No comment on ASA PBS LOA yet?

[GeekMaster]

Do you and I build our own lines? Really? Or do we enter our preferences for what we would like and allow the company to build our lines for what ultimately suits them? This is exactly the example of poorly chosen words I am referring to.

With this system, you actually DO build your own line; within the limits of your seniority of course. When you put all of your preferences in, the trips that match that are displayed. Then you select the actual trips you want and drag them onto your bid sheet. You can build as many bid sheets as you want with every trip in the entire bid package in the exact order you want them. It's up to you.

If you don't want to put as much work into the bid, you can list your bid preferences, then list a "few" desirable bid sheet, and finally tell it to use your bid preferences if those aren't available. The software will then build the line based on YOUR bid preferences with the closest available matches at your seniority level.

If you can't hold weekends off, no system is going to give that to you. This system will however give pilots more choices and input on how they want their schedule built than any other PBS system in use. It's a brand new software and it's being customized specifically for ASA.

 

[GeekMaster]

I have to agree. There are too many loopholes. The company email that was sent out tonight was saying it's more efficient to have 80% 4 days. Now the new PBS language says 60%. Why not 60% now? Exactly! I will not be suckered into this. It's a "NO" vote for me.

It's not 60% now because THEY DON'T HAVE TO. They can legally make it 100% 4 days if they want and we have no legal right to complain. 60% is not only a major improvement, it's an industry first. Talk about setting the bar a little higher; this achieves brand new levels.

 

[79%N1]

I have to agree. There are too many loopholes. The company email that was sent out tonight was saying it's more efficient to have 80% 4 days. Now the new PBS language says 60%. Why not 60% now? Exactly! I will not be suckered into this. It's a "NO" vote for me.

Why? I don't get your logic.

You don't like the percentage of 4 days we currently have. This agreement limits those to a much lesser percentage than we have now - which is no limit.

Ergo, you are getting something you want by voting to implement this system. By voting no you are just getting more of the same! Or, is your no vote just punitive to show your displeasure in the current system?

 

[Freebrd]

The AOS system used at SkyWest is the absolute worse system there is, it was purchased because it was the cheapest one out there.

It's Flica, a local (ATL) based system owned by a Delta pilot, and it's being promoted as an improved bidding system. Don't worry though, if ASA pilots vote it in, you SKYW weenies will get it too, thanks to the efforts of a union.

 

[Freebrd]

Yea...the timing of that email was quite fishy.

Maybe but I think the ton of emails mgt got bitching about all the 4 days might be the reason. Mgt told that tool to put something out, and he wrote it his way. We ought to flood their email with more whining about this jerk.

 

[Tarzan]

I have to agree. There are too many loopholes. The company email that was sent out tonight was saying it's more efficient to have 80% 4 days. Now the new PBS language says 60%. Why not 60% now? Exactly! I will not be suckered into this. It's a "NO" vote for me.

Too many loopholes? Have you read the TA yet? WTF is up with you ASA people. A bunch of whining, complaining children who think ALPA can solve everything and that the company is out to screw you over every chance they get because they want to hear you complain. Yeah right. If I could get my way, I'd just have those guys impose this without a vote just to torque off the whiners. Unfortunately, I am just one vote. I like the system and think it will be good for me. I can choose what I want to work and am not bound by the rigidity of the current system. Plus, it will make my company (the place where the paychecks come from) more efficient.

 

[IFLYASA]

Why? I don't get your logic.

You don't like the percentage of 4 days we currently have. This agreement limits those to a much lesser percentage than we have now - which is no limit.

Ergo, you are getting something you want by voting to implement this system. By voting no you are just getting more of the same! Or, is your no vote just punitive to show your displeasure in the current system?

On the CRJ200, there are 337 lines in Jan. 34 lines are Naps, 270 lines are 4-days, 6 lines are 3-days and 27 are back to back 2-days or "other". So roughly 10% are Naps, 80% are 4-days, 2% are 3-days, 8% back to back 2- days or "other".

If 4 days are as efficient as they say, then they will build 60% 4-days PBS per the TA. Using the same numbers as January, of the 337 lines 202 lines will be 4-days. That would reduce 68 4 days trips to be either Naps, 3 days, or back to back 2-days.

Now, the non 4-day lines double from 20% to 40%, I am assumng Nap lines won't change, so that leaves 68 lines to be 3-days or back to back 2- days. For every 3-day, there are 4 back to back 2-days. This will yield 17 3-days and 51 back to back 2-days or "other".

IN SUMMARY, using 60% 4 days instead of 80%, and keeping the number of nap lines the same, January would have yielded 202 4-day trips, 23 3-day trips, 34 Nap lines, and 78 back to back 2 days or "other".

Here is my point, only 23 3-day trips. Even if they converted half the back to back 2-days to 3-days, that would still only be 62 3-days.

Several years ago, I held 3 day trips with weekends off. Unless you are top 10% you will never see that again.

Besides that, I don't like having first come first serve future open time. Unless you live on the computer. Junior pilots will be getting trips that more senior pilots may want. Sure senior pilots are getting most of the open time I want, but that's the way it goes. Being junior comes with a price, and we were all junior at some point in time.

