No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[GeekMaster]

I’m not saying this in not a good PBS system. It probably is a very good PBS. I’m just saying there is no growth right now so take it to section 6 in hopes to get a quick agreement with slight improvements in the language and maybe a bonus check. Or we can gruel it out for many years because the company has no motivation to sign.
They are not going to scrap everything negotiated just because it goes to section 6.

WOW. You really are unfamiliar with section 6.

I don't have another long post in me today to explain it to you, BUT, here's the very basic.

Each side prepares an opener. In that opener, each side puts forth their "dream contract"; more than they KNOW they will ever get. THEN they negotiate to an agreeable middle. They do their best to make that agreeable middle as close to their side as possible.

SKYWEST WILL THROW OUT EVERYTHING NEGOTIATED ON PBS because they KNOW that an impartial mediator will see the reason in their argument regarding the PBS system they already own.

 

[aircombat]

WOW. You really are unfamiliar with section 6.

I don't have another long post in me today to explain it to you, BUT, here's the very basic.

Each side prepares an opener. In that opener, each side puts forth their "dream contract"; more than they KNOW they will ever get. THEN they negotiate to an agreeable middle. They do their best to make that agreeable middle as close to their side as possible.

SKYWEST WILL THROW OUT EVERYTHING NEGOTIATED ON PBS because they KNOW that an impartial mediator will see the reason in their argument regarding the PBS system they already own.

Well then why won’t that happen anyhow in a few months during section 6. You can show the mediator what was already agreed upon. Why would they send something worse to the pilot group just to get voted down a second time? And again what is the chance that the company will wait as long as it would take to go to arbitration?

 

[GeekMaster]

Well then why won’t that happen anyhow in a few months during section 6. You can show the mediator what was already agreed upon. Why would they send something worse to the pilot group just to get voted down a second time? And again what is the chance that the company will wait as long as it would take to go to arbitration?

The short answer to ALL those questions is that the deal that's currently on the table IS a good deal for both parties. You've already acknowledged that yourself a few posts earlier. IT IS the price they feel they can pay and still shop our product out competitively.

Now I will ask YOU a question. WHAT EXACTLY do you feel we should add to the current deal, that you've just acknowledged as probably a good deal, to make it better while at the same time not putting us right back in the uncompetitive boat?

 

[PCL_128]

You can show the mediator what was already agreed upon.

Once you reject a TA, it's no longer "agreed upon."

Why would they send something worse to the pilot group just to get voted down a second time?

You're not listening. They won't be sending anything to the pilot group to get voted down a second time, because they'll be able to stall for 5+ years in Section 6 because you'll have no leverage of a strike. After those 5+ years, you'll end up caving on PBS, probably to terms far less than what you've got in this current PBS TA, because the NMB will make it very clear that you're never getting released as long as you hold out for something better on PBS.

You probably weren't in the industry at the time, but a story from ExpressJet's last contract negotiations may help you understand how this process really works:

Back in 2003, the ExressJet pilots were in Section 6 trying to hammer out a deal. This was before Comair and everyone else took big concessions in bankruptcy, so the old Comair rates were still in effect. So, the ExpressJet pilots wanted to improve upon the Comair contract and "jack up the house." They wanted a mid-seniority Captain to be able to make $100k per year. They got down to almost everything in the contract being finished except for compensation.

What did the NMB say to them about their pay rate demands? This is a direct quote: "Come back to us when you've stopped smoking crack."

Less than a year later, the ExpressJet pilots settled for the pay rates you see in their contract today, which is far below what they were demanding. The moral of the story? You have to play the game, and the NMB makes the rules. What you have in front of you for the PBS TA is the best thing you're going to see, because you're going to get raped in Section 6 if you don't already have a favorable PBS system in place. Don't lose just because you don't know the rules of the game.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

...In fact, it is by far the best PBS letter in the entire airline industry.
[snip]

This is like saying you have the most awesome Yugo in the world. It is still a Yugo.
Again, I haven't spoken to anyone who said that PBS made things better, but a lot said things got worse. Even if the ASA letter is the best in the industry, empirically speaking, PBS still is a bad deal.

