No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[atlcrjdriver]

If you are an FO and voting yes on this TA I hope you like the stagnation. Growth may or may not come, I’m leaning toward not come. PBS isn’t going to change that. The one thing that is certain is that we will require about 10% less captains so it will be that much longer for upgrade and we would have to grow that much just to break even.

The one pt you made that I agree w/ is that PBS won't change the stagnation much at all. What you fail to realize is how more pilots come on line. It is by either growth or attrition. With nobody hiring and retirements being nil attrition is out which leaves growth. If PBS will help make us more competative (stimulate growth) and improve QOL (ability to break up four day trips, more ctrl over skd, ability to avoid certain Cpts, etc)while they are an FO then why say no?

 

[Poppa Hodax]

[snip] ...the union and company proactively work together to try to a get a win-win for the pilots and company.

I harbor no illusions that the company has any interest in a win situation for the pilots. They are in business to make money, not friends.
In talking to a number of pilots at airlines with PBS*, the language of the agreement is just as important as the system used. Our union is too weak to get the language tight enough to make the system work as intended. The Company has demonstrated time and again that they follow the letter of the law, not the intent. I do not trust the Union to finally get it right with this change pushed through with all the alacrity, zeal, and determination they failed to show during contract negotiations.
I will wait for the road shows, but I am inclined to vote No because:
1. The existing system favors the senior folks. I see no reason to replace this with a system that further favors the senior.
2. The Company wants PBS very, very, very badly. This can't be good for pilots.
3. The Union can't to be trusted to get adequate language in place to minimize the Company's capacity to subvert PBS to their own benefit.
* - Not one pilot I have spoken with on the matter had anything to say about PBS that didn't involve some variation of "don't do it" and varied profanities.

 

[777forever]

yes I think they will have to call back some people if we vote no. We were understaffed last summer and I believe it will be worse this summer. How can we do that with less pilots. It's not even a debate that PBS will reduce pilot needs. We live in a supply and demand world. We are reducing our demand. Not smart and will cause everything I stated.

If the company calls back pilots for this summer they will have to furlough them again in the fall. Makes no sense to bring the furloughs back for such a short time.

We were busy last summer but not understaffed. Many reserves broke guarantee but not all did. In fact most did not even credit over 90 hrs, let alone block 90hrs. When reserves are all flying 90+hrs, lineholders are being junior manned, and we're on the cusp of cancelling tons flights due to no pilots, then we are understaffed.

And to our colleauge that commented that the company wants PBS very badly and it can't be good for the company I will say this. PBS saves the company money when ASA's flying is increased above the stupidly low level it is now. ASA is actively looking for growth with other carriers. That is very good for us. PBS allows ASA to adjust its bids and sell itself as a cost effective and efficient company.

If we do not work with the company to obtain more flying thing will not only stagnate, but get worse. I assure you, that if the pilot group does not work with the company, the abundance of 4 days will be the least of our worries.

Also, please don't use XJT as a non PBS carrier that got flying. Skywest refuses to bid contracts at a loss.

 

[asayankee]

If the company calls back pilots for this summer they will have to furlough them again in the fall. Makes no sense to bring the furloughs back for such a short time.

We were busy last summer but not understaffed. Many reserves broke guarantee but not all did. In fact most did not even credit over 90 hrs, let alone block 90hrs. When reserves are all flying 90+hrs, lineholders are being junior manned, and we're on the cusp of cancelling tons flights due to no pilots, then we are understaffed.

And to our colleauge that commented that the company wants PBS very badly and it can't be good for the company I will say this. PBS saves the company money when ASA's flying is increased above the stupidly low level it is now. ASA is actively looking for growth with other carriers. That is very good for us. PBS allows ASA to adjust its bids and sell itself as a cost effective and efficient company.

If we do not work with the company to obtain more flying thing will not only stagnate, but get worse. I assure you, that if the pilot group does not work with the company, the abundance of 4 days will be the least of our worries.

Also, please don't use XJT as a non PBS carrier that got flying. Skywest refuses to bid contracts at a loss.

You must be on the 200.....there is a vast difference between the staffing levels/block hours on the 200 per pilot than on the 700/900. We are pretty swamped every month on the larger airframes. It seems the month-to-month variation is almost isolated to the 200 series a/c.

 

[maxcackel]

If the company calls back pilots for this summer they will have to furlough them again in the fall. Makes no sense to bring the furloughs back for such a short time.

We were busy last summer but not understaffed. Many reserves broke guarantee but not all did. In fact most did not even credit over 90 hrs, let alone block 90hrs. When reserves are all flying 90+hrs, lineholders are being junior manned, and we're on the cusp of cancelling tons flights due to no pilots, then we are understaffed.

