No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[www.]

Losing flying and not getting any new flying is also going to be bad for junior people....I'm about ready to vote no and see how things shake out....

IMO, the company is playing this very smart. They have not come out and said IF you don't do PBS there won't be any new flying and we will shrink ASA. They have allowed the pilot group to make this choice on their own. They have agreed to the majority of our requests. IF the wrong choice is made we have no one to blame but ourselves. Actions and Consequences!

 

[aircombat]

So let's see. After initial open time, on avg, the 200 has 2000 hours open flying under the current system. Under PBS the majority of that flying would be in the pot for pilots to use to build their lines. Do the math 2000/75 hour = approx 26 additional lines of flying which means approx 26 less pilots on RES. How is that bad for the jr pilots?

The handful of extra lines that PBS might create hardly offset the cons. Reserve is temporary. The stagnation created will be wide spread. Those lines, like you said, will be at the most credited to 75hrs., have minimum days off, low block, back to back pairings. I’m worried that these back to back pairings might make this PBS thing bad for many people.

I know that they can’t make 5 day pairings but is there anything that says they can’t work you 5 days with back to back pairings? I know you can have a preference of no back to back trips but for you “junior” people good luck.

I’m afraid that this might also effect the people really hopeful for 3 days. Here is how that scenario works. The company will have a minimum number of three days that they must create. What if half of those 3 days are very low block. Most likely the very senior guys will bid high block 3 days and they will get them. When it comes to the low block 3 days the computer will try to build a line but fall short of the company mandated minimum line credit. It will then see what your preference is for back to back trips. If you say no, guess what, your doing 4 days. Those 3 days will flow down the line until they are paired with day lines or 2 days.

 

[aircombat]

Losing flying and not getting any new flying is also going to be bad for junior people....I'm about ready to vote no and see how things shake out....

If you want to continue spouting this growth rhetoric you will have to explain how we are going to become cheaper than Skywest. It makes absolutely no sense for growth to come to ASA if we are more expensive. We are, and will be more expensive than Skywest. PBS isn’t going to change that. Even if we had the exact same pay scales and work rules as Skywest we would still be more expensive.

We have a lot of simple minded pilots that are convinced that we have had growth in the past several years. It shows just how easily we are deceived. I guess math is not their strong suit and ignorance is bliss.

 

[www.]

The handful of extra lines that PBS might create hardly offset the cons. Reserve is temporary. The stagnation created will be wide spread. Those lines, like you said, will be at the most credited to 75hrs., have minimum days off, low block, back to back pairings. I’m worried that these back to back pairings might make this PBS thing bad for many people.

I know that they can’t make 5 day pairings but is there anything that says they can’t work you 5 days with back to back pairings? I know you can have a preference of no back to back trips but for you “junior” people good luck.

I’m afraid that this might also effect the people really hopeful for 3 days. Here is how that scenario works. The company will have a minimum number of three days that they must create. What if half of those 3 days are very low block. Most likely the very senior guys will bid high block 3 days and they will get them. When it comes to the low block 3 days the computer will try to build a line but fall short of the company mandated minimum line credit. It will then see what your preference is for back to back trips. If you say no, guess what, your doing 4 days. Those 3 days will flow down the line until they are paired with day lines or 2 days.

No different than today. They back to back you today. They can take a 2 day and back it with a day line, 2 day or a 3 day.

You rather look at someone building lines on a monthly basis for you rather than you picking which days off or cities you want to go, or not go to, and filtering the type trips or number of legs etc..?

 

[buscap]

I’m afraid that this might also effect the people really hopeful for 3 days. Here is how that scenario works. The company will have a minimum number of three days that they must create. What if half of those 3 days are very low block. Most likely the very senior guys will bid high block 3 days and they will get them. When it comes to the low block 3 days the computer will try to build a line but fall short of the company mandated minimum line credit. It will then see what your preference is for back to back trips. If you say no, guess what, your doing 4 days. Those 3 days will flow down the line until they are paired with day lines or 2 days.

Good point about the 3 days, but our min day credit already prevents them from building those kind of trips, or at least makes it stupid to do so. That's why all the three days are ball-busters.

 

[aircombat]

Good point about the 3 days, but our min day credit already prevents them from building those kind of trips, or at least makes it stupid to do so. That's why all the three days are ball-busters.

