NJA STRONG UNION NEGOTIATOR'S SUMMARY--Part 3

[String Chz]

In order to have a strike, both parties must be released and since the NMB doesn't even have enough Mediators to handle the issue currently on the books, it seem highly unlikely a Mediator would even be assigned to the case for at least 6 to 8 months...if that.

A "Sick-Out" would be an illegal job action and is actively discouraged by the Union and all serious Union members. That would only hurt our cause.

Eventhough the Compnay has chosen to openly violate the CBA, and they have admitted it, the Union will choose not to follow the same path. This will be decided over the everyday economic issues of line flying. Plain (or should I say---PLANE) and simple.

The Company said they are willing to do whatever it takes to defeat us...they have the mney...I hope they are ready to spend it.

 

[abenaki]

h25b--


Eith you are ignorant of the law or are a company mole trying to start something that the company would LOVE us to do which we will absolutely NOT do.

A "sick-out" is illegal--Ask American Airlines how their illegal job action went and what it cost them.

The last thing our leadership wants to hear about is an illegal job action and has come out against anything like this. Anyone who even thinks of this idea is an idiot. Anyone whp participates in such a thing is a fool and is only hurting the union's efforts.

FAMILY GUY--

Are you ever going address using my nickname on these publc boards or am I to assume that I am correct in my assumption about your actions?

You did it to threaten me.....good job, it worked. I feel threatened. Does this make you feel smug and powerful? My background suggests that people who do such things do it out of deeply rooted feelings of insecurity and the need to feel some sense of control over others.

Your character, or the lack thereof, are reflected in your actions and by the fact that thus far, you have ignored my public and private messages to you regarding this issue.

Just want everyone else on here to know about how you stand firmly behind your anonymity while using that anonymity to threaten others. Pretty cowardly, Family Guy.

Furthermore, your credibility suffers as a result of your actions. Why would anyone take stock in what you have to say when your actions reflect such a lack of integrity and character?

 

[Hawkered]

No need to suggest the sky is falling just yet guys!

The last thing we need is a bunch of professioanl airmen turning into Chicken Little.

Stand down...stand down.

 

[Hogprint]

Oh I think Mr. Boisture would be willing to have a 'forensic audit' by a reputable accounting firm.

The more appropriate question is this - is the union willing to spend $12-$15 million on its little treasure hunt and the 4-6 months it requires for a forensic audit?

And then the bonus question - once you get the results and realize that the unions demands are unrealistic and unsustainable, will the union come back down to earth and make REASONABLE requests?

What part of this did you not understand?

Mr. Boisture simply has no stomach for such a review

The company turned this down. They DO NOT want a forensic look at the books by a reputable accounting firm. I repeat for the hard of hearing....THEY TURNED IT DOWN.

So google says it costs X amount of dollars, so it has to be true. It came off the internet!

When and if we ever get the results, I'm sure we'll find our requests are reasonable and sustainable.

 

[abenaki]

"And then the bonus question - once you get the results and realize that the unions demands are unrealistic and unsustainable, will the union come back down to earth and make REASONABLE requests?"

And when will the company come back down to earth and make REASONABLE offers? Ones that AREN'T REGRESSIVE? A pay proposal that is LESS in today's dollars than the contract in 1998, IS NOT REASONABLE!

 

[FAcFriend]

a quick question.

Why are we not using the same pay scale that you have now and just adding a % to it?

Why has the company made these offers using a convoluted pay scale- that few understand. Why not make all 5th year captains make the same pay whether you are 150 on the seniority list or 154th?

I have heard it is because the union wants to be sure seniority is honored and I agree that seniority is important, but if
pilot A starts in January and he gets a 5th year raise in Jan. He will automatically make more money than the B pilot. 5th year pilot who gets a raise on his anniversary in March.

For awhile they make the same- but then pilot A always gets a raise first and will always be ahead some.

Making the formula simple, seems that everyone would understand and be able to look quickly at their raise and know if the salary offer is a good deal.

Makes everyone the same- all pilots get 30% across the board pay raise, 30% retro pay for the past 4 years and the following other work rules: list...