And to our colleauge that commented that the company wants PBS very badly and it can't be good for the company I will say this. PBS saves the company money when ASA's flying is increased above the stupidly low level it is now. ASA is actively looking for growth with other carriers. That is very good for us. PBS allows ASA to adjust its bids and sell itself as a cost effective and efficient company.

If we do not work with the company to obtain more flying thing will not only stagnate, but get worse. I assure you, that if the pilot group does not work with the company, the abundance of 4 days will be the least of our worries.

Also, please don't use XJT as a non PBS carrier that got flying. Skywest refuses to bid contracts at a loss.

You don't know that they bid it at a loss, you did not see the contract. You may want to believe rumors but they are telling their own people that it was not at a loss.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

1. The existing system favors the senior folks. I see no reason to replace this with a system that further favors the senior.

Any system put in place will benefit the senior most people. The question is will this system improve my QOL as a mid-junior cpt? From what I have seen thus far the answer is yes.

2. The Company wants PBS very, very, very badly. This can't be good for pilots.

As stated, the company wants PBS b/c it will save them money. The pilots can gain w/ improvments in QOL. We all gain from being more cost competative and the potential for more business and growth.

3. The Union can't to be trusted to get adequate language in place to minimize the Company's capacity to subvert PBS to their own benefit.

Once the TA has been published ask your reps about any language you deem suspect. It is very hard to make such a statement on contract language that you haven't even seen.

* - Not one pilot I have spoken with on the matter had anything to say about PBS that didn't involve some variation of "don't do it" and varied profanities.

I have talked to many pilots from companies that have PBS and the answers vary. Each PBS system is different based on the software used and the contract language attached to it.

Wait until the TA is published and express your concerns to your reps before you make your decision.

 

[Av8trix616]

My understanding is that both the company and the union have said that there is no cost savings with PBS until we "Grow," and the savings would be from not having to hire (read: bring back furloughs) as soon as they would normally have to.

With the rumor from Delta flying being a 7% Year over year increase for the summer, and ASA's staffing *currently* at 4.5ish crews per airplane (and thin reserve staffing), seems like a vote for PBS just keeps folks on the street. Course, voting to keep folks on the street is a lot less painful than voting to kick them off the property... which is why the company took care of that for us, a mere week before magically coming to a prelim agreement about PBS.

Would we resist furloughing those people if it was part of the PBS agreement? Would furlough protection for those pilots still be part of the negotiation, like it was in the beginning? 4 days went up and productive trips have gone down in the last 8 or so months as well, and PBS is being offered as a method of solving this problem. Ever hear of a store jacking up the price on an item so they can mark it "30% off!" bringing it down to the original price...?

 

[buscap]

I harbor no illusions that the company has any interest in a win situation for the pilots. They are in business to make money, not friends.
In talking to a number of pilots at airlines with PBS*, the language of the agreement is just as important as the system used. Our union is too weak to get the language tight enough to make the system work as intended. The Company has demonstrated time and again that they follow the letter of the law, not the intent. I do not trust the Union to finally get it right with this change pushed through with all the alacrity, zeal, and determination they failed to show during contract negotiations.
I will wait for the road shows, but I am inclined to vote No because:
1. The existing system favors the senior folks. I see no reason to replace this with a system that further favors the senior.
2. The Company wants PBS very, very, very badly. This can't be good for pilots.
3. The Union can't to be trusted to get adequate language in place to minimize the Company's capacity to subvert PBS to their own benefit.
* - Not one pilot I have spoken with on the matter had anything to say about PBS that didn't involve some variation of "don't do it" and varied profanities.

While I can't argue with your opinion on PBS, I believe you are being a little hard on the union. Please take a moment to count how many areas of our contract are industry leading.

And the letter of the law battle is fought at every airline with varying degrees of success. Even the areas in which the company has won the fight, we are ahead of other carriers.

 

[777forever]

You must be on the 200.....there is a vast difference between the staffing levels/block hours on the 200 per pilot than on the 700/900. We are pretty swamped every month on the larger airframes. It seems the month-to-month variation is almost isolated to the 200 series a/c.

Im on the 700/900 and while I've heard the Captains are pretty swamped the FOs are not. I have yet to credit 90+hrs on reserve since summer.

When they start offering premium pay continuously for both seats then we are in an understaffed condition.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Im on the 700/900 and while I've heard the Captains are pretty swamped the FOs are not. I have yet to credit 90+hrs on reserve since summer.

When they start offering premium pay continuously for both seats then we are in an understaffed condition.

When they're understaffed in both seats...