 

[buscap]

Ok people!!

Here's one for ya!! Listen up!!! Only gonna type this once!!!

The PBS cat is already out of the bag!!! The turd has already been crapped!!! Genie out of the bottle!!! Can't unscramble eggs...and all that other crap.

And it's all way past the tipping point. We ain't reversing this industry trend. Now we can sit here and fight it...all by our freakin selves...with our high costs and most likely shrinking pot of flying.

Or we can jack the bar up just a little with the best PBS system, contract language and work rules.

You guys need to talk to some folks about the PBS LOA. Not one pilot group out there, regional or mainline, has anything like we are considering. And the reason for that is because most of them got PBS at the point of a spear.

Yeah this ain't great, but we need to take a close look at the opportunity here. This may be our last best chance to control the screwing.

We keep our costs high and I'll bet a brand new pair of mormon long-johns Mr. A will just plain fak us into the trash pile of oblivion.

In no way does that man want us to be the cheapest out there. He is no idiot and knows very much who he is dealing with. But he will do what any sharp businessman would in this situation.

He's got two airlines with very different operational ledgers. Do the math people!! Besides, I believe if approved, the LOA will result in the Flightline system migrating over to the Skywest side, which will raise their costs slightly, much to our benefit.

Read this again. And I'm not nearly as well informed as these other guys.

 

[OCP]

This is like saying you have the most awesome Yugo in the world. It is still a Yugo.
Again, I haven't spoken to anyone who said that PBS made things better, but a lot said things got worse. Even if the ASA letter is the best in the industry, empirically speaking, PBS still is a bad deal.

Funny just 2 days ago I was talking to a Delta guy who said he loved it and it gave him so much more flexibility in his schedule. I even went on to tell him some of the items in our LOA and he was impressed.

 

[GeekMaster]

This is like saying you have the most awesome Yugo in the world. It is still a Yugo.
Again, I haven't spoken to anyone who said that PBS made things better, but a lot said things got worse. Even if the ASA letter is the best in the industry, empirically speaking, PBS still is a bad deal.

Fine....you wanna use that comparison.....right now we're manufacturing Edsels. While we might like them but NO ONE else in the car buying world wants to buy them; not Delta, not United, Not U.S. Air.


Euphemisms aside, THIS IS PBS. Either IT or the eventual death of our airline is coming our way. It's up to us to choose. The wise men among us will choose that which best benefits us. Given the chance to choose the "best" PBS LOA and system out there (Yugo) vs. the eventual death of my Airline (Edsel), I choose the PBS.

I hope others with a more level head agree.

 

[79%N1]

PCL is "schooling" you aircombat. Please pay attention and take a lesson. You sound clueless and juvenille! People here are filling all of your arguments with holes, but you are stubbornly clinging to your position. You opinion is yours, but your arguements make no sense and are based on conjecture, not facts.

 

[aircombat]

PCL is "schooling" you aircombat. Please pay attention and take a lesson. You sound clueless and juvenille! People here are filling all of your arguments with holes, but you are stubbornly clinging to your position. You opinion is yours, but your arguements make no sense and are based on conjecture, not facts.

Whatever. The only thing the union has done is make themselves sound week and hopeless. To say they can’t use PBS to their advantage in section 6 really makes me lose all faith in them. If they are shooting holes in everything I say why can’t they answer the question I have about their statement regarding the company not saving a dime until we grow. In actuality they can and will save money when we shrink through attrition to profitability.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Whatever. The only thing the union has done is make themselves sound week and hopeless. To say they can’t use PBS to their advantage in section 6 really makes me lose all faith in them. If they are shooting holes in everything I say why can’t they answer the question I have about their statement regarding the company not saving a dime until we grow. In actuality they can and will save money when we shrink through attrition to profitability.

