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NJA STRONG UNION NEGOTIATOR'S SUMMARY--Part 3

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abenaki said:
"And then the bonus question - once you get the results and realize that the unions demands are unrealistic and unsustainable, will the union come back down to earth and make REASONABLE requests?"

And when will the company come back down to earth and make REASONABLE offers? Ones that AREN'T REGRESSIVE? A pay proposal that is LESS in today's dollars than the contract in 1998, IS NOT REASONABLE!

The numbers that have been posted are not regressive but an increase to base pay near 30% when you look at the total compensation picture. The realization that pilots need to come to is the Company will not change it's position and put the company at risk. Once you realize that this management, (from top to bottom,) will not put the company in a downward spiral, then the pilots will have to choose to accept the status quo forever, or send their negotiating team back to the table and finish the deal.

There is still time for Olsen, Gatsa and the rest of the Union to set aside their egos in favor of a positive attitude of investing in pilots future and to quit playing politics. Until they come to that realization and they make the right decision for all pilots, nothing changes. The COmpany has made every effot to get to a fair deal. NetJets pilots need to call Olsen & Gatsta and tell them if you want to stay the way you are forever or to get back to the bargaining table.
 
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The "total compensation picture" is irrelevant if IT DOESN"T APPLY TO THE PILOTS....

If the said increase only increases my pay a few thousand bucks a year, then it doesn't APPLY. Just like the spin put out about the 80% percentile pilot making $80K, if there aren't any pilots that fall in that percentile then it DOESN'T APPLY!

30% is meaningless unless it translates in our paychecks......Get this CMHTROLL--IT DOESN'T.


Let's take YOUR position in the company, adjust YOUR salary BACK to 1998 wages, adjust it by your 30% and it STILL DOESN'T EQUAL THE BUYING POWER OF TODAY.

A fifth year captain here is NOT getting anywhere NEAR a 30% raise and without that, the whole thing is absurd because it does not even adjust for inflation of the 1998 wagers.
 
FAcFriend-"So you think it is the mgt that came up this convoluted pay scale?
I heard it was the union because it made the seniority thing better. But it doesnt matter- who did it. Who can undo it?"--I believe that the matrix was management's idea but I am not 100% certain about that. I don't hink the company would want to undo it because it would defeat the purpose of lessening the effect of the bubble....that's how I understand it.

Was the unions proposal using a different scale? A different scale or different numbers in the same matrix? Again, I think the latter.

How does your union negotiating committee feel about dumping this pay scale formula and keeping the same one you have now? Got me.....don't know.....haven't asked that specific question and I think they've all gone home for a while.

How does your union membership feel about it? Don't know if that was part of the poll or not so I cannot give you an answer to that question. Sorry.


h25b-

"please don't act like you're taking the high and mighty road (trying to scab-list the 135 pilots comes to mind), read the quote below... Sounds like the membership is undertaking a slow down to me... It's no secret what "fly safe" "
means."

#1- Lots of things are lost in translation on here so if I mistook your tone/inflection/meaing about the sick out, then my apologies.
#2-I did not, personally, suggest or participate in any "135 SCAB list.....I am one individual and in no way represent all the ideas put forth. So, please, don't vent to me about something that I have nothing to do with.
#3-Slowdown? The union has come out very loudly and very specifically that there are to be NO illegal job actions of any kind. Thus far, and I hope perpetually, there have been no illegal actions to my knowledge.
 
"There is still time for Olsen, Gatsa and the rest of the Union to set aside their egos in favor of a positive attitude of investing in pilots future and to quit playing politics"

And what was the "reverse ultimatum" game of the last 30 days, CMHTROLL? The whole month was nothing but a set-up right out of negotiations 101 in order to create an artificial "deadline" in order to force one side to "negotiate with themselves" while the other side remains essentially pat from their current position.

Egos? You're talking about egos and leave out the whopping ones in management? PULEESE....

Frankly, I'll work under the current contract rather than sign something regressive. And a contract that doesn't offer me more than what I'll make this year IS nothing BUT regressive. Spin it any way you like, there is NO SIGNIFICANT RAISE in the company's proposal for most of us.....and certainly no raise that covers a COLA adjustment.

