No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[Tarzan]

Then by all means vote yes. That's why we get the chance to vote. If the new systems works better for you, then I respect your decision.

I wasn't trying to single you out. I am frustrated by what I hear from ASA pilots. This isn't my first airline and I've seen some terrible work rules out there those companies still manage to violate with impunity. I've been around for a couple of days here and have seen nothing but improvements from the union and company. However, this doesn't mean we can not make it better but we have to keep open minds. I don't understand the the hand wringing that goes on every time the union and company proactively work together to try to a get a win-win for the pilots and company.

 

[screamingpax]

Come on....I am not sold on PBS but you guys all keep saying that we would be giving up our QOL! Did you forget, we have none!!!! 4 on 3 off is not quality of life. Also, I heard from a friend of mine in the union, that the 60% rule was imposed from Flightline because as they were running lines for the months to simulate what would happen, they couldn't do it with all of SH's 4 days. They supposidly told him there had to be less four days to make it work and make it more efficient.

Lastly, how often do things that make the company more efficient help the employees? Are we getting efficiency paychecks, or our furloughed pilots back????

 

[USCtrojan]

I wasn't trying to single you out. I am frustrated by what I hear from ASA pilots. This isn't my first airline and I've seen some terrible work rules out there those companies still manage to violate with impunity. I've been around for a couple of days here and have seen nothing but improvements from the union and company. However, this doesn't mean we can not make it better but we have to keep open minds. I don't understand the the hand wringing that goes on every time the union and company proactively work together to try to a get a win-win for the pilots and company.

Not to mention all the hard work the PWG put in getting this TA. A lot of time and effort went into improving our workrules -- and at the same time making this more efficient for our Company. As you've stated before, Tarzan, this is initially a LOSS for the Company as they get it implemented. It's efficient when ASA GROWS. No point having PBS IF ASA is to stagnate or whither away...

I don't have a sure decision yet as the details have not been presented. I'm leaning toward a yes.

I love the first come first served open time pot. My buddy at Frontier loved it. Perhaps there is some Frontier pilots on FI that could comment on it?

Trojan

 

[IFLYASA]

I heard from a friend of mine in the union, that the 60% rule was imposed from Flightline because as they were running lines for the months to simulate what would happen, they couldn't do it with all of SH's 4 days. They supposidly told him there had to be less four days to make it work and make it more efficient

Hmmm, reducing 4 days to make the lines more efficient. NUFF SAID

It's still a NO!

 

[SLUF4]

I just don't like that Popolizo guy with all his funny math. First he says in the crew support update that we have way more reserve ratio than other airlines-really? Then why are there no 700 pilots available on reserve? Why are instructors being pulled out of training to fly line trips? Maybe we do have more of a ratio, but that is nullified when you don't load all the trips into the lines for people to bid on and you are forced to give them to reserves. I don't trust that guy at all and I basically stopped reading the memo about 4 days after the second page yesterday since it seemed like the same BS as usual from over there. I really think the 4-day and red arrow day spree was to get us to vote this PBS in. I'd be more likely to vote for it if the min day was upped a little more than 3.86 and we got some other improvements like a red arrow day limit and tweaking the ready reserve rules a little.

 

[sweptback]

Here is my point, only 23 3-day trips.

Your assumption is incorrect. If you split apart a 4-day trip you come up with a 2-day and 3-day. Or 3-day and nap. I am not sure why you figure that they would choose to build a back-to-back 2 day over a 3-day. Bottom line, if you don't like 4-days, there will be less of them.

Several years ago, I held 3 day trips with weekends off. Unless you are top 10% you will never see that again.

I agree, but the flying we received from Delta was different in the 2006 time frame. Our stage lengths were longer (actually during the SKYW purchase we had longer stage lengths than they did, we did a lot of ATL-YUL, Upstate NY, MTY, etc.). We had the ATR to do ATL-CHA, ATL-CSG, etc. We also had consistent flying on every day of the week. I'm not taking the company's side on this, but it's hard to make a high-crediting 3-day trip when you can fly 5 legs on the CR2 and barely break 5 hours. The company can't easily fix this, because they don't determine the marketing schedule.

Besides that, I don't like having first come first serve future open time. Unless you live on the computer. Junior pilots will be getting trips that more senior pilots may want. Sure senior pilots are getting most of the open time I want, but that's the way it goes. Being junior comes with a price, and we were all junior at some point in time.

You use your seniority to bid for your schedule, therefore you're going to get most of what you want. Most major airlines have a first-come-first-serve open time system and you don't hear them scream about how unfair it is, rather they all love it. Talk to one of our senior FAs, they have the same system. I bet they'll speak in favor of it.

