NJA STRONG UNION NEGOTIATOR'S SUMMARY--Part 3

abenaki

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Does the Pilot’s know the Union agreed in writing to allow NJI to operate separately?

Well, I suspect that most do, and why. But sit back and lets tell the truth. Again, this is where you need to remember that nobody on the Company Negotiations Committee has a clue, they weren’t here. I was! In 1995 Santulli started up a joint Gulfstream deal with Gulfstream Aerospace and a Mr. Ted Forstman. The “God’s Honest Truth”, from the mouth of Richard T. Santulli was that “Teddy can’t stand Unions and he will not do the deal if you guys fly them.” When we entered negotiations in 1997, these same statements were made over and over again “If I have to bring them to EJA, Forstman will cancel the deal and we will not be able to realize the growth for the whole Company” said Santulli. But Rich, do you want us to fly the, on your honor and having never lied to us? “Absolutely, if it was up to me they would be at Columbus” said Rich. In 1998, was aware of an impending deal with Boeing, and he agreed that he would bring them here, to EJA. He stated “The Boeings will pay more than the Gulfstreams, we have 30 on order and this will provide higher pay for everybody here at ratification”. Do the pilots and people of NetJets know that we only had 5 BBJs, that the Company reduced them to 4? Does the employees know that they now have a deal to sell 191QS and only three will remain. He also said that the Gulfstream Operation would never grow more than a couple aircraft a year, that we had no worries about them getting larger. He also stated that with the Gulfstream deal, it made all of EJA that much more attractive, and to please let him “get them started up” and the financial returns for us will be quickly realized and passed on! Now, this was not just the words of Santulli, but in fact were the words of Mr. David Orlinski, as well. Don’t believe me, ask Ted Wright, Dave Roebuck, they were both here as well, unlike “BM” The “Union” allowed the Gulfstreams on very clear conditions of growth for EJA/NJA, for 30 Boeings at the top of the scale, and because Santulli wouldn’t have Gulfstreams if we went after them, “until after the Joint Marketing Agreement” with Gulfstream ended. It has ended, and now is the time. Additionally, the Company is wasting millions on a double managed operation. Are the employees of Columbus unable to manage the Gulfstreams? They manage BBJs all over the world, what could possibly be the difference at this point? Why have to separate management and support staffs? One word folks, EGO! Two words BROKEN PROMISES!

Now “BM” also wants to tell you that bringing the NJI operation here would have no affect on our career paths and goals unless massive attrition or expansion was to occur in the Gulfstream. Well, Santulli lied about the “tiny expansion” of them over the last 7 years, so we should now believe that they wouldn’t expand now? Is that another story? And “BM”, I have told the “Union” a hundred times on this very Message Board how the deal was made and under what circumstances, so yes, we have informed them, maybe you missed it. The “Man of his word” simply wasn’t in 1998, and now that there is no “make believe reason” that they have to be separate, it is time for those “financial returns” or the aircraft themselves. And, speaking of men of their word and moral character, when this same story was relayed to our new hire Mr. Boisture, guess what his response was! Anybody? “Did you get that in writing!” That’s right folks, seems that we have to get Santullis promises in writing because he seems not to be trustworthy. Well Mr. Santulli, that is exactly what we are now doing, getting the NJI operation, in writing, in Section 1, or, the salry scale you have now, “IN WRITING” in Section 27. Not that our contract and it’s legal interpretation means much to such an ethical business anyway, but we are doing what our pilots want, getting it “IN WRITING!” Why shouldn’t we, we have been paying for them and every other far flung investment over the last SEVEN years with our salaries!

“BM” also believes that all the pilots at NJI would come here and be in a Union. Not from what I have read by some of the “Prima Donnas” on other message boards. He also seems to think that their seniority is greater than those here now! Mr. “BM” you need to look at a seniority list and go back and do the math. Could there be a deal with the “Union”, very possibly, would it be one sided, NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

Do the pilots know about the “International Premium Pilot Wage”?