Management said they have the capital and resources to fight...they have the capital and resources to start NJE and build a $38 million building, hangars in HPN and TEB, and lots of other areas where the profits are sucked out of NJA and YOUR pocket to fund other things so I really don't believe that NJA is in any financial hardship.
 
abenaki said:
The "total compensation picture" is irrelevant if IT DOESN"T APPLY TO THE PILOTS....
abenaki said:

If the said increase only increases my pay a few thousand bucks a year, then it doesn't APPLY. Just like the spin put out about the 80% percentile pilot making $80K, if there aren't any pilots that fall in that percentile then it DOESN'T APPLY!

30% is meaningless unless it translates in our paychecks......Get this CMHTROLL--IT DOESN'T.


Let's take YOUR position in the company, adjust YOUR salary BACK to 1998 wages, adjust it by your 30% and it STILL DOESN'T EQUAL THE BUYING POWER OF TODAY.

A fifth year captain here is NOT getting anywhere NEAR a 30% raise and without that, the whole thing is absurd because it does not even adjust for inflation of the 1998 wagers.


Abbe, nuke whatever your name is, we have been over this before. What cost $61000 (the wage of a 5 year Captain in 1998) would cost $70685.03 in 2005.
These figures are easy to understand by going to the Bureau of Labor Statistics web site and use the CPI (Consume Price Index) inflation calculator. As for your estimation of Cola at 4.5%, I have only reviewed the numbers since 1998 and they are listed below. (Taken from the Social Security government web site as COLA.) They are the relevant numbers since they directly relate to the duration of the current contract. 1998 1.3%, 1999 2.5%, 2000 3.5%, 2001 2.6%, 2002 1.4%, 2003 2.1%, 2004 2.7%


It is your illogical list of extened "I wants" that is blinding you. Add up all the percentages above and you will realize that it is right in line. Your "raise" includes your cost of living. But then again, I am sure that you won't mind keeping your wages at the same base pay for anoother five year while the Company moves on.
 
"Abbe, nuke whatever your name is"--thank you for the condescending, disrespectful and patronizing tone of your post Troll....

Let's say I agree with you inflation adjusted numbers.....Is that it? I'll make that this year with the company contract violations, OT and involuntary extended days. I guess the company can afford that because that's what they're paying me now.

Nope....ain't gonna fly, Troll. No matter how I look at it, it's a crapped out Chevy wage in a Rolls Royce segment of the industry. My skills, experience, responsibility, being away from home, etc. are worth a lot more towards "industry average" than the lowest 10th percentile of NBAA standards.

We will never agree, so let's drop it.

And while oyu're at it, how about asking FamilyGuy about using my name on the board as you have now, too.....seems to me that he's hiding about that one.
 
Many pilots have expressed to our Negotiating Committee that we keep the status quo over any company offer that is regressive. If the company is having a difficult time then they should lower the pay at NJI to raise additional capital. I have been at Netjets for 12+ years and whatever NJI has in fly-from-home, pay and aircraft I want also. I have witnessed promises first-hand at many a Christmas Party and as of yet, very few if any have materialized concerning NJI. I would really be impressed if NJA would post the pilot wage scale on their website so the customers could have a good look. Maybe even send a brochure out in their marketing material (not the averages taken by combining NJI, NJA, and NJM salaries) and get some feedback from the ones flying in the back. Maybe then mgtmt would have some credibility with me concerning my unrealistic wage requirements.
 
abenaki said:
#1- Lots of things are lost in translation on here so if I mistook your tone/inflection/meaing about the sick out, then my apologies.
#2-I did not, personally, suggest or participate in any "135 SCAB list.....I am one individual and in no way represent all the ideas put forth. So, please, don't vent to me about something that I have nothing to do with.
#3-Slowdown? The union has come out very loudly and very specifically that there are to be NO illegal job actions of any kind. Thus far, and I hope perpetually, there have been no illegal actions to my knowledge.

What I was trying to say (in somewhat poor form perhaps) was that by the time anyone gets released to strike the company is going to be well prepared for it. Look at what's going on at NWA with their mechanics. That's exactly what happens when it takes forever to get released. Companies have wised up. I can't see a complete cave-in from the likes of a Berkshire Hathaway company. Never going to happen. A sick out might at least get the company to show their cards early. Taking this whole thing to a legal strike is just giving the company more time to prepare for putting you out on the street for good.