Seniority is still a factor in initial open time, where there is much more variety of open time. Once the month starts, there will be less incentive to trade for something because you would probably have what you want already.

The Flightline system will allow you to set text message alerts, so when a trip comes up that meets your criteria, you get a message. Then, you can swap for that trip instantly. I did this back in the day that we used Flica for line bidding and open time.

You'll get an answer if the swap was approved instantaneously, so no waiting a day to find out if you need to swap something else.

Also, why should we extend the contract by 2 years at a 1% pay raise, when we should be negotiating the new contract during this time. That would yield the average 3% pay raise from the end of the current contract. We are losing a 2% pay raise for those 2 years.

We are not extending the contract by 2 years. Just one, and we start negotiating at the same time. So we're not really losing anything, unless you think that we would have wrapped up in contract negotiations in 6 months (May 2010, when we opened negotiations, to Nov 2010, when our contract became amendable). Since our contract becomes amendable in Nov 2011 now, we get a 1% pay raise on that day, consistent with the DOS bumps in our contract currently.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Being able to amend the PBS language in a shorter amount of time is a plus. I don't think anyone would disagree that PBS would be added in the next contract otherwise.

 

[aircombat]

all this talk about 4 days. I want to know is there anything that says that they can't assign us all a 3 day with a 2 day attached. I would rather do a 4 day.

 

[777forever]

Too many loopholes? Have you read the TA yet? WTF is up with you ASA people. A bunch of whining, complaining children who think ALPA can solve everything and that the company is out to screw you over every chance they get because they want to hear you complain. Yeah right. If I could get my way, I'd just have those guys impose this without a vote just to torque off the whiners. Unfortunately, I am just one vote. I like the system and think it will be good for me. I can choose what I want to work and am not bound by the rigidity of the current system. Plus, it will make my company (the place where the paychecks come from) more efficient.

Agree 100% With all the effort Skywest Inc has put into improving ASA I can't believe there are still pilots that believe the company is out to get us. Gentlemen, the BEST opportunity to increase your quality of life is growth. ASA best chance of doing that is reducing cost and increasing efficiency. Im not saying to vote in any PBS TA, but to at least give the thing a look with an open mind.

Naps have been eliminated and 4 days increased to reduce cost. PBS will help the company become tremendously more efficient and greatly increase our growth opportunity which will greatly increase our QOL.

Those of you complaining about 4 days and not being able to extend your vacation with PBS will have a lot more to complain about when you're ultimately on reserve, or worse, without a job due to being too costly. I sincerely hope most of you are just the vocal minority.

 

[aircombat]

Is anyone else wondering why they (ALPA) so hell bent on pushing this through right now, before February? What do our union officials know that they aren't telling us? PBS provides nothing to the company until the company starts to grow, so why are they saying this. PBS was thought of very poorly by the association until recently, so what is the general pilot group not seeing here?

The answer to this question is very simple. If you noticed in the last PBS update they said that there will be no furloughs or downgrades due to PBS. Yeah because they have already done them so they can say that. They would have to call the furloughs back during the busy summer schedule if they don't get PBS. It only makes sense since they say we need 10% less pilots and yet they don't need to furlough? Vote no and watch the furloughs come back.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Do the current MEC chairman get some sort of company bonus for getting this passed before their departure?

 

[LazyLightnin']

It's Flica, a local (ATL) based system owned by a Delta pilot, and it's being promoted as an improved bidding system. Don't worry though, if ASA pilots vote it in, you SKYW weenies will get it too, thanks to the efforts of a union.

Skywest pilot *eyes squenched;fingers crossed*: "Please vote yes...Please vote yes"

 

[aircombat]

Agree 100% With all the effort Skywest Inc has put into improving ASA I can't believe there are still pilots that believe the company is out to get us. Gentlemen, the BEST opportunity to increase your quality of life is growth. ASA best chance of doing that is reducing cost and increasing efficiency. Im not saying to vote in any PBS TA, but to at least give the thing a look with an open mind.

Naps have been eliminated and 4 days increased to reduce cost. PBS will help the company become tremendously more efficient and greatly increase our growth opportunity which will greatly increase our QOL.

Those of you complaining about 4 days and not being able to extend your vacation with PBS will have a lot more to complain about when you're ultimately on reserve, or worse, without a job due to being too costly. I sincerely hope most of you are just the vocal minority.

you say tremendously more efficient and reduce costs for growth. I just have one question for you. We negotiate our contracts with the overall cost of the airline. What precentage of a savings is PBS going to create on our OVERALL costs?