We mentioned it, but as it affects so very few pilots, and more importantly is as big an insult as the NJI operation, we didn’t go into detail. Battery going low, but will continue.
The “IPPW” proposal handed out on Monday for the first time was the convoluted idea that rather than bring the Gulfstreams and their salaries here, they would pay 2000EX pilots more, because they can “reliably fly from New York to London”. So, as it would pay more, you can expect all the senior pilots, 14 year plus, 12 year, etc, to bid the. How much would this career path to the big money pay. $103,000 regardless of your seniority. So if a pilot was here for 17 years say, he would make about $5,000 more a year than he does today, and has at leat 7 years more blood, sweat, and tears “invested” in this Company than the oldest NJI pilot. Want to guess what an NJI pilot with 10 years makes? Depending on which one, but clearly all of them, SUBSTANTIALLY MORE! This is the smoke and mirror “work-around” the NJI issue, pay our pilots far less than any NJI Captain and that will make it better. And, that same NJA pilot could bid a 400XP Beech Junk and make a whooping $1,700.00 a year less than he would as a career goaled “IPPW” pilot. Did “BM” tell you that, look at the charts and see for yourself, we have nothing to hide. Yes “BM” we understood the “benefits” to the pilots, but more importantly we understood the “BENEFIT TO THE COMPANY” and yes, it was rejected. It was rejected before we left the room, but nice try.

Do the pilots know there is no threat to them from NJI?

Surely “BM” you jest! When the G-200s came here, the same Moral and ethical men of their word began playing with them, stating they would go to NJI because they were “Gulfstreams”. What about the Astra’s, will they be the same? What about some future “Gulfstream”? What about doing “International Shuttles”, anything for us in that? Do the pilots, the “Union” recognize the threat, bet your ass Santulli they do, make no mistake! They also recognize the threat of the impending FLOPS deal, the loss of the BBJs, the formation of Scheduled operations by EJM, and the hundred other ways to funnel money to other “divisions” of NJ, Inc., and Berkshire Hathaway. In case you didn’t see it yet “BM”, the number one issue has changes from the surveys of January to the one just completed, SCOPE is now number one on the list! I think they get it!

Did the “Union” tell the pilots that we would drop the salary demands in they came?

Why yes “BM” we did, go back and read my post again, I know you have it. “10 to 12” percent lower with the Gulfstreams. Did you also read the part about just how many millions that equates to each year that Woodbridge is willing to spend for his EGO? That is 20 plus million to keep them separate, plus the costs of double management, per year. Pretty big EGO don’t you think! And for sake of clarity, it was YOUR SIDE that decided not to bring them here, so back to the cost factors of our offer. You and Santulli may have forgotten that 12 percent of our proposal is a cost for NJI, not NJA. NJI is deciding to have that extra $20 MILLION a year be charged to them. We do not claim that cost at all, that expense is one that is made out of the EGO of the CEO and has nothing to do with us. Please remember to take those annual costs out from now on, can you? And “BM”, does the other employees of NJA know that this waste in double management is being spent by NJI but being paid for by NJA? Get an idea about that “Forensic Audit” we offered. Based on the rejection by the Company, I think you do!

Do the pilots know about the 7 and 7?

Why again yes, and I believe you can also read my previous post to figure out the Cost Savings these pilots would be giving the Company. They also know about the so-called “gateway” flying you keep talking about. Need to update your terminology, your confusing people. But you know what else the pilots know? They know that the non-union “prima donnas” at NJI, getting paid substantially more than them, are also enjoying quite a different “Gateway” flying arrangement than your handlers have proposed for the bastard step children at NJA, or, did you really know that? Did you know that new hires at NJI don’t have to live at a pre-determined location like you propose for us? Did you know that they have no time arrival deal at a pre-determined airport to fly “from home”? And, did you know that our current Section 13 is Tentative based on our clearly stated intentions, from day one, to have NJI in our operation. You may want to start calculating the costs of losing your “RCA” concept in that same dollars that EGO is going to spend, cause I don’t think we can ask the “Union” to accept a home basing plan that is discriminatory from a reference of what NJI has, just something to look forward to. Quite simply Mr. “BM”, the PILOTS of this UNION fully understand every part of NJI, they understand the continued insult, the real loss of JOBS and CAREER POTENTIAL, and they have “pulled our strings”, and what you see is what you get. When the Deceit and Spin is ready to make way to serious talks. When EGO is ready to take a back seat to simple common good business decisions, they know where to reach us, but otherwise, thanks for another 5 gallon can of gasoline for the fire, you truly help.

END
 
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Fracster

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True. Those lemmings are sitting in their cubicles as we speak trying to come up with intelligent retorts to the truth. Bring it on lemmings. Spin this one into another episode of "bad pilot, great management".
 

