No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[OCP]

What are all these nay sayers afraid of? What are you going to lose with PBS? The only thing you can say is you think that somehow voting now will bring back the 130 or so on the street. It may, it may not. But the same is with PBS. Isn't it worth the gamble in the long run to possibly get new flying resulting from an ability to compete more effectively? Like has been said before, ASA gets no savings from this deal unless they are able to grow the company with it.

 

[Tarzan]

I don't think you heard me! LESS THAN 1% company savings. I think it's safe to say you haven't been furloughed before.

In a market that sees the lower profit margins, a million here and there makes a difference.

I've lost jobs before. Not in this industry but this isn't my first aviation job either. I've done my share of crappy jobs that required a large amount of sweat and blistered hands. I've done my share of pulling guard in a wet, cold hole at 0300. If you believe I am a slick faced kid with no perspective, you are mistaken. I've had my share of ups and downs. I've seen a job that paid $75K a year evaporate except there were no call backs for that one. So please, don't become sanctimonious as some of us here have borne our share of difficult times.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Ok people!!

Here's one for ya!! Listen up!!! Only gonna type this once!!!

The PBS cat is already out of the bag!!! The turd has already been crapped!!! Genie out of the bottle!!! Can't unscramble eggs...and all that other crap.

And it's all way past the tipping point. We ain't reversing this industry trend. Now we can sit here and fight it...all by our freakin selves...with our high costs and most likely shrinking pot of flying.

Or we can jack the bar up just a little with the best PBS system, contract language and work rules.

You guys need to talk to some folks about the PBS LOA. Not one pilot group out there, regional or mainline, has anything like we are considering. And the reason for that is because most of them got PBS at the point of a spear.

Yeah this ain't great, but we need to take a close look at the opportunity here. This may be our last best chance to control the screwing.

We keep our costs high and I'll bet a brand new pair of mormon long-johns Mr. A will just plain fak us into the trash pile of oblivion.

In no way does that man want us to be the cheapest out there. He is no idiot and knows very much who he is dealing with. But he will do what any sharp businessman would in this situation.

He's got two airlines with very different operational ledgers. Do the math people!! Besides, I believe if approved, the LOA will result in the Flightline system migrating over to the Skywest side, which will raise their costs slightly, much to our benefit.

Ahhhh, the sooner everybody realizes this , the better off we'll all be!
Of course, we'll always have our same old whiners and cry babies!
Everyone knows who they are.

 

[aircombat]

What do we have to lose? Only the sole bargaining chip we have for contract negotiations. For Christmas I’m giving the Union the ability to use PBS in our favor.
I hear people saying that we should vote it in and use these few months until next contract negotiations as a trial period. That is true but that makes it sound like we will have a new contract in a few months. Clearly you don’t remember how long the last round took. There will be flaws. Even if you are one of the few that will read the LOA from start to finish you will not be able to find all the loopholes. The company will find them and then have no motivation to sign a new contract.
In 4 years if I hear you complaining about how long the negotiations are taking I will simply ask you if you voted yes on PBS. If you say yes I will just laugh.

 

[aircombat]

Ahhhh, the sooner everybody realizes this , the better off we'll all be!
Of course, we'll always have our same old whiners and cry babies!
Everyone knows who they are.

I fully agree that PBS is inevitability. Just don’t hand it over on a silver platter. Vote no and let the union use it as leverage for the next contract. And don’t chew your foot off trying to undercut Skywest. Really who is going to win that battle?

 

[buscap]

I'm not a full blown YES voter yet. Waiting on roadshows.

Just trying to give the soap-box NO Voters something to think about here.

If this thing is voted down, I believe it will have to wait for the contract. I'd rather have two wacks at it.

And don't forget, quite a bit of the foot dragging in the last contract was on the union side, waiting for the economy to "improve."

The length of the next contract negotiations will be determined by the pilot group's resolve, manifested thru parking brakes and AFDL entries.