Please note the numbers presented above are made up right now and dont reflect my opinion or anyone elses and are used soley for example purposes.

 

[abenaki]

FAcFriend-

The company wants the "convoluted pay scale" to lessen the effects of having a "bubble" of pilots hit the higher levels of pay all at once. Since there was a lot of hiring of pilots in 2000-2003 or so, there is a "bubble" that will move across the pay scale.

This (silly) matrix system of pay lessens the effects of that bubble. While most companies WANT growth, this one doesn't want to have to pay for the associated labor costs of that growth so they want a seniority percentile scale so that the "bubble effect" is lessened.



To repeat it once more, the pay scale that the company published about a 5th year captain making $80K plus or whatever it was at the 80th percentile or whatever THAT was was DELIBERATELY misleading because in their example, THERE WERE NO FIFTH YEAR PILOTS THAT QUALIFIED FOR THAT PAY RATE AT THAT PERCENTILE.

Now, if that isn't SPIN 101, I don't know what is.

 

[h25b]

h25b--


Eith you are ignorant of the law or are a company mole trying to start something that the company would LOVE us to do which we will absolutely NOT do.

A "sick-out" is illegal--Ask American Airlines how their illegal job action went and what it cost them.

The last thing our leadership wants to hear about is an illegal job action and has come out against anything like this. Anyone who even thinks of this idea is an idiot. Anyone whp participates in such a thing is a fool and is only hurting the union's efforts.

I simply said it would be interesting to see if such an action would change the company's attitude at the bargaining table... I'm very much aware that this is illegal and remember well what happened at AA. And please don't act like you're taking the high and mighty road (trying to scab-list the 135 pilots comes to mind), read the quote below... Sounds like the membership is undertaking a slow down to me... It's no secret what "fly safe" means.

H25B, in fact, the negotiations has just been moved from the Board Room to the Line. Now, 2200+ will do their own form of legal negoitations. Remember, we fly the safest aircraft in the industry.

 

[FAcFriend]

Abe

So you think it is the mgt that came up this convoluted pay scale?
I heard it was the union because it made the seniority thing better. But it doesnt matter- who did it. Who can undo it?

Was the unions proposal using a different scale?

How does your union negotiating committee feel about dumping this pay scale formula and keeping the same one you have now?

How does your union membership feel about it?

 

[Fracster]

Personaly I support the sick out. I wish we would do it. The effect it would have on NJA would greatly trump any financial penalty we would pay.

American was fined 30 Million. I highly doubt we would be fined a 16th of that given the type of operation we fall under and the lack of effect we have on the general public.

 

[CMHTroll]

"And then the bonus question - once you get the results and realize that the unions demands are unrealistic and unsustainable, will the union come back down to earth and make REASONABLE requests?"

And when will the company come back down to earth and make REASONABLE offers? Ones that AREN'T REGRESSIVE? A pay proposal that is LESS in today's dollars than the contract in 1998, IS NOT REASONABLE!

The numbers that have been posted are not regressive but an increase to base pay near 30% when you look at the total compensation picture. The realization that pilots need to come to is the Company will not change it's position and put the company at risk. Once you realize that this management, (from top to bottom,) will not put the company in a downward spiral, then the pilots will have to choose to accept the status quo forever, or send their negotiating team back to the table and finish the deal.

There is still time for Olsen, Gatsa and the rest of the Union to set aside their egos in favor of a positive attitude of investing in pilots future and to quit playing politics. Until they come to that realization and they make the right decision for all pilots, nothing changes. The COmpany has made every effot to get to a fair deal. NetJets pilots need to call Olsen & Gatsta and tell them if you want to stay the way you are forever or to get back to the bargaining table.

 

[abenaki]

The "total compensation picture" is irrelevant if IT DOESN"T APPLY TO THE PILOTS....

If the said increase only increases my pay a few thousand bucks a year, then it doesn't APPLY. Just like the spin put out about the 80% percentile pilot making $80K, if there aren't any pilots that fall in that percentile then it DOESN'T APPLY!