You haven't answered the question as to where the "attrition" is going to come from....How are we going to see much attrition in this environment?

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Knock Knock Knock, hello. anybody there?

 

[Poppa Hodax]

....Either IT or the eventual death of our airline is coming our way.
[snip]

I am having a little trouble accepting your supposition that the only possible outcome of not accepting this (and only this) PBS offer is the inevitable, inescapable end of ASA.

 

[GeekMaster]

I am having a little trouble accepting your supposition that the only possible outcome of not accepting this (and only this) PBS offer is the inevitable, inescapable end of ASA.

Accepting "this" offer is wiser because it will be the best one that crosses our table. If we reject it, I suppose that before we let ourselves die, we will accept another offer in the future. It just won't be as good. Even if it's the exact same offer, we will have lost the opportunities that go other directions in the mean time.

 

[asayankee]

You haven't answered the question as to where the "attrition" is going to come from....How are we going to see much attrition in this environment?

and nobody has answered the question of where the growth will be from!!!

 

[Poppa Hodax]

...Either IT or the eventual death of our airline is coming our way. It's up to us to choose.
[snip]

The future is (tautologically) unknown. While I acknowledge that the end of the airline is a possibility, I don't agree that it is even a likely probability. Please PM me if you have some means of knowing otherwise: I have a couple of Super Bowl and lottery questions.

I intend to read the LOA with regard to what the agreement will definitely do to our status quo, not what it might do to our future:
- Does it improve the quality of the scheduling?
- Does it favor only the senior?
- Do we make more money?
- Can I turn one week of vacation into three?
- Any improvements for the Reserves, or are they forgotten again?
Concomitantly, I will pay particular regard to the language. Too many "shoulds" and "will make an efforts", and not enough "wills" and "shalls" is a deal breaker.

 

[aircombat]

and nobody has answered the question of where the growth will be from!!!

Exactly. So I’m not the only one. If you guys haven’t noticed there is no growth right now, just stagnation. There has been more attrition here in the past few years then growth. And that trend will just increase over the next 5 years.

 

[LazyLightnin']

5 Years seems a little drastic.

Plus, there's a couple of positive rumors regarding expansion. Albeit they're rumors and the Vietnam one excluded.

You really think Inc. is not actively pursuing growth?

 

[aircombat]

Accepting "this" offer is wiser because it will be the best one that crosses our table. If we reject it, I suppose that before we let ourselves die, we will accept another offer in the future. It just won't be as good. Even if it's the exact same offer, we will have lost the opportunities that go other directions in the mean time.

I still haven’t gotten a good answer why this will be the best offer and we will get garbage later? The best answer that I have gotten is. “You don’t understand section 6 negotiations“. That’s not an answer. That’s just an intimidation tactic. You guys like to fall for those just as fast as the smoke and mirrors tactics.
I don’t even know why I bother when you guys openly say you don’t care about what this might do to the future just what will you get out of it right now. Again I’m sure that is what the people said when they voted your high paying job away by relaxing scope. I hope you all enjoy the 5+ years of section 6 you are setting yourselves up for nicely.

 

[aircombat]

5 Years seems a little drastic.

Plus, there's a couple of positive rumors regarding expansion. Albeit they're rumors and the Vietnam one excluded.

You really think Inc. is not actively pursuing growth?

I say these things only from past experiences, not just because I like to make things up. Why not 5 years that’s how long the last contract took. PBS was supposed to be our leverage this time. Now Obama is going to be our leverage?
Yes I do think Inc is seeking growth and what makes you think that the growth won’t go to Skywest. Because you saved them a fraction of a percent? We are still going to be more expensive. Furthermore I worked at a regional that was purchased by another. They were shrunk until they were more manageable and then partially stapled. Our lists will merge eventually. What are we waiting for. Skywest to shrink us and get a Union. There goes our leverage for that one as well.