Right now they are because when a 3 day line is built they are usually 3 days on 4 days off. With PBS when those low block 3 days are paired with a 2 day that will totally change the dynamics.

We are really stuck in the mindset of line bidding. I'm affraid that even after reading this LOA most of us will not be able to understand the nearly unlimited ways that we could be taken advantage of. We can't even understand the current contract with line bidding. How are we going to find all of the cons in this LOA. You know that ALPA isn't going to advertise them.

 

[aircombat]

No different than today. They back to back you today. They can take a 2 day and back it with a day line, 2 day or a 3 day.

You rather look at someone building lines on a monthly basis for you rather than you picking which days off or cities you want to go, or not go to, and filtering the type trips or number of legs etc..?

It’s funny how you guys make it sound like everyone is going to get exactly what they want. It’s not going to be much different then now. We get to bid for our days off and trip type. You might have a slightly greater chance of getting a particular day off or destination, however you will be paying for it greatly the rest of the month. 4 days on 3 days off is a lot better than 5 days on 2 days off. The company will still have control over the pairings and that is everything. I hope you commuters enjoy the back to back trips because I foresee many more of those.

 

[USCtrojan]

It’s funny how you guys make it sound like everyone is going to get exactly what they want. It’s not going to be much different then now. We get to bid for our days off and trip type. You might have a slightly greater chance of getting a particular day off or destination, however you will be paying for it greatly the rest of the month. 4 days on 3 days off is a lot better than 5 days on 2 days off. The company will still have control over the pairings and that is everything. I hope you commuters enjoy the back to back trips because I foresee many more of those.

You have one vote. Spend it wisely.

Trojan

 

[OCP]

As for someone on reserve I'd rather have a line of 65hrs and get paid for 75 than a month of reserve being scheduling's b!th and still only get 75hrs of pay. I'll take the junior line that is all that is left over after the senior guys get what they want. It's not like that is any different than if I was holding a junior line.

 

[buscap]

Right now they are because when a 3 day line is built they are usually 3 days on 4 days off. With PBS when those low block 3 days are paired with a 2 day that will totally change the dynamics.

We are really stuck in the mindset of line bidding. I'm affraid that even after reading this LOA most of us will not be able to understand the nearly unlimited ways that we could be taken advantage of. We can't even understand the current contract with line bidding. How are we going to find all of the cons in this LOA. You know that ALPA isn't going to advertise them.

I get your point, but why aren't the lines like that already? There's nothing in the contract preventing it at the current time?

The min day credit still makes it unlikely. The only time the company builds a four day with no productivity is when the need to cover the overnight outweighs the inefficiency of paying the credit.

Your point is valid, but they already have the ability to build the lines in such a manner, but they never have, so what makes you think PBS will inspire them to do so?

I'm not arguing here. I'm just asking?

 

[aircombat]

As for someone on reserve I'd rather have a line of 65hrs and get paid for 75 than a month of reserve being scheduling's b!th and still only get 75hrs of pay. I'll take the junior line that is all that is left over after the senior guys get what they want. It's not like that is any different than if I was holding a junior line.

I’ve been on reserve for years also but I realize that without PBS we will be able to hold a decent line a lot sooner. I don’t know of many lines that are 5 days on 2 days off. With PBS that’s possible. And leftovers is what you will get. For many years after you would have regularly held a decent line. Try to look past the possible short term gain and look to the future.

 

[OCP]

I’ve been on reserve for years also but I realize that without PBS we will be able to hold a decent line a lot sooner. I don’t know of many lines that are 5 days on 2 days off. With PBS that’s possible. And leftovers is what you will get. For many years after you would have regularly held a decent line. Try to look past the possible short term gain and look to the future.

I am. Likely we won't see a down turn again like this for quite a while and I hope I'm not here to deal with it. But someone in the future will be here and may have to sit reserve for years. They will benefit from the improvements we make today.
And like was said earlier. The company can make 5 on 1 off right now if they want. He!! they can make 6 on 1 off if it fits duty times, but they don't. So what is the difference that makes you think PBS will make them do that?

 

[aircombat]

I get your point, but why aren't the lines like that already? There's nothing in the contract preventing it at the current time?

The min day credit still makes it unlikely. The only time the company builds a four day with no productivity is when the need to cover the overnight outweighs the inefficiency of paying the credit.