Someone mentioned that having 60% 4-days is a much greater improvement to the 80% 4-days we currently have. Of course it is, why do you think they are currently making 80% 4-days?? So you think you are getting a better deal with PBS!!!!!

Also, why should we extend the contract by 2 years at a 1% pay raise, when we should be negotiating the new contract during this time. That would yield the average 3% pay raise from the end of the current contract. We are losing a 2% pay raise for those 2 years.

I don't buy this garbage.

I vote "NO"!!

 

[crj567]

Consider this as well:

Our current contract mentions a "mix of 2, 3, and 4 days, as well as naps and day lines."

-Has the company complied with this stipulation even once month since the contract was signed? I think not. What about "Red Arrow" days? What happened there?

-We are dealing with people who never try to comply with the language of the contract-and we have union people who (for some reason I cannot understand,) spend all their time and resources trying to explain away all the crappy things the company does and wants to do to us.

-PBS is a crappy deal-
-We cannot afford to give away what is left of our QOL for this crappy deal.

 

[crj567]

Too many loopholes? Have you read the TA yet? WTF is up with you ASA people. A bunch of whining, complaining children who think ALPA can solve everything and that the company is out to screw you over every chance they get because they want to hear you complain. Yeah right. If I could get my way, I'd just have those guys impose this without a vote just to torque off the whiners. Unfortunately, I am just one vote. I like the system and think it will be good for me. I can choose what I want to work and am not bound by the rigidity of the current system. Plus, it will make my company (the place where the paychecks come from) more efficient.

Thank you Scott.

P.S.- I still don't buy one nanosecond of your load of crap in recurrent every year.... I can't believe you think we are so retarded.

 

[IFLYASA]

Too many loopholes? Have you read the TA yet? WTF is up with you ASA people. A bunch of whining, complaining children who think ALPA can solve everything and that the company is out to screw you over every chance they get because they want to hear you complain. Yeah right. If I could get my way, I'd just have those guys impose this without a vote just to torque off the whiners. Unfortunately, I am just one vote. I like the system and think it will be good for me. I can choose what I want to work and am not bound by the rigidity of the current system. Plus, it will make my company (the place where the paychecks come from) more efficient.

Then by all means vote yes. That's why we get the chance to vote. If the new systems works better for you, then I respect your decision.

 

[Tarzan]

Then by all means vote yes. That's why we get the chance to vote. If the new systems works better for you, then I respect your decision.

I wasn't trying to single you out. I am frustrated by what I hear from ASA pilots. This isn't my first airline and I've seen some terrible work rules out there those companies still manage to violate with impunity. I've been around for a couple of days here and have seen nothing but improvements from the union and company. However, this doesn't mean we can not make it better but we have to keep open minds. I don't understand the the hand wringing that goes on every time the union and company proactively work together to try to a get a win-win for the pilots and company.

 

[screamingpax]

Come on....I am not sold on PBS but you guys all keep saying that we would be giving up our QOL! Did you forget, we have none!!!! 4 on 3 off is not quality of life. Also, I heard from a friend of mine in the union, that the 60% rule was imposed from Flightline because as they were running lines for the months to simulate what would happen, they couldn't do it with all of SH's 4 days. They supposidly told him there had to be less four days to make it work and make it more efficient.

Lastly, how often do things that make the company more efficient help the employees? Are we getting efficiency paychecks, or our furloughed pilots back????

 

[USCtrojan]

I wasn't trying to single you out. I am frustrated by what I hear from ASA pilots. This isn't my first airline and I've seen some terrible work rules out there those companies still manage to violate with impunity. I've been around for a couple of days here and have seen nothing but improvements from the union and company. However, this doesn't mean we can not make it better but we have to keep open minds. I don't understand the the hand wringing that goes on every time the union and company proactively work together to try to a get a win-win for the pilots and company.

Not to mention all the hard work the PWG put in getting this TA. A lot of time and effort went into improving our workrules -- and at the same time making this more efficient for our Company. As you've stated before, Tarzan, this is initially a LOSS for the Company as they get it implemented. It's efficient when ASA GROWS. No point having PBS IF ASA is to stagnate or whither away...

I don't have a sure decision yet as the details have not been presented. I'm leaning toward a yes.

I love the first come first served open time pot. My buddy at Frontier loved it. Perhaps there is some Frontier pilots on FI that could comment on it?

Trojan

 

[IFLYASA]

I heard from a friend of mine in the union, that the 60% rule was imposed from Flightline because as they were running lines for the months to simulate what would happen, they couldn't do it with all of SH's 4 days. They supposidly told him there had to be less four days to make it work and make it more efficient

Hmmm, reducing 4 days to make the lines more efficient. NUFF SAID

It's still a NO!