I personally think that you could probably see a significant raise in the overall payscale if you dumped a significant portion of the retro demands. You're never going to see the full retro pay demands AND anything close to what you want on the pay scales.

They've figured out what they're willing to spend on the new CBA already it's basically up to the IBT where they want to spend it. I would take pay and benefits over hitting the street over a fat retro check.
 
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Hey h25B....you really don't have a "dog in this hunt" so we really don't give a rat's tail what you think. Hush!!!!! Will you. You don't have a vote, you have no idea what's its like being one of us. Just sit on the sidelines and watch...I don't care about your past experience.......just shut up!!!!!
 
abenaki said:
"
We will never agree, so let's drop it.

And while oyu're at it, how about asking FamilyGuy about using my name on the board as you have now, too.....seems to me that he's hiding about that one.

Agreed, the inflation and wage issue is dropped, and wewill continue to operate NetJets the same way we have for the past 5 years.

Using names on the board is open game is it not? BWY BOB has been named, so why not you?
 
String Chz said:
Hey h25B....you really don't have a "dog in this hunt" so we really don't give a rat's tail what you think. Hush!!!!! Will you. You don't have a vote, you have no idea what's its like being one of us. Just sit on the sidelines and watch...I don't care about your past experience.......just shut up!!!!!

Not another one of you guys... If you all don't care what those of us without a "dog in the hunt" think why do you even post on this board ? Especially since the union has a private board. Go there and sing to the choir if you like, otherwise I believe you need to "hush"... Every payday I'm thankful I have no idea what it's like to be one of you. :D I support anyone trying to get a raise, it's good for everyone and Heaven knows all this industry needs is another 2200 pilots on the street.

The truth is sometimes hard to hear, I understand. :rolleyes:
 
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If you NJA yo-yo's hadn't demanded AA 777 CA pay four years ago you would be working under a contract and have a foot to stand on. You guys made your own beds. Now wet them.
 
crap if AA 777 ca pay is 100k at year 5 we're all screwed.
 
CMHTroll said:
Agreed, the inflation and wage issue is dropped, and wewill continue to operate NetJets the same way we have for the past 5 years

Ya you wish. By the way what happened to the daily line stats??? Maybe all is not well on the good ship NJA huh?!?
Keep your head in the sand.
 
h25b said:
Not another one of you guys... If you all don't care what those of us without a "dog in the hunt" think why do you even post on this board?

Dont worry, they tell me I dont a have dog in this hunt either, yet it is my aircraft, my job, my benefits they clearly want to take away from me.

Of course its all in the name of job protection. Its ironic that Airline Pilots at the mainline (larger groups) have scope clauses to protect the premium wages, and restrict the regional (low pay, smaller groups) jets. Here you have the flip; the low paying guys (larger group) want to scope out the small (yet higher paying) guys.

Who would have thought...
 
BWY BOB WAS NAMED?? When? Who is he?


A buddy of mine had trouble booking a charter flight on Friday. All of the operaters said that they were already flying for NJA.
 
Troll--or whatever YOUR name is....


Bridegway Bob is not a participant on this board as far as I know......

I did not mention Bridgeway Bob's name on this board.....

I would expect the same respect from you, FamilyGuy and whomever....

But apparently, mutual respect, character and integrity are not part of your make-up as evidenced by naming me on the board and by your response.

Cowards stand behind anonymity.......If you, FamilyGuy or whomever had any courage, you'd PM me with your names and the reason you think it's OK to put my name on here. Rationalizing that Bridgeway Bob, who sends out anonymus messages the are "company official" is a far cry from one individual participating on a public message board.

Your rationale is just that.....rationale that doesn't hold water, lacks respect and reflects on your own lack of character.
 
abenaki said:
The "total compensation picture" is irrelevant if IT DOESN"T APPLY TO THE PILOTS....

If the said increase only increases my pay a few thousand bucks a year, then it doesn't APPLY. Just like the spin put out about the 80% percentile pilot making $80K, if there aren't any pilots that fall in that percentile then it DOESN'T APPLY!

30% is meaningless unless it translates in our paychecks......Get this CMHTROLL--IT DOESN'T.