Your point is valid, but they already have the ability to build the lines in such a manner, but they never have, so what makes you think PBS will inspire them to do so?

I'm not arguing here. I'm just asking?

That is a good question and I am also not really trying to argue with people, just trying to get my own questions answered and to get some people to think about the future.

We all know that the company wants PBS because it requires less pilots and they will save a small amount. It will be a balancing act between min day, line credit, reserve staffing, ect…. I’m not pretending to predict exactly what will happen. Just what could happen.

One way to reduce staffing is by making us more available by having pilots standing around to fill possible voids. The reason that it’s not so noticeable now is because the inefficient pairings are placed in lines with more efficient pairings. With PBS the senior guys will cherry pick the high credit pairings and all that will be left is the low block pairings. In order to reach the minimum line value you will have the minimum number of days off.

From hearing a little of what people want, no integration, more 3 days. I’m assuming that people want more days off. PBS might do the exact opposite. Everyone knows that PBS allows the company to do the same amount of work with less people. How are we going to do that with more days off and less reserve staffing?

 

[aircombat]

I am. Likely we won't see a down turn again like this for quite a while and I hope I'm not here to deal with it. But someone in the future will be here and may have to sit reserve for years. They will benefit from the improvements we make today.

Well if you want to think into the future. PBS requires less pilots. I think that the future pilots would rather be a reserve FO than unemployed. Or some senior FOs be a reserve captain than a line holding FO.

 

[www.]

It’s funny how you guys make it sound like everyone is going to get exactly what they want. It’s not going to be much different then now. We get to bid for our days off and trip type. You might have a slightly greater chance of getting a particular day off or destination, however you will be paying for it greatly the rest of the month. 4 days on 3 days off is a lot better than 5 days on 2 days off. The company will still have control over the pairings and that is everything. I hope you commuters enjoy the back to back trips because I foresee many more of those.

Ladies and gents I think we have a NO vote...let's move on to other business.

 

[www.]

That is a good question and I am also not really trying to argue with people, just trying to get my own questions answered and to get some people to think about the future.

We all know that the company wants PBS because it requires less pilots and they will save a small amount. It will be a balancing act between min day, line credit, reserve staffing, ect…. I’m not pretending to predict exactly what will happen. Just what could happen.

One way to reduce staffing is by making us more available by having pilots standing around to fill possible voids. The reason that it’s not so noticeable now is because the inefficient pairings are placed in lines with more efficient pairings. With PBS the senior guys will cherry pick the high credit pairings and all that will be left is the low block pairings. In order to reach the minimum line value you will have the minimum number of days off.

From hearing a little of what people want, no integration, more 3 days. I’m assuming that people want more days off. PBS might do the exact opposite. Everyone knows that PBS allows the company to do the same amount of work with less people. How are we going to do that with more days off and less reserve staffing?

If you have questions why not go to a roadshow and ask the people that are involved.

 

[aircombat]

If you have questions why not go to a roadshow and ask the people that are involved.

I am planning on attending the road shows. I’m not confident that I will get my questions answered. If you have been to one before you know that it is mostly the union guys on the soap box. What would you expect they are running the show. They are sales men and good ones at that. Since they are completely bias, all the positives will be addressed and highlighted while the negatives will have to be solicited and then promptly downplayed by a union member. If they wanted us to have an accurate view of what this LOA could involve they would assign a union member to represent the negative side of PBS and then have a productive debate. This is going to be like attending one of those timeshare sales pitches.

 

[buscap]

Dude, I would like to know why you think the union is running it up our arses on this. I just don't see their motivation or reward for doing so?

If it's just a matter of their seniority, well the current system already favors them on that and by your logic the PBS system would jeopardize their seniority based QOL.

Yes, they negotiated this.

But this was not a contract negotiation. With no NMB involvement they have no reason to jump though hoops and demonstrate their willingness to compromise by slapping lipstick on the pig, knowing full well and perhaps hoping we will vote no.

Obviously they are in favor of the LOA, or we wouldn't be looking at it. But I have not detected any deception on their part. When I've asked questions, they've been answered. Even when the answer was not pro-PBS.

I'm cool with you voting no, but the ALPA slam is misplaced.

