No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[Tarzan]

I harbor no illusions that the company has any interest in a win situation for the pilots. They are in business to make money, not friends.

Agreed 100% in regards to making money. However, a somewhat happy pilot group will work harder to get the job done. SkyWest did not stay non union as long as they have without doning something to keep them happy. As the old saying goes, "A company that deserves a union, gets one."

In talking to a number of pilots at airlines with PBS*, the language of the agreement is just as important as the system used. Our union is too weak to get the language tight enough to make the system work as intended. The Company has demonstrated time and again that they follow the letter of the law, not the intent. I do not trust the Union to finally get it right with this change pushed through with all the alacrity, zeal, and determination they failed to show during contract negotiations.
I will wait for the road shows

Have you read the language yet? How can you say this? They've spent over a year working on ONE item. I can't say that was exactly rushed.

1. The existing system favors the senior folks. I see no reason to replace this with a system that further favors the senior.
2. The Company wants PBS very, very, very badly. This can't be good for pilots.
3. The Union can't to be trusted to get adequate language in place to minimize the Company's capacity to subvert PBS to their own benefit.

1. This is your chief complanit then. You aren't alone, many pilots seem to be reserved about what they don't know with anything about. It is in our nature.
2. Just because the company sees an opportunity to save some money, doesn't mean they are out to bend you over.
3. I understand your complaint here as well. I hate it when people say this but, have you spent any time with any of these guys who worked on this? Have you voted for any reps? If you don't agree, that is more than alright, but you have to get involved with the process to some degree. The way things were done in the past seemed favor ostracizing dissenters. It looks like this mindset is changing. Share you thoughts with the guys involved. Hopefully for the next contract we get lots more guys showing up and asking questions and seeing how much fun it is when language is being written.

* - Not one pilot I have spoken with on the matter had anything to say about PBS that didn't involve some variation of "don't do it" and varied profanities.

No other company out there can compare to what is in this LOA. The Skywest guys don't seem to care for theirs much but that is understandable. Additionally, most pilot groups had PBS forced on them in bankruptcy. We aren't under that constraint. Give it a good look at the roadshows. Find your new reps and give them an earful. Get involved!

:beer:

 

[aircombat]

My understanding is that both the company and the union have said that there is no cost savings with PBS until we "Grow," and the savings would be from not having to hire (read: bring back furloughs) as soon as they would normally have to.

With the rumor from Delta flying being a 7% Year over year increase for the summer, and ASA's staffing *currently* at 4.5ish crews per airplane (and thin reserve staffing), seems like a vote for PBS just keeps folks on the street. Course, voting to keep folks on the street is a lot less painful than voting to kick them off the property... which is why the company took care of that for us, a mere week before magically coming to a prelim agreement about PBS.

Would we resist furloughing those people if it was part of the PBS agreement? Would furlough protection for those pilots still be part of the negotiation, like it was in the beginning? 4 days went up and productive trips have gone down in the last 8 or so months as well, and PBS is being offered as a method of solving this problem. Ever hear of a store jacking up the price on an item so they can mark it "30% off!" bringing it down to the original price...?

Finally someone else that sees the obvious. The others blinded like 777forever who say if we call them back for the summer we will furlough again next winter. NO, we always used to carry extra pilots for a few months in the winter. It’s clear that they are trying to push this though before the summer. You guys just need to think why. You are all being played like a fiddle. And if I hear growth one more time I’m going to puke. Just look at all the other regionals that did things with the promise of growth. You guys are going to eat your words just like them.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Finally someone else that sees the obvious. The others blinded like 777forever who say if we call them back for the summer we will furlough again next winter. NO, we always used to carry extra pilots for a few months in the winter. It’s clear that they are trying to push this though before the summer. You guys just need to think why. You are all being played like a fiddle. And if I hear growth one more time I’m going to puke. Just look at all the other regionals that did things with the promise of growth. You guys are going to eat your words just like them.

Has the company or union wronged you in some way lately? The reason I ask is that you sound like a disgruntled employee that could go postal at any moment. The only thing I asked is that you read the TA B4 you make any decision about it. If someone asked you what it was like flying the Bombardier C-series what would you say, you hate it?

We all want our furloughees back on property but I want them back in the right way.

 

[777forever]

Finally someone else that sees the obvious. The others blinded like 777forever who say if we call them back for the summer we will furlough again next winter. NO, we always used to carry extra pilots for a few months in the winter. It’s clear that they are trying to push this though before the summer. You guys just need to think why. You are all being played like a fiddle. And if I hear growth one more time I’m going to puke. Just look at all the other regionals that did things with the promise of growth. You guys are going to eat your words just like them.

Hate to break it to you but the furloughs are not coming back until there is growth at ASA. With the pilots we have right now we can handle another summer like last year.