Publishers

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This whole thing just says that there is an acrimony that would be difficult to overcome, that what you want is probably not achievable, and really everyone should just go home and start again.

You get to a point in negotiations where it just does not matter anymore. What difference does it make whether the company made X or accounted for expense Y is some manner to you.

What matters is what could they pay today if they set up a new company and went right from where you are now. In short, if none of you were there and there was no history whatsoever,, what kind of wages would be achievable and still fill the slots and get the job done.

In the end, it makes no difference at all whether that could be done and make a lot of money or a little money.

Maybe, what they said regarding the BBJ's was what they believed and it has not worked out as a viable aircraft in there program so they dump them. Should they not do that to please you and live up to what they said. I am sure that Frostman and Gulfstream set the rules for EJI and meant them. The basics were you were not getting the Gulfstreams no matter what so to translate that statement as we did this quid pro quo is pie in the sky. Do you think the company is turning down the BBJ business cause of your contract?????

Seeing these three posts says to me we have no grasp of what we can get here nor what we should take. It is more a pissing match and you are not headed in a positive way.
 

x402

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Publishers said:
This whole thing just says that there is an acrimony that would be difficult to overcome, that what you want is probably not achievable, and really everyone should just go home and start again.

You get to a point in negotiations where it just does not matter anymore. What difference does it make whether the company made X or accounted for expense Y is some manner to you.

What matters is what could they pay today if they set up a new company and went right from where you are now. In short, if none of you were there and there was no history whatsoever,, what kind of wages would be achievable and still fill the slots and get the job done.

In the end, it makes no difference at all whether that could be done and make a lot of money or a little money.

Maybe, what they said regarding the BBJ's was what they believed and it has not worked out as a viable aircraft in there program so they dump them. Should they not do that to please you and live up to what they said. I am sure that Frostman and Gulfstream set the rules for EJI and meant them. The basics were you were not getting the Gulfstreams no matter what so to translate that statement as we did this quid pro quo is pie in the sky. Do you think the company is turning down the BBJ business cause of your contract?????

Seeing these three posts says to me we have no grasp of what we can get here nor what we should take. It is more a pissing match and you are not headed in a positive way.

Unfortunately this genie won't go back in the bottle, and the tone of the negotiation has gotten worse.
We keep working while mgt shows zero interest in resolving this stand off. It is nearing the end, one way or the other. An observation, not a threat.
 

TurboJetCpt

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Hey HACKS, your silence is deafening.
Amazing, the TRUTH has stopped them in their place.
 

Diesel

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oh no turbojetcpt they are cutting and pasting and calling us childish. it's fun to watch but the sad part is we are the only ones with a say.
 

squonk

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My guess is they're checking in with the mother ship to get their stories straight and get the talking points.

That or blinded by the truth.
 

seethecircus

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There is no doubt the pilots deserve a raise...it goes without saying...and a substantial one at that. I do not have access to the current pay scale and without it I can only speculate based on the "alledged" proposal posted on the company intranet. So I at least know what I don't know, but the scale I have seen shows pretty clearly that if the hiring goes as stated (which is a pretty big if I know) a 5 yr capt today would end up with a 17% raise next year. I made an assumption of seniority #1200 so that I would stay below the 50%. I can only hope that the pay scale I saw shows an increase of at least that much for the current 5 yr. captain. If it doesn't then I can most certainly see the reason for the hostility shown in Mr. Gasta's post to all.

As for scope, since the advent of 91k I personally can see no reason why the two companies shouldn't be merged...it would only provide more job security for all. However, having seen what I have seen on the boards and in the company emails, I am afraid it is going to be a very long and bitter fight. I know you are all ready to hold out as long it takes, but I don't (personally) see any way that you will get what you are looking for in this area. The compnay seems to be adamant that they will never give in on this either. Wouldn't it be better to just right it into scope that NJI can only operate GIV, GIV-SP, G450, GV, and G550 aircraft.

Yes, I know I don't have a vote, but I am worried about the hundreds of support people (myself included) that mostly likely will lose their jobs if this ever gets to a prolonged strike. The only people that may still have a job if it comes to that are the owner services folks. What would be the need for dispatchers, or schedulers, or crew services or maintenance for that matter if no QS tails are in the air?

edited to get the name correct...sorry Mr. Gasta
 
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FamilyGuy

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abenaki said:
Hello Pilots, Flight Attendants, Company Employees, and Management

My name is Tom Gasta...I have flown the Bargaining Table at 4 different Union and Company Negotiations sessions over the last 17 years as well....