 

[aircombat]

Dude, I would like to know why you think the union is running it up our arses on this. I just don't see their motivation or reward for doing so?

If it's just a matter of their seniority, well the current system already favors them on that and by your logic the PBS system would jeopardize their seniority based QOL.

Yes, they negotiated this.

But this was not a contract negotiation. With no NMB involvement they have no reason to jump though hoops and demonstrate their willingness to compromise by slapping lipstick on the pig, knowing full well and perhaps hoping we will vote no.

Obviously they are in favor of the LOA, or we wouldn't be looking at it. But I have not detected any deception on their part. When I've asked questions, they've been answered. Even when the answer was not pro-PBS.

I'm cool with you voting no, but the ALPA slam is misplaced.

I’m not sure what I said that made you think I don’t believe the very senior people will have a better schedule. If it is about the low block three days possibly being paired with other pairings, I wouldn’t really consider those people as being “senior”. It’s clear the senior pilots will get slightly better schedules and that is a big motivator for the union to support it. Many things that ALPA has supported in the past has been good for the senior pilots but at the peril of the future pilots and the profession. I don’t think that should be surprising. The representatives are senior, most of their friends are also, and I imagine senior pilots vote more. As I’ve said earlier I also think a big motivator for this LOA right now is because the company doesn’t want to call the furloughees back (maybe years from now). So the union could have used that in order to secure a "better" PBS deal outside of section 6.

And if you haven’t seen any deception you haven’t been looking. The growth thing is deception. Saying PBS requires less people but there will be no furloughs or downgrades is in my book deceptive, they have already done them. Saying the company can not save a dime with PBS until we grow is just a flat out lie.

 

[buscap]

And if you haven’t seen any deception you haven’t been looking. The growth thing is deception. Saying PBS requires less people but there will be no furloughs or downgrades is in my book deceptive, they have already done them. Saying the company can not save a dime with PBS until we grow is just a flat out lie.

Ok then.

Well put, but I just don't see it that way.

Thanks for hanging in there on the the debate.

This is big and it does need to be properly flogged.

 

[ASABound]

These are some great points! Good Debate, I agree. As a fellow ASA ALPA member I urge everyone to attend the road shows, do your own research, and get educated on the issue of this PBS system. If you do your own research and get educated on the issues and dont think that the LOA is in the best interest of you and your family then by all means, dont vote for it. You aren't the ones who are not going to screw the pooch. The problem guys / gals (who will mess the vote up, one way or the other) are the ones who will not do the research and will form a biased opinion just based on past experience with our companies mgmt or thier own feelings or hostilities towards ALPA. We all have a right to vote and part of that right is to be responsible voters, i.e. get eduated on the item to be voted on so that one may cast a fair vote for themselves. I will say the one big question I have that continually sticks out at me to give this a thorough assessment is the fact that almost all of our competition (majors, regionals, and even our sister company) have PBS on property. Is that not concerning to anyone? Regardless of what mgmt or ALPA tells me, the INDUSTRY i.e. other ALPA carriers that have PBS is saying that PBS offers a cost savings to mgmt and the shareholders. I'm not saying its the best thing going, however I really think we need to give it an honest and sincere assessment just as you would if you were dispatching to an airport reporting at minimums and minimul fuel on the airplane. Just some points to ponder...

 

[buscap]

Oh poop.

Here comes the "kool-aid" pusher grenades.

But it would be nice if the next post was a debate point as opposed to mudslinging.

 

[aircombat]

These are some great points! Good Debate, I agree. As a fellow ASA ALPA member I urge everyone to attend the road shows, do your own research, and get educated on the issue of this PBS system. If you do your own research and get educated on the issues and dont think that the LOA is in the best interest of you and your family then by all means, dont vote for it. You aren't the ones who are not going to screw the pooch. The problem guys / gals (who will mess the vote up, one way or the other) are the ones who will not do the research and will form a biased opinion just based on past experience with our companies mgmt or thier own feelings or hostilities towards ALPA. We all have a right to vote and part of that right is to be responsible voters, i.e. get eduated on the item to be voted on so that one may cast a fair vote for themselves. I will say the one big question I have that continually sticks out at me to give this a thorough assessment is the fact that almost all of our competition (majors, regionals, and even our sister company) have PBS on property. Is that not concerning to anyone? Regardless of what mgmt or ALPA tells me, the INDUSTRY i.e. other ALPA carriers that have PBS is saying that PBS offers a cost savings to mgmt and the shareholders. I'm not saying its the best thing going, however I really think we need to give it an honest and sincere assessment just as you would if you were dispatching to an airport reporting at minimums and minimul fuel on the airplane. Just some points to ponder...