 

[aircombat]

Hate to break it to you but the furloughs are not coming back until there is growth at ASA. With the pilots we have right now we can handle another summer like last year.

I guess in the 2 years that you have been at ASA you have become an expert at staffing needs? I'm not saying that I am an expert. Far from it. But I don't know how we can staff a summer like last one with over 50 less pilots.

 

[aircombat]

Has the company or union wronged you in some way lately? The reason I ask is that you sound like a disgruntled employee that could go postal at any moment. The only thing I asked is that you read the TA B4 you make any decision about it. If someone asked you what it was like flying the Bombardier C-series what would you say, you hate it?

We all want our furloughees back on property but I want them back in the right way.

I'm not really disgruntled. I just don't like seeing fellow pilots get conned. It's not so much what the Union has done rather what they haven't done. ALPA has let a lot happen that is not good for the profession. Unfortunately the whole system is based on votes and people will always vote selfishly even though it may end up hurting themselves in the long run. example, relaxing scope.
If the Union wanted to secure growth at ASA they would work to merge us with Skywest. That's the only way growth will come to ASA.

 

[Tarzan]

If the Union wanted to secure growth at ASA they would work to merge us with Skywest. That's the only way growth will come to ASA.

I am all for it. Do you propose losing representation as a result? That will likely be an end result. My understanding is the reason the union had pursued it was that ALPA would likely not be in the picture as a result. If more pilots are okay with this outcome, speak up to your reps.

 

[aircombat]

I am all for it. Do you propose losing representation as a result? That will likely be an end result. My understanding is the reason the union had pursued it was that ALPA would likely not be in the picture as a result. If more pilots are okay with this outcome, speak up to your reps.

not really sure why that would have to happen. I've also heard that but haven't gotten a good reason. I suspect that we might have to revote with the combined list. I'm willing to risk it but I'm sure ALPA isn't.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

On the CRJ200, there are 337 lines in Jan. 34 lines are Naps, 270 lines are 4-days, 6 lines are 3-days and 27 are back to back 2-days or "other". So roughly 10% are Naps, 80% are 4-days, 2% are 3-days, 8% back to back 2- days or "other".

If 4 days are as efficient as they say, then they will build 60% 4-days PBS per the TA. Using the same numbers as January, of the 337 lines 202 lines will be 4-days. That would reduce 68 4 days trips to be either Naps, 3 days, or back to back 2-days.

Now, the non 4-day lines double from 20% to 40%, I am assumng Nap lines won't change, so that leaves 68 lines to be 3-days or back to back 2- days. For every 3-day, there are 4 back to back 2-days. This will yield 17 3-days and 51 back to back 2-days or "other".

IN SUMMARY, using 60% 4 days instead of 80%, and keeping the number of nap lines the same, January would have yielded 202 4-day trips, 23 3-day trips, 34 Nap lines, and 78 back to back 2 days or "other".

Here is my point, only 23 3-day trips. Even if they converted half the back to back 2-days to 3-days, that would still only be 62 3-days.

Several years ago, I held 3 day trips with weekends off. Unless you are top 10% you will never see that again.

Besides that, I don't like having first come first serve future open time. Unless you live on the computer. Junior pilots will be getting trips that more senior pilots may want. Sure senior pilots are getting most of the open time I want, but that's the way it goes. Being junior comes with a price, and we were all junior at some point in time.

Someone mentioned that having 60% 4-days is a much greater improvement to the 80% 4-days we currently have. Of course it is, why do you think they are currently making 80% 4-days?? So you think you are getting a better deal with PBS!!!!!

Also, why should we extend the contract by 2 years at a 1% pay raise, when we should be negotiating the new contract during this time. That would yield the average 3% pay raise from the end of the current contract. We are losing a 2% pay raise for those 2 years.

I don't buy this garbage.

I vote "NO"!!

Really? You WANT to be negotiating right now, when the industry is down? This is not the time to be negotiating.

 

[777forever]

I guess in the 2 years that you have been at ASA you have become an expert at staffing needs? I'm not saying that I am an expert. Far from it. But I don't know how we can staff a summer like last one with over 50 less pilots.

What kind of denial are you in? Many other experienced pilots are saying, Scott Hall said it, yet you continue to believe the furloughs will come back without PBS. All I ask is that you become an expert in common sense. Furloughs will not come back until the pilot group is at the breakpoint in terms of block hrs. When every line is blocked at 90+hrs and all reserves are breaking guarantee with ease then we have a need for pilots.

Last summer we hardly had any offers for premium open-time pickups.

 

[Tarzan]

not really sure why that would have to happen. I've also heard that but haven't gotten a good reason. I suspect that we might have to revote with the combined list. I'm willing to risk it but I'm sure ALPA isn't.

There would have to be a vote by the combined pilot group for representation. After only 30% voting for it at OO and the current level of apathy and/or level of dislike for ALPA at ASA do you really think it would pass?