30% is meaningless unless it translates in our paychecks......Get this CMHTROLL--IT DOESN'T.


Let's take YOUR position in the company, adjust YOUR salary BACK to 1998 wages, adjust it by your 30% and it STILL DOESN'T EQUAL THE BUYING POWER OF TODAY.

A fifth year captain here is NOT getting anywhere NEAR a 30% raise and without that, the whole thing is absurd because it does not even adjust for inflation of the 1998 wagers.

 

[abenaki]

FAcFriend-"So you think it is the mgt that came up this convoluted pay scale?
I heard it was the union because it made the seniority thing better. But it doesnt matter- who did it. Who can undo it?"--I believe that the matrix was management's idea but I am not 100% certain about that. I don't hink the company would want to undo it because it would defeat the purpose of lessening the effect of the bubble....that's how I understand it.

Was the unions proposal using a different scale? A different scale or different numbers in the same matrix? Again, I think the latter.

How does your union negotiating committee feel about dumping this pay scale formula and keeping the same one you have now? Got me.....don't know.....haven't asked that specific question and I think they've all gone home for a while.

How does your union membership feel about it? Don't know if that was part of the poll or not so I cannot give you an answer to that question. Sorry.


h25b-

"please don't act like you're taking the high and mighty road (trying to scab-list the 135 pilots comes to mind), read the quote below... Sounds like the membership is undertaking a slow down to me... It's no secret what "fly safe" "
means."

#1- Lots of things are lost in translation on here so if I mistook your tone/inflection/meaing about the sick out, then my apologies.
#2-I did not, personally, suggest or participate in any "135 SCAB list.....I am one individual and in no way represent all the ideas put forth. So, please, don't vent to me about something that I have nothing to do with.
#3-Slowdown? The union has come out very loudly and very specifically that there are to be NO illegal job actions of any kind. Thus far, and I hope perpetually, there have been no illegal actions to my knowledge.

 

[abenaki]

"There is still time for Olsen, Gatsa and the rest of the Union to set aside their egos in favor of a positive attitude of investing in pilots future and to quit playing politics"

And what was the "reverse ultimatum" game of the last 30 days, CMHTROLL? The whole month was nothing but a set-up right out of negotiations 101 in order to create an artificial "deadline" in order to force one side to "negotiate with themselves" while the other side remains essentially pat from their current position.

Egos? You're talking about egos and leave out the whopping ones in management? PULEESE....

Frankly, I'll work under the current contract rather than sign something regressive. And a contract that doesn't offer me more than what I'll make this year IS nothing BUT regressive. Spin it any way you like, there is NO SIGNIFICANT RAISE in the company's proposal for most of us.....and certainly no raise that covers a COLA adjustment.

Management said they have the capital and resources to fight...they have the capital and resources to start NJE and build a $38 million building, hangars in HPN and TEB, and lots of other areas where the profits are sucked out of NJA and YOUR pocket to fund other things so I really don't believe that NJA is in any financial hardship.

 

[CMHTroll]

The "total compensation picture" is irrelevant if IT DOESN"T APPLY TO THE PILOTS....

If the said increase only increases my pay a few thousand bucks a year, then it doesn't APPLY. Just like the spin put out about the 80% percentile pilot making $80K, if there aren't any pilots that fall in that percentile then it DOESN'T APPLY!

30% is meaningless unless it translates in our paychecks......Get this CMHTROLL--IT DOESN'T.


Let's take YOUR position in the company, adjust YOUR salary BACK to 1998 wages, adjust it by your 30% and it STILL DOESN'T EQUAL THE BUYING POWER OF TODAY.

A fifth year captain here is NOT getting anywhere NEAR a 30% raise and without that, the whole thing is absurd because it does not even adjust for inflation of the 1998 wagers.