I know it sounds like I’m a union hater but that’s really not the case. I just know it’s political so I treat it as such. This is one of the few instances were something will benefit a few but at the expense of many. It just so happens that the people who represent us are in that few category. Like I said before, in order to get the junior people to swallow this pill it has been sugar coated with things outside of PBS, that could be obtained without it.

I will read this LOA however I don’t know to what extent I will be able to understand it. This is a completely different system and most of us, including myself, have trouble understanding the language with line biding. To understand how the chips will fall by reading this LOA is impossible. A trial period would have been the only way. Without that we can only assume it will be like everyone has told us. PBS will improve the QOL of the senior and decrease it for the junior, plus create stagnation.

You mention that our sister company is our competition and ask if that is concerning? That should be the most concerning thing for everyone at ASA. Far more concerning than PBS. Unfortunately PBS isn’t going to change anything about that. We will still be much more expensive than them. As I pointed out earlier we will be more expensive than them even if we had the exact same pay scale and work rules. If ALPA really cared about our future they would force a merger. Even if it meant the union would have to fall on the sword. If we wait until their pilot group has representation we will be shrunk to a more manageable size, lose our leverage, and most likely have to settle with a partial staple.

 

[OCP]

Aircombat,

Have you used the Flica videos yet to look at how the system works? It's pretty slick. Everything about it give us as the bidders many more choices to refine just exactly what we want to fly, if we can hold it. You are very against this system yet other than you feel that this will keep the guys on the street longer, what is the down side? You say it will create stagnation. Well that is already here, so that is not true. You say life will be worse for a junior guy. I see nothing but improvements for reserves and the possibility of people who are on reserve now to hold at least some kind of line. You say it will be better for the senior guys. Well yeah, but it is now. Other than maybe a little vacation, what are you losing on this deal?

 

[buscap]

Aircombat,

Have you used the Flica videos yet to look at how the system works? It's pretty slick. Everything about it give us as the bidders many more choices to refine just exactly what we want to fly, if we can hold it. You are very against this system yet other than you feel that this will keep the guys on the street longer, what is the down side? You say it will create stagnation. Well that is already here, so that is not true. You say life will be worse for a junior guy. I see nothing but improvements for reserves and the possibility of people who are on reserve now to hold at least some kind of line. You say it will be better for the senior guys. Well yeah, but it is now. Other than maybe a little vacation, what are you losing on this deal?

Just to prove I finally get it...I strongly disagree, but:

I believe he thinks the PBS LOA is being sold by a MEC whose members and supporters will benefit from most of the system and work rule benefits helping out senior pilots, to the detriment of the juniour pilots and furloughs. He also thinks the token improvements to junior pilot QOL and pay are just that; token bribes to get their yes votes.

I strongly disagree with his point for many reasons, but I am sure glad he finally made it.

Took him long enough though!!!

 

[aircombat]

Aircombat,

Have you used the Flica videos yet to look at how the system works? It's pretty slick. Everything about it give us as the bidders many more choices to refine just exactly what we want to fly, if we can hold it. You are very against this system yet other than you feel that this will keep the guys on the street longer, what is the down side? You say it will create stagnation. Well that is already here, so that is not true. You say life will be worse for a junior guy. I see nothing but improvements for reserves and the possibility of people who are on reserve now to hold at least some kind of line. You say it will be better for the senior guys. Well yeah, but it is now. Other than maybe a little vacation, what are you losing on this deal?

I have watched the videos and read all the slides on flica. Believe it or not I’m not surprised. I think I have a decent grasp how the system works. For the number 1 seniority pilot this will be wonderful. As you go down the seniority line the desirability will exponentially decrease. I think some people believe that holding 4 days on 3 days off is as bad as it can get. Most of the senior guys are going to bid for high block 3,4 days that duty in late and out early. What is that going to leave further down the line? Low block 4 days that will have to be either pushed together leaving only 2 days off or paired with day lines or two days in order to reach the min line value. Working 4 days on 3 days off is better than 5 days on 2 days off. Just because you put a preference into flica doesn’t mean you are going to get it.
You imply that because we have stagnation now nothing else can worsen or prolong the situation. I really don’t know what to say about that. I feel like I deal with a lot of people that just think about today.