I believe we need one list but not sure how far I am willing to go in giving up my legal protections of what we have now.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

I'm not really disgruntled. I just don't like seeing fellow pilots get conned. It's not so much what the Union has done rather what they haven't done. ALPA has let a lot happen that is not good for the profession. Unfortunately the whole system is based on votes and people will always vote selfishly even though it may end up hurting themselves in the long run. example, relaxing scope.
If the Union wanted to secure growth at ASA they would work to merge us with Skywest. That's the only way growth will come to ASA.

Whether you approve or dissaprove of the work ALPA has done they are our only game in town until voted out. Just as you hold the copmany accountable you must also hold the union accountable that they ARE looking out for our best interest as we pay dues every month in the hopes that they are. How often have you voiced your concerns to your reps? After all, you paid for them to represent you.

The issue of PBS should be nothing new to any of us as this was part of out current contract signed almost three years ago see LOA6. It is smart of the union to seek agreement now as we enter into negotiations in a few months. It is impossible to fill in every "loophole" when something such PBS is implemented. Thus after several months of usage and feedback from us they can make adjustments to the language as needed.

 

[JoeMerchant]

not really sure why that would have to happen. I've also heard that but haven't gotten a good reason. I suspect that we might have to revote with the combined list. I'm willing to risk it but I'm sure ALPA isn't.

A combined ASA/Skywest pilot group would get to vote on who represents them...ALPA isn't pushing for a single list under this situation because they are afraid of losing the ASA pilots too...The vote would be close, and there is a good chance ALPA would lose.

 

[aircombat]

What kind of denial are you in? Many other experienced pilots are saying, Scott Hall said it, yet you continue to believe the furloughs will come back without PBS. All I ask is that you become an expert in common sense. Furloughs will not come back until the pilot group is at the breakpoint in terms of block hrs. When every line is blocked at 90+hrs and all reserves are breaking guarantee with ease then we have a need for pilots.

Last summer we hardly had any offers for premium open-time pickups.

Just wait until the summer and we will be busy again. When premium open-time pickups are offered at all that is a sign of desperation. What are the forecasted total block hours for this summer compared to last summer?
Even if saying no wouldn't bring them back immediately it would without a doubt bring them back sooner.
All this talk about letting them come back to a stronger company is BS. Is saving the company a fraction of a percent worth that many people?

 

[LazyLightnin']

If the language is good... I'm voting yes.

Eat it.

 

[Tarzan]

All this talk about letting them come back to a stronger company is BS. Is saving the company a fraction of a percent worth that many people?

The people who currently have jobs are worth it.

 

[aircombat]

I’m sure that the people at the majors that voted to relax scope said the exact same thing. They are regretting that now. You, just like them, will probably blame the outcome on someone else. No I don’t think that this is as bad for the profession as relaxing scope but anything that requires less pilots isn’t good. I’m sure that the guys that voted scope away didn’t care that they voted your high paying job away.

 

[aircombat]

The people who currently have jobs are worth it.

I don't think you heard me! LESS THAN 1% company savings. I think it's safe to say you haven't been furloughed before.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

100% good points!

-You have imagine all the things which are NOT specially excluded in the agreement. Anything else, the company will absolutely try to get away with.

This whole agreement is nothing more than one major loophole, and a very easy way for SH to slide something into our collective a-hole.

-I'm sure it will pass-we have no shortage of idiots who think SH and BH are on our side. But it will not pass by virtue of MY VOTE-you can bet on that!

We can also bet your whining a$$ will be bitching about every freakin thing that comes down the pike at this company. Ho hum, whats new!

 

[buscap]

Ok people!!

Here's one for ya!! Listen up!!! Only gonna type this once!!!

The PBS cat is already out of the bag!!! The turd has already been crapped!!! Genie out of the bottle!!! Can't unscramble eggs...and all that other crap.

And it's all way past the tipping point. We ain't reversing this industry trend. Now we can sit here and fight it...all by our freakin selves...with our high costs and most likely shrinking pot of flying.

Or we can jack the bar up just a little with the best PBS system, contract language and work rules.

You guys need to talk to some folks about the PBS LOA. Not one pilot group out there, regional or mainline, has anything like we are considering. And the reason for that is because most of them got PBS at the point of a spear.

Yeah this ain't great, but we need to take a close look at the opportunity here. This may be our last best chance to control the screwing.

We keep our costs high and I'll bet a brand new pair of mormon long-johns Mr. A will just plain fak us into the trash pile of oblivion.

In no way does that man want us to be the cheapest out there. He is no idiot and knows very much who he is dealing with. But he will do what any sharp businessman would in this situation.

He's got two airlines with very different operational ledgers. Do the math people!! Besides, I believe if approved, the LOA will result in the Flightline system migrating over to the Skywest side, which will raise their costs slightly, much to our benefit.