If Skywest cared about our wellbeing they would merge the two companies and grow us united. Instead we whipsaw eachother for growth.

 

[sweptback]

Do the current MEC chairman get some sort of company bonus for getting this passed before their departure?

What makes you think that the MEC chair will not be re-elected?

 

[sweptback]

Skywest pilot *eyes squenched;fingers crossed*: "Please vote yes...Please vote yes"

Honestly, if we vote this down, SkyWest will still get it.

That way they can talk on these boards about how great of a system that it is, and how big of an improvement it is over AOS.

Then during Section 6, we will get 75% of the work rules and benefits we got during this round, and will have no choice but to say yes.

It really is a great plan, from the company's perspective.

 

[aircombat]

If you are an FO and voting yes on this TA I hope you like the stagnation. Growth may or may not come, I’m leaning toward not come. PBS isn’t going to change that. The one thing that is certain is that we will require about 10% less captains so it will be that much longer for upgrade and we would have to grow that much just to break even.

 

[LazyLightnin']

What makes you think that the MEC chair will not be re-elected?

Anyone for that matter. We're all getting the feeling that we're trying to be sold something we don't need. So who's getting the "cornhusker kickback"?

 

[aircombat]

Anyone for that matter. We're all getting the feeling that we're trying to be sold something we don't need. So who's getting the "cornhusker kickback"?

I wish we were all getting the feeling but I've heard too many people that should be against this support it. The koolaid is good my friends.

 

[Tarzan]

If you are an FO and voting yes on this TA I hope you like the stagnation. Growth may or may not come, I’m leaning toward not come. PBS isn’t going to change that. The one thing that is certain is that we will require about 10% less captains so it will be that much longer for upgrade and we would have to grow that much just to break even.

Glad you crystal ball is tuned so well. You have no idea about what is coming down the road. No one really does. However, I assure you that without a pilot group willing to work with the company, we'll see no growth for sure. It will go to the more efficient group being SkyWest. You can't expect to be one of the highest paid in the regionals and not be flexible to achieve a cost competitive airline. Scott beats this drum so much, we basically ignore him. However, the facts are still the facts. Until we achieve one list, we will continue to compete against other lesser, crappier regional companies. The choice is, either stay flexible or wither on the vine. You folks that are decrying this measure really need to step outside your narrow field of view and look at what is really in your best interest especially if you plan and staying at ASA for a long period of time.

 

[aircombat]

Glad you crystal ball is tuned so well. You have no idea about what is coming down the road. No one really does. However, I assure you that without a pilot group willing to work with the company, we'll see no growth for sure. It will go to the more efficient group being SkyWest. You can't expect to be one of the highest paid in the regionals and not be flexible to achieve a cost competitive airline. Scott beats this drum so much, we basically ignore him. However, the facts are still the facts. Until we achieve one list, we will continue to compete against other lesser, crappier regional companies. The choice is, either stay flexible or wither on the vine. You folks that are decrying this measure really need to step outside your narrow field of view and look at what is really in your best interest especially if you plan and staying at ASA for a long period of time.

yeah clearly the fight to the bottom is the best solution. It worked out for ever other airline right.

 

[Tarzan]

yeah clearly the fight to the bottom is the best solution. It worked out for ever other airline right.

Would you mind showing me where this is concessionary?

 

[aircombat]

Would you mind showing me where this is concessionary?

-10% less pilots
-QOL decrease for most
-longer upgrades
-more stagnation

anything done in attempts to undercut the competition is concessionary to the profession.

 

[sweptback]

-10% less pilots

How did you come up with this number?

-QOL decrease for most

How do you know this? None of us has seen the language of the TA yet!

-longer upgrades

Exactly where are there fast upgrades right now? The economy's in the dumps, you can't blame this one on PBS.

-more stagnation

Keep in mind, after Delta, NWA, and Continental agreed to PBS (or had PBS forced upon them in Bankruptcy), they all went through a massive hiring spree. How was that stagnation?

anything done in attempts to undercut the competition is concessionary to the profession.

From everything I've heard, we have the best PBS system industry-wide. I've even heard that Delta is looking to improve their system with some of our language and work rules. How is that concessionary or detrimental to the profession?

 

[Tarzan]

-10% less pilots
-QOL decrease for most
-longer upgrades
-more stagnation

anything done in attempts to undercut the competition is concessionary to the profession.