 

[buscap]

You imply that because we have stagnation now nothing else can worsen or prolong the situation. I really don’t know what to say about that. I feel like I deal with a lot of people that just think about today.

I think you're a little off on just how the seniority implications will manifest, but even a trial bid won't tell us about that one, being as people learn to bid, things will definitely change. Frankly, I imagine the tech savy guys-senior or junior-having the advantage.

As far as thinking about the future, trying to get competitive without concessions, is definitely future oriented.

Personally, my crystal ball says we're all going to end up competing with a leaner version of Mesa for whatever 70-seat-plus flying is out there in about three years.

There may be an upcoming pilot shortage at the regionals due to hiring, retirements and a lack of bodies in the flight training pipeline, but I don't see it giving us enough leverage to really jack up pay rates and QOL. What it will produce is even more competition down here.

 

[aircombat]

Just to prove I finally get it...I strongly disagree, but:

I believe he thinks the PBS LOA is being sold by a MEC whose members and supporters will benefit from most of the system and work rule benefits helping out senior pilots, to the detriment of the juniour pilots and furloughs. He also thinks the token improvements to junior pilot QOL and pay are just that; token bribes to get their yes votes.

I strongly disagree with his point for many reasons, but I am sure glad he finally made it.

Took him long enough though!!!

Well I have been saying that since page 15. The furloughs are really the only logical answer. How else would they be able to secure what they say is the best deal for us outside of section 6. If the company thought they could force a poor PBS system, and not have to recall furloughs after section 6 talks were done, they would not give us a better system now. I don’t agree but a union member said our only leverage is to strike and I don’t see us threatening a strike for PBS. Our leverage is coming from the company not wanting to recall furloughs. Just connect the dots and that is the only solution. The provided reason of the company wanting growth will not be entertained until you convince me how we are going to become cheaper than Skywest.

 

[aircombat]

I think you're a little off on just how the seniority implications will manifest, but even a trial bid won't tell us about that one, being as people learn to bid, things will definitely change. Frankly, I imagine the tech savy guys-senior or junior-having the advantage.

As far as thinking about the future, trying to get competitive without concessions, is definitely future oriented.

Personally, my crystal ball says we're all going to end up competing with a leaner version of Mesa for whatever 70-seat-plus flying is out there in about three years.

There may be an upcoming pilot shortage at the regionals due to hiring, retirements and a lack of bodies in the flight training pipeline, but I don't see it giving us enough leverage to really jack up pay rates and QOL. What it will produce is even more competition down here.

For one thing Mesa isn’t our number one competition. Skywest is. They will be getting those 4 leftover aircraft and they will be shrinking us to the extent that the no furlough claus allows. PBS is not going to make us cheaper than Skywest.

To say this is without concession depends on were you stand. I think a decrease in QOL is a big concession and we all know that PBS requires less pilots so for the people on the street this is a major concession. I’m sure that the senior pilots at the majors didn’t see relaxing scope as being concessionary. Most of the majors now have half the number of pilots they had since 2000. For those tens of thousands furloughed it was concessionary.

We are always looking for ways to become more “competitive” in order to grow. Unfortunately if you are in this business for QOL or pay that path will not lead you to your goal. I don’t think it’s ever the wrong time to try to raise the bar instead of lower it. If we continue down this path you need to ask yourself, at what point will this career not be worth it. Because that is what it will come to.

If you really want to grow in a market that will have very little growth you will have to get rid of your competition. Skywest is our number one competition. Since the saying goes “if you can’t bet them, join them”, a merger would be our only hope.

 

[buscap]

I guess we see it differently.

I do not see this PBS as lowering the bar, when compared to every other system and contract out there.

As far as a merger, it's not worth losing the union. If we could make it happen and keep the union, I'm all for it.

And I do feel for the furloughs, but any action which forces an overstaffed situation simply will not work. Now, if Skywest hires one pilot while we have folks on the street, that is a different animal which we should do something about.

I believe PBS will make us more competitive without being a concession. On that we clearly disagree.