But judge the PBS on it's own merits or troubles, not some piddly contract enhancements meant to bribe us.

The PBS LOA is about PBS, not fixing everything we don't like about our contract. Leave the fixing of our contract to the next contract and judge PBS on it's own.

Fine but I hope you wont be the first one b*itching at the loopholes that the company WILL find and use to screw us once PBS is put into place. All I'm asking for is for ALPA to uphold what we potentially will vote in, plain and simple. Managerial contractual negotations are only as good as how they are enforced. If the MEC and others stand up and not let the company get away with potential loopholes, we'll all be ok, if not, we're in the same boat we are now, everything that's wrong with the current contract. Except it will be how PBS ruined our lives.

 

[buscap]

Fine but I hope you wont be the first one b*itching at the loopholes that the company WILL find and use to screw us once PBS is put into place. All I'm asking for is for ALPA to uphold what we potentially will vote in, plain and simple. Managerial contractual negotations are only as good as how they are enforced. If the MEC and others stand up and not let the company get away with potential loopholes, we'll all be ok, if not, we're in the same boat we are now, everything that's wrong with the current contract. Except it will be how PBS ruined our lives.

You think ALPA "let's" the company get away with anything?
ALPA is you.
Your grievances.
Your resolve.
Your support.
Your vote.
Your sweat.
Your parking brake.
Your can.
You gets what you gives.

The company which the MEC fights is much deeper pocketed and business savy than a pilot populated MEC. Sure, we could hire more legal gunslingers, but do you have any idea how freakin expensive that is? We complain about covering MEC pay as is.

By the time an MEC has been around long enough to be really good at all this, they've made enough enemies and allies within management and the pilot group to have absolutely everyone hating their guts and suspect of their motivations.

It's politics!!!

And unions are just like government. You get the one you deserve.

Jesus H!!! Read a book.

 

[crj567]

Really? You WANT to be negotiating right now, when the industry is down? This is not the time to be negotiating.

O.K.-
So we just grin and bear that discomfort in our collective posterior? Some deals are so crappy, they need to be killed-no matter how bad the economy may be.

 

[blesko]

You think ALPA "let's" the company get away with anything?
ALPA is you.
Your grievances.
Your resolve.
Your support.
Your vote.
Your sweat.
Your parking brake.
Your can.
You gets what you gives.

The company which the MEC fights is much deeper pocketed and business savy than a pilot populated MEC. Sure, we could hire more legal gunslingers, but do you have any idea how freakin expensive that is? We complain about covering MEC pay as is.

By the time an MEC has been around long enough to be really good at all this, they've made enough enemies and allies within management and the pilot group to have absolutely everyone hating their guts and suspect of their motivations.

It's politics!!!

And unions are just like government. You get the one you deserve.

Jesus H!!! Read a book.

Its me and 1700 others, most of which dont give a damn, so now what? Its all about whats in it for them, not for the greater good and advancement of the company to make life better for the collective and the industry. I've read many books, doing an MBA thesis on these very things, where's you book chief?

 

[Poppa Hodax]

You think ALPA "let's" the company get away with anything?
ALPA is you.
Your grievances.
Your resolve.
Your support.
Your vote.
Your sweat.
Your parking brake.
Your can.
You gets what you gives.

So what are we paying dues for? If the onus is on the line pilots to do what the Union is supposed to be doing, I would rather keep my dues and fund my own trip to Vegas. Or any of the other seaside/located near a golf course destinations to "work".

 

[buscap]

I'm gonna back away from the keyboard on this tangent, and return to the main point about the union as it relates to the PBS LOA.

There is quite a bit of frustration with the perception that ALPA is unwilling or unable to enforce the existing contract, so why should we let the company have this PBS just to have them shoot it full of holes, while the MEC does nothing due to inability or ineffectual grievances.

We have won some grievances. We have lost some grievances. Some of the language turned out to be looser than we thought. Some of the language has proven presciently effective; furlough clause perhaps.

I just don't see that frustration as a justifiable reason to vote NO or YES. That frustration is the result of the adversarial relationship the MEC has with management. Both sides sign contracts and then proceed to work them to their respective advantage. It's not like some business contract in which adherence to the spirit of the contract is necessary, if one has any desire to secure a future contract with the same entity.

Further, the MEC's ability to enforce the contractual language is very much related to the pilot group's resolve during negotiations and later on during grievances. Dues just get us a seat at the table and at times our own dues don't cover the cost of that seat. It takes National's support when things drag out.

There are contractual improvements in the LOA outside the PBS area, but I believe they are irrelevant. We haven't seen the LOA yet, so we can't judge if the language is watertight or rife with "may", "as much as possible" or "shall attempt".

The 60% 4 day restriction sounds airtight, but that's all I know of, so far.

 

[Speedtape]

Weren't there supposed to be a mix of trips as per the contract? Weren't the trips supposed to be front-loaded as per the contract? If I'm correct, this certainly has not been enforced, so why do I have any faith that anything we do further will be enforced as well? I'm not voting yes, or voting no yet as I want to find out the exact language of the TA first, however, ALPA needs to be held accountable for enforcing what they negotioate. The conpany sure as hell won't do it.

What's ALPA saying we're doing this and dammit we're gonna uphold this? I haven't heard one d*mn thing about that yet. Stand behind it and I might be more likely to vote yes.

The last time I looked, there was a "mix" of trips. I saw cdo's, day lines, 2 days, 3 days, and 4 days. What is it you want?

 

[buscap]

The last time I looked, there was a "mix" of trips. I saw cdo's, day lines, 2 days, 3 days, and 4 days. What is it you want?

Dat funneee sheeet!!

 

[Speedtape]

Consider this as well:

Our current contract mentions a "mix of 2, 3, and 4 days, as well as naps and day lines."

-Has the company complied with this stipulation even once month since the contract was signed? I think not. What about "Red Arrow" days? What happened there?

-We are dealing with people who never try to comply with the language of the contract-and we have union people who (for some reason I cannot understand,) spend all their time and resources trying to explain away all the crappy things the company does and wants to do to us.

-PBS is a crappy deal-
-We cannot afford to give away what is left of our QOL for this crappy deal.

You have the mix. By the way, define "mix!"

 

[buscap]

You have the mix. By the way, define "mix!"

C'mon!! You made your point!!

He wants what we all want!! Enough of the particular kind of trip he desires for his seniority to hold!!

Yeah, that's not in the contract!!

He didn't take your bait, but I did, so poo poo to you!!