I'll call BS on all of them. I asked for concessions. So far, all I see is speculation and nothing about how this degrade our current contract.

BTW, I doubt we'll be able run that much leaner but start doing the math for 180 pilots at second year pay. Include all the taxes and insurance that the company pays on the pilot's behalf. Let me know where you end up.

Undercut the competition? Fall on your own sword, aircombat. Mostly what I see is the fear of the unknown. Can there be issues? I am sure there will be. There is no such thing as an loophole proof contract. But we know we start contract negotiations shortly and we'll be able to address most of the loopholes during talks. I'd rather start now than get whatever the company wants forced on us during contract arbitration and then be stuck with it for however many years until the next.

 

[aircombat]

I'll call BS on all of them. I asked for concessions. So far, all I see is speculation and nothing about how this degrade our current contract.

BTW, I doubt we'll be able run that much leaner but start doing the math for 180 pilots at second year pay. Include all the taxes and insurance that the company pays on the pilot's behalf. Let me know where you end up.

Undercut the competition? Fall on your own sword, aircombat. Mostly what I see is the fear of the unknown. Can there be issues? I am sure there will be. There is no such thing as an loophole proof contract. But we know we start contract negotiations shortly and we'll be able to address most of the loopholes during talks. I'd rather start now than get whatever the company wants forced on us during contract arbitration and then be stuck with it for however many years until the next.

the 10% came from what we have been told that PBS will make us more efficient by. If we are 10% more efficient you can bet that we will carry 10% less pilots. SH said that it will reduce the need for pilots but that is ok because of the huge pilot shortage.
Your right. A lot of this is unknown. The only thing that is certain is that we are voting away peoples jobs and they don't even get to vote on this.

 

[Tarzan]

I doubt they will be able to run 10% leaner but once things start to move again and figuring second year pay of 180 FO's, the company will see $3.7M a year alone in savings. That doesn't even figure in costs the company bears for insurance. Since that is 70/30 split, that is significant as well and once you add in SS costs that the company matches, the amount jumps up there quickly. However, the company won't see a dime until we either have turn over or we grow.

I'd rather have these furloughed guys come back to a health company rather than one just getting along. If this is a means to it, I'm for it. Unless you are ready to concede pay, sick pay and vacation time, this is the best chance we have at helping these guys get back without shooting ourselves in the foot. My biggest concern about this is what if the company doesn't see the savings they think they will? What if we like it and they try to take it back? Then we'll be in concession mode. That is my chief fear of this system.

 

[aircombat]

BTW, I doubt we'll be able run that much leaner but start doing the math for 180 pilots at second year pay. Include all the taxes and insurance that the company pays on the pilot's behalf. Let me know where you end up.

Well if you ran the math that poorly you would end up with a high number. The work is still getting paid out but to a fewer number of pilots. Pilots higher on the payscale. They still have to pay the taxes but not the insurance.
I've heard a number around 12 million a year in savings. I'm sure that is only a fraction of a precent of the airlines overall costs.

 

[Tarzan]

I figured just $23 an hour for 180 guys becaue I am lazy. At min guarantee it still equals 3.7M. I am not sure of the number attached what the company gave for PBS but I've heard around 3M. I understand what you are getting at but less employees for the same amount of work still equals that many less employees to pay. I still think Scott was being overly optimistic with his 10% number but at least it is easy to use right?

I am not sure how they could see 12M in savings unless there was massive growth which I don't think that has shown up in anyone's crystal ball yet. I have heard of other places where the company could save almost twice what you mentioned but it would not be out of the Flight Ops side. A million here and million there and it all adds up to lower cost. I'd love nothing better than have some of the best rates in the regionals and getting flying left and right because our overall costs are the lowest.


Good conversation. We should start with the name calling though to keep in good faith with FI protocol.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you are an FO and voting yes on this TA I hope you like the stagnation. Growth may or may not come, I’m leaning toward not come. PBS isn’t going to change that. The one thing that is certain is that we will require about 10% less captains so it will be that much longer for upgrade and we would have to grow that much just to break even.

So voting "no" will somehow prevent stagnation? How do you figure that?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Anyone for that matter. We're all getting the feeling that we're trying to be sold something we don't need. So who's getting the "cornhusker kickback"?

The outgoing MEC was the "hardline" group...If they think this is necessary to prevent ASA from getting smaller, then there is probably something to it....I was not a big fan of the outgoing MEC as we all know, but I applaud there effort on PBS.

The problem they have is that they have been saying for years that our costs don't matter....Now all of a sudden, they say our costs do matter...They are a victim of their own message...