 

[Tarzan]

I fully agree that PBS is inevitability. Just don’t hand it over on a silver platter. Vote no and let the union use it as leverage for the next contract. And don’t chew your foot off trying to undercut Skywest. Really who is going to win that battle?

ON a sliver platter? Have you read over the email from ALPA? In an environment where we could likely voting on concessions, we increase our vacation and min day credit. We get a hard cap on four days. ALPA will have people in the room for trip building and line bidding of what we actually have some say in. You may not see it but in the complete view, we got quite a bit of the share the company could save if we grow some.

Once in contract talks, you believe we have leverage. We have more now than we will in contract talks. The company comes at us with a garbage system and refuses to budge. Once you reach a certain point, it goes to arbitration and then you end up with a crap shoot of what we'll end up with. During these talks, it was one item basically and we had NO obligation to bring it to a vote. That gives us more leverage than you realize.

On top of that, how much flying do you think we WON'T get while we go through the long process of negotiations? Get any new flying is a gamble as well. However, if this goes down, I'll working extra hard to get out of here. You guys can ride the ship down with your, "Full pay to the last day" mentality (which I find amusing since we've gotten a whole bunch for it and have industry leading provisions in the LOA).

 

[OCP]

They used industry leading PBS to secure improvements in the current contract. If it gets voted down then the company has a LOT more leverage with the entire contract next time around. As has been said, getting it before the next round will allow us to judge what we like and don't and in the next round refine those points. We will not get that oppertunity if it's lumped into the next contract.

 

[sweptback]

What do we have to lose? Only the sole bargaining chip we have for contract negotiations. For Christmas I’m giving the Union the ability to use PBS in our favor.

In 4 years if I hear you complaining about how long the negotiations are taking I will simply ask you if you voted yes on PBS. If you say yes I will just laugh.

If we vote PBS in, the company pays for the first 18 months of contract negotiations. That way they have a financial obligation to get things moving.

Plus, what makes you think that we would get as good of a deal during Section 6? During this process, we only really discussed PBS. During Section 6, the whole contract is open. What are you willing to give up to have the same things we have now, just a year or two later?

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

They used industry leading PBS to secure improvements in the current contract. If it gets voted down then the company has a LOT more leverage with the entire contract next time around. As has been said, getting it before the next round will allow us to judge what we like and don't and in the next round refine those points. We will not get that oppertunity if it's lumped into the next contract.

EXACTLY! We get it in place now. Then we let the company exploit it, as they will try, as always.Then in our next negotiations, we tweak and tighten up language where needed.
Don't let what is already accomplished now, burn any negotiating leverage in our next contract!

 

[blesko]

They used industry leading PBS to secure improvements in the current contract. If it gets voted down then the company has a LOT more leverage with the entire contract next time around. As has been said, getting it before the next round will allow us to judge what we like and don't and in the next round refine those points. We will not get that oppertunity if it's lumped into the next contract.

Weren't there supposed to be a mix of trips as per the contract? Weren't the trips supposed to be front-loaded as per the contract? If I'm correct, this certainly has not been enforced, so why do I have any faith that anything we do further will be enforced as well? I'm not voting yes, or voting no yet as I want to find out the exact language of the TA first, however, ALPA needs to be held accountable for enforcing what they negotioate. The conpany sure as hell won't do it.

What's ALPA saying we're doing this and dammit we're gonna uphold this? I haven't heard one d*mn thing about that yet. Stand behind it and I might be more likely to vote yes.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

[snip]
In an environment where we could likely voting on concessions, we increase our vacation and min day credit....
[snip]

....or we wait a couple of years until Age 65 kicks in and the mainline geezers retire in droves. Then The Company might be scrambling to keep pilots and we can name our price.
I think it foolish to base a decision regarding PBS on whether you suspect ASA will get more flying as a result. The future in general, and the airline industry in particular, are capricious at best. Even if ASA/Skywest/Delta swear that more flying will come if we merely accept PBS (and they can pinky swear and really, really, totally mean it), that doesn't mean anything tomorrow. Bases come and bases go, as do airplanes and overnights. Promises mean nothing. I trust Magic 8 Ball about as much as Union and Company predictions and promises.
I plan on reading the LOA with an eye towards improvements in things right now. Anything promised, implied, or suggested has no value. The language is what matters. Again, I am inclined to vote no on the principles involved, and my lack of faith in Management and the Union, but I will see what the agreement actually says.