Let's take YOUR position in the company, adjust YOUR salary BACK to 1998 wages, adjust it by your 30% and it STILL DOESN'T EQUAL THE BUYING POWER OF TODAY.

A fifth year captain here is NOT getting anywhere NEAR a 30% raise and without that, the whole thing is absurd because it does not even adjust for inflation of the 1998 wagers.

Abe-

THe pilots need REAL changes in their paychecks. I agree. The other stuff, extra $$ for contract violations etc. that wont change- I am talking, and I think you are too- changes to your base salary, changes to your per diem.

Why mgt and NC have made changes to the rest of the contract that cost money and take up precious dollars that could be in your paycheck, I dont know.

Personally, I am not as "principled" as you when it comes to my paycheck. If my W-2 said i made 65k last year, and it says I made 75k this year, I take that as a real increase. Real dollars in my pocket

I am sure it gets more difficult to read when you w-2 has OT, contract violations etc in it. You are looking at a number and your w-2 and it doesnt compute. And since the wage scales are not the same, it doesnt compute that way either. There has to be way to compare- apples to apples.
 
Just curious,and no i don't work for Netjets, is it possible for the company to put new aircraft into non-union pilot's hands? In other words, Gulfstreams Part II but with any new orders, to "circumnavigate" the contract issues?


"just come in high and add 5 knots"
 
FLYLOW22 said:
BWY BOB WAS NAMED?? When? Who is he?
He's the "moron" named in Gasta's report (very professional) that Abneki so kindly forwarded to us. Good acting job though "flylow". Also, interesting that Abneki would forward others names to everyone, but is concerned about his name on this site.

FLYLOW22 said:
A buddy of mine had trouble booking a charter flight on Friday. All of the operaters said that they were already flying for NJA.

Relax "doctor spin". Yes, your "legal" job actions do drive up subcontract costs. Surprise surprise
 
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You're Right--

Would you please elaborate on your statement? When and where did I forward "others names to everyone"? At no such time did I do anything that revealed ANYONE'S names. Nor WOULD I reveal anyone's name(s). If you are referring to Gasta's post, that was very publically distributed in various venues. My posting his summary here is not exactly revealing something that was not well-distributed via other means. So, I do not understand your accusation and consider it false.


You said:
"Also, interesting that Abneki would forward others names to everyone, but is concerned about his name on this site. "
 
FamilyGuy, Troll et al:

I had to wonder a while why you would reveal my name on here. Troll's excuse that Bridgeway Bob's name was revealed so why shouldn't mine sounds like a a child at the playground who threw sand at someone in their sandbox because they saw one of their parent's do something innappropriate. As I said, I didn't reveal Bridgeway Bob's name nor have I used it in any of my posts. So, that reason is completely fabricated out of nothing to justify a behavior.

Going beyond that, my posts are always respectful and when I err, I offer my apologies and admit my mistake(s). So, I don't think it's because I have offended anyone not that that would give an excuse for what you did.

So, it comes down to you wanting me to feel threatened. And, as I have admitted, I now feel threatened. Perhaps, as I have said, this makes you somehow feel powerful and smug in your knowledge of who I am as you stand behind your (cowardly) anonymity.

Then I had to ask myself, "Why would you want to threaten ANYONE? What can be gained by threatening someone and inducing anxiety and fear in someone? What motivates someone to do that besides what I said in the above paragraph?"

As I said above, my posts are respectful and I admit it when I make a mistake, so I don't think it's me, per se', who has done anything to warrant your putting my name on here.

Perhaps I am simply a target to vent your frustrations upon. I am an NJA pilot so if you can do something to harm me in some way, perhaps it's expressing some kind of vengeance on the group as a whole. You're frustrated, angry and upset so that has to go somewhere and I was a convenient target so FIRE ONE! HIT! Do you feel better now?

I wonder if you asked yourselves what the effects would be by your doing so beyond the desire to scare me? Am I and other pilots more likely to look upon you and management more favorably, or am I and other pilots going to be even MORE suspicious and watchful of what spews out of CMH? Are you trying to develop an ally or alienate me/us even more? What do you think is the likely reaction? Can you honestly say that you did something positive by doing what you did? Are you proud of making someone feel threatened while you stand behind your anonymity?

And what does your behavior do to the credibility of what you have to say? it certainly reflects badly upon your character and integrity and says that you will stoop pretty low to achieve your goals. Is this how you want to be perceived?