Abbe, nuke whatever your name is, we have been over this before. What cost $61000 (the wage of a 5 year Captain in 1998) would cost $70685.03 in 2005.
These figures are easy to understand by going to the Bureau of Labor Statistics web site and use the CPI (Consume Price Index) inflation calculator. As for your estimation of Cola at 4.5%, I have only reviewed the numbers since 1998 and they are listed below. (Taken from the Social Security government web site as COLA.) They are the relevant numbers since they directly relate to the duration of the current contract. 1998 1.3%, 1999 2.5%, 2000 3.5%, 2001 2.6%, 2002 1.4%, 2003 2.1%, 2004 2.7%

It is your illogical list of extened "I wants" that is blinding you. Add up all the percentages above and you will realize that it is right in line. Your "raise" includes your cost of living. But then again, I am sure that you won't mind keeping your wages at the same base pay for anoother five year while the Company moves on.

 

[abenaki]

"Abbe, nuke whatever your name is"--thank you for the condescending, disrespectful and patronizing tone of your post Troll....

Let's say I agree with you inflation adjusted numbers.....Is that it? I'll make that this year with the company contract violations, OT and involuntary extended days. I guess the company can afford that because that's what they're paying me now.

Nope....ain't gonna fly, Troll. No matter how I look at it, it's a crapped out Chevy wage in a Rolls Royce segment of the industry. My skills, experience, responsibility, being away from home, etc. are worth a lot more towards "industry average" than the lowest 10th percentile of NBAA standards.

We will never agree, so let's drop it.

And while oyu're at it, how about asking FamilyGuy about using my name on the board as you have now, too.....seems to me that he's hiding about that one.

 

[Dr. Cy Kotic]

Many pilots have expressed to our Negotiating Committee that we keep the status quo over any company offer that is regressive. If the company is having a difficult time then they should lower the pay at NJI to raise additional capital. I have been at Netjets for 12+ years and whatever NJI has in fly-from-home, pay and aircraft I want also. I have witnessed promises first-hand at many a Christmas Party and as of yet, very few if any have materialized concerning NJI. I would really be impressed if NJA would post the pilot wage scale on their website so the customers could have a good look. Maybe even send a brochure out in their marketing material (not the averages taken by combining NJI, NJA, and NJM salaries) and get some feedback from the ones flying in the back. Maybe then mgtmt would have some credibility with me concerning my unrealistic wage requirements.

 

[h25b]

#1- Lots of things are lost in translation on here so if I mistook your tone/inflection/meaing about the sick out, then my apologies.
#2-I did not, personally, suggest or participate in any "135 SCAB list.....I am one individual and in no way represent all the ideas put forth. So, please, don't vent to me about something that I have nothing to do with.
#3-Slowdown? The union has come out very loudly and very specifically that there are to be NO illegal job actions of any kind. Thus far, and I hope perpetually, there have been no illegal actions to my knowledge.

What I was trying to say (in somewhat poor form perhaps) was that by the time anyone gets released to strike the company is going to be well prepared for it. Look at what's going on at NWA with their mechanics. That's exactly what happens when it takes forever to get released. Companies have wised up. I can't see a complete cave-in from the likes of a Berkshire Hathaway company. Never going to happen. A sick out might at least get the company to show their cards early. Taking this whole thing to a legal strike is just giving the company more time to prepare for putting you out on the street for good.

I personally think that you could probably see a significant raise in the overall payscale if you dumped a significant portion of the retro demands. You're never going to see the full retro pay demands AND anything close to what you want on the pay scales.

They've figured out what they're willing to spend on the new CBA already it's basically up to the IBT where they want to spend it. I would take pay and benefits over hitting the street over a fat retro check.

 

[String Chz]

Hey h25B....you really don't have a "dog in this hunt" so we really don't give a rat's tail what you think. Hush!!!!! Will you. You don't have a vote, you have no idea what's its like being one of us. Just sit on the sidelines and watch...I don't care about your past experience.......just shut up!!!!!

 

[CMHTroll]

"
We will never agree, so let's drop it.

And while oyu're at it, how about asking FamilyGuy about using my name on the board as you have now, too.....seems to me that he's hiding about that one.

Agreed, the inflation and wage issue is dropped, and wewill continue to operate NetJets the same way we have for the past 5 years.

Using names on the board is open game is it not? BWY BOB has been named, so why not you?