So when you read statements from the "Bridgeway Moron" (BM) sending you pages...

...WTFO?...


...BM" also believes that all the pilots at NJI would come here and be in a Union. Not from what I have read by some of the "Prima Donnas" on other message boards....

...just how many millions that equates to each year that Woodbridge is willing to spend for his EGO? That is 20 plus million to keep them separate, plus the costs of double management, per year. Pretty big EGO don’t you think!...

...They know that the non-union "prima donnas" at NJI, getting paid substantially more than them, are also enjoying quite a different "Gateway" flying arrangement than your handlers have proposed for the bastard step children at NJA...


When the Deceit and Spin is ready to make way to serious talks. When EGO is ready to take a back seat to simple common good business decisions, they know where to reach us, but otherwise, thanks for another 5 gallon can of gasoline for the fire, you truly help.

This just confirms what I had suspected for some time now....that emotion and spite have taken over these negotiations.

I'm disappointed that someone with 17 years of 'experience' at negotiating agreements could make an elementary negotiating mistake and allow himself to get dragged into a personal battle of wills instead of remaining objective and focusing on securing a better future for his constituents.

It is also disheartening to see someone with this much experience, who undoubtably considers himself a professional, stooping to sophmoric name calling and insulting fellow employees.

As dispatcher already pointed out, this missive was addressed to everyone in the company...surely he could pull himself together and compose a brief, professional rebuttal to the company's letters.

This rant, while it may play to the emotions of the pilot group, just serves to undermine the effectiveness of the pilots points.
 

Hawkered

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I say it's game, set and match for Family Guy on this one. This is just pure union ranting. Leaving the AFL-CIO is not going to help The Teamsters, but putting an end to out of control rants like this ones might.
 
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Diesel

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4 years of negotiating will do that to you. It's an honest assestment of what is going on.

This rant, while it may play to the emotions of the pilot group, just serves to undermine the effectiveness of the pilots points.

Effectiveness to whom? You? It doesn't matter you can't vote and have no control over it.

The fight is with managment.
 

FamilyGuy

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abenaki said:
In 1998, was aware of an impending deal with Boeing, and he agreed that he would bring them here, to EJA. He stated “The Boeings will pay more than the Gulfstreams, we have 30 on order and this will provide higher pay for everybody here at ratification”. Do the pilots and people of NetJets know that we only had 5 BBJs, that the Company reduced them to 4? Does the employees know that they now have a deal to sell 191QS and only three will remain.

Even the best laid plans are subject to the vagaries of the economy. There are a good number of pilots here that came over from the airlines....ask them. I'm sure they've seen a lot of planes ordered and cancelled because the economy tanked.

The simple fact is that the BBJ's hit the market too late. By the time we received our first one (2001) the dot-com bubble had burst and the economy was heading downward. The market for a plane this large simply dried up. Over the last 4 years the BBJ's have not been successful in the fractional market....every pilot out there knows this. Should we as a company continue to take deliveries of a very expensive aircraft that is not selling?

abenaki said:
He also said that the Gulfstream Operation would never grow more than a couple aircraft a year, that we had no worries about them getting larger. He also stated that with the Gulfstream deal, it made all of EJA that much more attractive, and to please let him “get them started up” and the financial returns for us will be quickly realized and passed on! Now, this was not just the words of Santulli, but in fact were the words of Mr. David Orlinski, as well. Don’t believe me, ask Ted Wright, Dave Roebuck, they were both here as well, unlike “BM” The “Union” allowed the Gulfstreams on very clear conditions of growth for EJA/NJA, for 30 Boeings at the top of the scale, and because Santulli wouldn’t have Gulfstreams if we went after them

I love all this hindsight wisdom.

NJI has 48 aircraft. NJA has 359 aircraft. Its very clear where the majority of the growth has gone since 1998.

How many aircraft are on order for NJA vs NJI?

It looks like NJA has clearly benefited from the growth.

abenaki said:

Now “BM” also wants to tell you that bringing the NJI operation here would have no affect on our career paths and goals unless massive attrition or expansion was to occur in the Gulfstream. Well, Santulli lied about the “tiny expansion” of them over the last 7 years, so we should now believe that they wouldn’t expand now? Is that another story?