Whatever the result of your doing so, whether nothing or whether I am now targeted somehow in CMH, I know that someday all will be revealed. If I am harmed in any way because of your actions, there will be justice.

It's really too bad that it has come to this kind of thing. I am truly sorry that you felt such anger and frustration that you felt you needed to do this to someone whom you don't even know.

I hope that we all come out of this able to smile. This will end someday. In the meantime, you guys take care of yourselves. Stress is a killer and needs to be managed properly or it can have some serious effects. Be good to yourselves and your families 'cause in the end, it's certainly not worth this having harmed your marriages/families OR yourselves in any way.

God bless us all and help us all to get through this ordeal.
 
Diesel said:
oh no turbojetcpt they are cutting and pasting and calling us childish. it's fun to watch but the sad part is we are the only ones with a say.

Diesel, again, I say this with the opinion that you are one of the smartest guys on this board, I really respect you no-nonsense, straight-forward posts, they really cut thru the cr@p.

Do you really think that YOU have a say? Does being in the Union really give you that sense of empowerment and control? From the outside it looks like you really can make anything happen or effect any changes at the company. Of course you can say 'no' to their offers, but that just benefits Netjets (dragging out gives them more time at the old pay. Retro, shmetro, right now its more cash-flow).

It just seems like alot of flag waving, shouting and puffing up your chests, with nothing really to do.

Ace
 
Ace-

Thanks for the nice word's but it's just my new england attitude that makes it interesting.

We do have a say of what goes on. You can have a bigger say by volunteering for different comittee's or staying active on our union message boards. The union message boards act as a constant poll for our union leaders to understand on a day to day basis of what the pilots want.

I do think i have a say. I'm a volunteer for a couple of different comittees and I am very very active in the union message board. Everyday the union leadership is on the messageboard posting and answering questions on what is going on day to day.

Everything is not rosey and shiny on the message board and that is what makes it so useful. A lot of guys get questions answered by the top of the union leadership and their questions/anger turns into understanding. The power of information.

So yes i do believe i have a say because they are elected officials and right now they are doing what myself and the majority of the pilots want from them.

Hope this helps. Gotta walk the dog.

D
 
Thanks, it just seems like a long road with very little intermediate movement. It must be frustrating. I guess I'm used to walking into the boss's office and walking out with a better deal, or a trip to the unemployment line.

Diesel said:
Hope this helps. Gotta walk the dog.
D

Is that a euphemism for something else? Like I need to go water the horse?

:)
 
Abe

I have looked and looked and I still cant find your name.
and I cant figure out who said they would post it.

I also agree- that gasta is showing his --- in the letter to the pilots...sometimes i think he doesnt realize you guys have read union 101 too.
 
Diesel said:
it's just my new england attitude that makes it interesting.

That attitude isn't helping Brady down in my beloved "Old North State" today. 17-10 at the half, bless those Panthers. Yes Im stuck in a hotel and bored to tears.




[Of course I reserve the right to delete this post in 2 hours if they lose]
 
Walk the dog-

Irish euphamism for going to the local pub, drinking till i go blind while watching the pats/sox/celtics/bruins, getting a slice from the pizza guy around the corner who looks like Bin Laden but makes a great slice, stumble back to the apartment only for a friend to call and say the pats/sox/celtics/bruins are playing lets go watch at the pub.
 
abenaki said:
FamilyGuy, Troll et al:

I had to wonder a while why you would reveal my name on here.
drama
drama
drama
God bless us all and help us all to get through this ordeal.

Abneki- Honestly, you are your own worst enemy in this so called "disclosure" issue. How is it that the entire message board knows this but you don't. Stop blaming and fearing; dig deep and you (like the rest of us already have--months ago) will find the truth about your "disclosure" problem. For your own health, relax, in "the big picture" no one really cares who you are (it's not about you).

On the other had, since you are apparently the informal spokesman for Mr. Gasta and his cohorts, why don't you show how the latest company offer was so far off and maybe we can "all get through this ordeal". Not an emotional diatribe, like Mr. Gasta's panic report, but something constructive so we can all go back to work. All I hear (from both sides) on these boards is criticism, but no one offers solutions. What would you suggest?
 

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