 

[OCP]

Weren't there supposed to be a mix of trips as per the contract? Weren't the trips supposed to be front-loaded as per the contract? If I'm correct, this certainly has not been enforced, so why do I have any faith that anything we do further will be enforced as well? I'm not voting yes, or voting no yet as I want to find out the exact language of the TA first, however, ALPA needs to be held accountable for enforcing what they negotioate. The conpany sure as hell won't do it.

What's ALPA saying we're doing this and dammit we're gonna uphold this? I haven't heard one d*mn thing about that yet. Stand behind it and I might be more likely to vote yes.

That is the language that we read but didn't take to heart. The contract does say all of that, but after each sentence it goes on to say something to the effect that if the company can't than it doesn't have to. So technically there isn't anything to enforce. What I am hoping to see in this LOA is stronger language so the company doesn't have those "outs" that are unenforceable.

 

[blesko]

That is the language that we read but didn't take to heart. The contract does say all of that, but after each sentence it goes on to say something to the effect that if the company can't than it doesn't have to. So technically there isn't anything to enforce. What I am hoping to see in this LOA is stronger language so the company doesn't have those "outs" that are unenforceable.

So we had the opportunity (not me since I voted no), to secure a industry leading contract with work rules, not necessarily pay, but we pissed it away but reading it but not really caring about it???? HUH? If we did this with the "Contract 07" how are we smart enough as a pilot group to uphold this gem???

 

[OCP]

So we had the opportunity (not me since I voted no), to secure a industry leading contract with work rules, not necessarily pay, but we pissed it away but reading it but not really caring about it???? HUH? If we did this with the "Contract 07" how are we smart enough as a pilot group to uphold this gem???

By learning from past mistakes.

 

[buscap]

So we had the opportunity (not me since I voted no), to secure a industry leading contract with work rules, not necessarily pay, but we pissed it away but reading it but not really caring about it???? HUH? If we did this with the "Contract 07" how are we smart enough as a pilot group to uphold this gem???

Could you please tell me what parts of our contract are not at or above industry?

 

[blesko]

Could you please tell me what parts of our contract are not at or above industry?

Thats not what I'm saying. I think the contract is acceptable, however it would be a hell of a lot better if our union went to bat and actually stood up and ensured it was actually enforced. This red arrow day is still up in the air, front loading of trips, everyone b*tches and its not upheld, mix of legnth of trips, everyone b*tches but where is ALPA in upholding what we currently have? Maybe I'm missing something.....

We have a contract, but we can't enforce it. We need to ensure this PBS TA, if it passes, is dealt with in a different manner.

 

[sweptback]

Thats not what I'm saying. I think the contract is acceptable, however it would be a hell of a lot better if our union went to bat and actually stood up and ensured it was actually enforced. This red arrow day is still up in the air, front loading of trips, everyone b*tches and its not upheld, mix of legnth of trips, everyone b*tches but where is ALPA in upholding what we currently have? Maybe I'm missing something.....

We have a contract, but we can't enforce it. We need to ensure this PBS TA, if it passes, is dealt with in a different manner.

How many grievances have you filed? What was the outcome?

 

[buscap]

Even a company raped, grievance rife version of our contract is better than most out there. Now let's make it better.

The PBS LOA may do that. Or not.

But judge the PBS on it's own merits or troubles, not some piddly contract enhancements meant to bribe us.

The PBS LOA is about PBS, not fixing everything we don't like about our contract. Leave the fixing of our contract to the next contract and judge PBS on it's own.

 

[blesko]

How many grievances have you filed? What was the outcome?

2 and none, thank you