See previous comments. It should be clear to all that NJA's growth has greatly exceeded NJI's.
 

Hogprint

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Funny how the moles can only snipe at Brother Gasta's presentation of the facts but cannot or will not compare the company's presentation to this.

Better shut off the Buckeye game and do some brainstorming this weekend boys. You've got a lot of ground to cover.
 

FamilyGuy

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Hogprint said:
Funny how the moles can only snipe at Brother Gasta's presentation of the facts but cannot or will not compare the company's presentation to this.

Better shut off the Buckeye game and do some brainstorming this weekend boys. You've got a lot of ground to cover.

What are we to compare the company's proposal to?

The company has provided data, tables, and information.

The union has provided a 7 page rant filled with emotion, insults, name calling, and acronyms for profanity.

Where's the data to compare against the company's information?
 
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Hogprint

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The Minister of Misinformation posted:

Where's the data to compare against the company's information?

Read again Minister:


We are without a third party “accounting review”. Yes we are, sure enough. First everyone should know that the Company asked for and the Union agreed to postpone the review throughout the last 30 days. When “BM” says the “Union”, I think he still thinks of that as the Negotiating Committee or the Executive Counsel. He clearly has no idea that the “Union” is the 2200 of you, including the “5% trouble makers” and the “7%” who seem to think life is well. But just as Bill Boisture is a puppet dancing to the string pulls from Woodbridge and maybe even Omaha, we, the Negotiating Committee, are also just employees, and our strings are pulled by our 2200 boss men as well. When we tell the Company that we are not interested in a cursory financial audit, we are telling them that you, the “Union” told us, as late as last week that you don’t care what the survey would reveal, and more importantly, you do not believe the shell game of vendors, third party interests, Marquis, EJM, etc., can be audited anyway. What “BM” didn’t tell you is that when the Company questioned us about the “Financial Audit” on Monday, we responded with an offer to complete such a review, but, it would not be cursory. We told him that any audit that would have any credibility with the “Union” would have to be a very serious forensic audit, that we would not question the math on the books, but rather look for where the profits are spent, who is getting them, and why. Mr. Boisture simply has no stomach for such a review.


Seems Mr. Bill doesn't want to play ball. I wonder why?
 
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FamilyGuy

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Hogprint said:
The Minister of Misinformation posted:

Read again Minister:

Seems Mr. Bill doesn't want to play ball. I wonder why?

Oh I think Mr. Boisture would be willing to have a 'forensic audit' by a reputable accounting firm.

The more appropriate question is this - is the union willing to spend $12-$15 million on its little treasure hunt and the 4-6 months it requires for a forensic audit?

And then the bonus question - once you get the results and realize that the unions demands are unrealistic and unsustainable, will the union come back down to earth and make REASONABLE requests?
 

h25b

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The information posted here is very interesting. Unfortunately, it changes nothing at the negotiating table.

It sounds like the company is more than willing to try and outlast a strike rather than give in to the entire list of demands. While the wisdom of that is questionable, I'd have to say it's a fact...

You've been lied to, get over it... Happens every day in the real world... I'm starting to wonder if a sick out for one day would change their stance. It's obvious that they are putting together a plan for the strike (that doesn't include you coming back), but a sick out tomorrow might scare them straight... But then you get to deal with the owners. There lies the problem.. The airline guys do it but don't have to serve coffee to the passengers either.
 
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String Chz

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H25B, in fact, the negotiations has just been moved from the Board Room to the Line. Now, 2200+ will do their own form of legal negoitations. Remember, we fly the safest aircraft in the industry.
 

h25b

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String Chz said:
H25B, in fact, the negotiations has just been moved from the Board Room to the Line. Now, 2200+ will do their own form of legal negoitations. Remember, we fly the safest aircraft in the industry.

Been watching this out of morbid curiosity for years now and I wouldn't bet a dime that anything meaningful is going to come out of the negotiating sessions. It would be interesting however to see what happens if there was a huge sick-out one day.

The union members that sit around saying, "give us what we want or we'll just wait for the strike" are foolish. That's just like some kids on the playground, take a swing or shut up... If nothing's been accomplished and a strike occurs, you're finished.
 
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