 

[SLUF4]

I just don't like that Popolizo guy with all his funny math. First he says in the crew support update that we have way more reserve ratio than other airlines-really? Then why are there no 700 pilots available on reserve? Why are instructors being pulled out of training to fly line trips? Maybe we do have more of a ratio, but that is nullified when you don't load all the trips into the lines for people to bid on and you are forced to give them to reserves. I don't trust that guy at all and I basically stopped reading the memo about 4 days after the second page yesterday since it seemed like the same BS as usual from over there. I really think the 4-day and red arrow day spree was to get us to vote this PBS in. I'd be more likely to vote for it if the min day was upped a little more than 3.86 and we got some other improvements like a red arrow day limit and tweaking the ready reserve rules a little.

 

[sweptback]

Here is my point, only 23 3-day trips.

Your assumption is incorrect. If you split apart a 4-day trip you come up with a 2-day and 3-day. Or 3-day and nap. I am not sure why you figure that they would choose to build a back-to-back 2 day over a 3-day. Bottom line, if you don't like 4-days, there will be less of them.

Several years ago, I held 3 day trips with weekends off. Unless you are top 10% you will never see that again.

I agree, but the flying we received from Delta was different in the 2006 time frame. Our stage lengths were longer (actually during the SKYW purchase we had longer stage lengths than they did, we did a lot of ATL-YUL, Upstate NY, MTY, etc.). We had the ATR to do ATL-CHA, ATL-CSG, etc. We also had consistent flying on every day of the week. I'm not taking the company's side on this, but it's hard to make a high-crediting 3-day trip when you can fly 5 legs on the CR2 and barely break 5 hours. The company can't easily fix this, because they don't determine the marketing schedule.

Besides that, I don't like having first come first serve future open time. Unless you live on the computer. Junior pilots will be getting trips that more senior pilots may want. Sure senior pilots are getting most of the open time I want, but that's the way it goes. Being junior comes with a price, and we were all junior at some point in time.

You use your seniority to bid for your schedule, therefore you're going to get most of what you want. Most major airlines have a first-come-first-serve open time system and you don't hear them scream about how unfair it is, rather they all love it. Talk to one of our senior FAs, they have the same system. I bet they'll speak in favor of it.

Seniority is still a factor in initial open time, where there is much more variety of open time. Once the month starts, there will be less incentive to trade for something because you would probably have what you want already.

The Flightline system will allow you to set text message alerts, so when a trip comes up that meets your criteria, you get a message. Then, you can swap for that trip instantly. I did this back in the day that we used Flica for line bidding and open time.

You'll get an answer if the swap was approved instantaneously, so no waiting a day to find out if you need to swap something else.

Also, why should we extend the contract by 2 years at a 1% pay raise, when we should be negotiating the new contract during this time. That would yield the average 3% pay raise from the end of the current contract. We are losing a 2% pay raise for those 2 years.

We are not extending the contract by 2 years. Just one, and we start negotiating at the same time. So we're not really losing anything, unless you think that we would have wrapped up in contract negotiations in 6 months (May 2010, when we opened negotiations, to Nov 2010, when our contract became amendable). Since our contract becomes amendable in Nov 2011 now, we get a 1% pay raise on that day, consistent with the DOS bumps in our contract currently.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Being able to amend the PBS language in a shorter amount of time is a plus. I don't think anyone would disagree that PBS would be added in the next contract otherwise.

 

[aircombat]

all this talk about 4 days. I want to know is there anything that says that they can't assign us all a 3 day with a 2 day attached. I would rather do a 4 day.

 

[777forever]

Too many loopholes? Have you read the TA yet? WTF is up with you ASA people. A bunch of whining, complaining children who think ALPA can solve everything and that the company is out to screw you over every chance they get because they want to hear you complain. Yeah right. If I could get my way, I'd just have those guys impose this without a vote just to torque off the whiners. Unfortunately, I am just one vote. I like the system and think it will be good for me. I can choose what I want to work and am not bound by the rigidity of the current system. Plus, it will make my company (the place where the paychecks come from) more efficient.

Agree 100% With all the effort Skywest Inc has put into improving ASA I can't believe there are still pilots that believe the company is out to get us. Gentlemen, the BEST opportunity to increase your quality of life is growth. ASA best chance of doing that is reducing cost and increasing efficiency. Im not saying to vote in any PBS TA, but to at least give the thing a look with an open mind.

Naps have been eliminated and 4 days increased to reduce cost. PBS will help the company become tremendously more efficient and greatly increase our growth opportunity which will greatly increase our QOL.

Those of you complaining about 4 days and not being able to extend your vacation with PBS will have a lot more to complain about when you're ultimately on reserve, or worse, without a job due to being too costly. I sincerely hope most of you are just the vocal minority.

 

[aircombat]

Is anyone else wondering why they (ALPA) so hell bent on pushing this through right now, before February? What do our union officials know that they aren't telling us? PBS provides nothing to the company until the company starts to grow, so why are they saying this. PBS was thought of very poorly by the association until recently, so what is the general pilot group not seeing here?

The answer to this question is very simple. If you noticed in the last PBS update they said that there will be no furloughs or downgrades due to PBS. Yeah because they have already done them so they can say that. They would have to call the furloughs back during the busy summer schedule if they don't get PBS. It only makes sense since they say we need 10% less pilots and yet they don't need to furlough? Vote no and watch the furloughs come back.