nja owner tell me this ?

[pers-headwall]

Competition? why would I want competition in my industry. What were you "pro-competition" nabobs doing in Econ. 101. We don't want competition. We want demand to outstrip our supply of fractional jets, so we can charge exorbitant rates and all get rich. Get some remedial training on economics!

 

[netjetwife]

While we're getting back to basics, I'd like to point out that there are more "have-nots" than "haves". That being those who have enough money to be your pax. So while your picture looks rosy, I don't think it's too realistic. Sorry, PH.

With selection comes competition--an economic fact. I hope that frac pilots can view it with a friendly attitude and realize that a healthy amount can be an antidote to complacency, which leads to a reduction in service and does no one any good.

Frac pilots and their families have much in common. Please bring back the spirit of kinsmanship that Hogprint posted about. Your combined efforts could change the industry and make it the career you all deserve to have.

A note to my critics: check the dictionary. The word "deserve" doesn't have the negative connotation--asking for a handout-- that has been erroneously assigned to it. It actually means payment is due for something that has already been earned. The example given applies to frac pilot wages perfectly. To be worthy of; merit. See synonyms at earn. "You deserve a promotion after all the hard work you have done" NJW

 

[gunfyter]

Competition? why would I want competition in my industry. What were you "pro-competition" nabobs doing in Econ. 101. We don't want competition. We want demand to outstrip our supply of fractional jets, so we can charge exorbitant rates and all get rich. Get some remedial training on economics!

We want competition for pilot jobs. Which will occur if demand outstrips supply of fractional jets ... but not if ONE provider has a monopoly on the jobs.

we want a monopoly on pilot labor.... ie a Cartel of Pilot labor ... a union.

But whereas I am a consumer of pilot jobs... I want competition.

Like the ELOAN.com commercial.

When employers compete for your services... you win.

 

[GVFlyer]

The only kicker in this whole proposition is that no one is quite sure yet that the whole fractional aircraft concept is a sustainable business model. The entire fractional industry has yet to climb out of the red ink. While some economic mavens have forecast a profit, profitability for the fractional providers has been an elusive target. Not one fractional has shown a profit, ever.

I sincerely hope the fractionals achieve profitability. They're good for pilots. They provide a viable alternative to the regionals and they create jobs by getting people into airplanes who otherwise couldn't afford them. Only time will tell.


GV

 

[BombJet45]

Profit at flex

Correction, Flexjet made a profit. However, they don't "show" it because it is intertwined with Bombardier.

 

[Just Peachy]

Profit

Why would any fractional show a profit??? The owners who pay to have this service would demand money back. Pretty dumb to advertise, "Hey we're makin' money." Better to pay a bonus to the execs and buy more capital equipment and expand.......

 

[Ultra Grump]

We want competition for pilot jobs. Which will occur if demand outstrips supply of fractional jets ... but not if ONE provider has a monopoly on the jobs.

we want a monopoly on pilot labor.... ie a Cartel of Pilot labor ... a union.

But whereas I am a consumer of pilot jobs... I want competition.

Like the ELOAN.com commercial.

When employers compete for your services... you win.

The problem with that scenario is that if there is more competition in the marketplace, the players must keep their prices lower than the next guy in order to compete. How do aviation managements keep prices lower? Step 1: lower labor costs. See the deregulated airline industry for numerous examples.

If your scenario were true and would result in higher demand for pilots, and by extension higher wages, then those higher wages would result in more people wanting to enter the profession. Supply of pilots would increase, and wages decrease. Ugly cycle.

pers-headwall had it right. If NetJets were the only fractional provider, the only competition would be the cost of private ownership and charter. Prices could increase more than they otherwise would, and 1108 could justifiably demand more for pilots' salaries. (Of course, the nature of a capitalist society would result in creation of new fractionals to provide the service at a lower cost. And the cycle continues...)

God I hated my Econ classes...

 

[Publishers]

There is a reason that the standards are not set across the industry and it is the thing that makes hash of the airlines, ALPA, and seniority. In a deregulated environment, someone will always come into compete that refused to do so by rules established by others. Airline unions worked great when they operated in a fixed group of regulated carriers.

In the fractionals, there are even more issues because the product is not transportation. If the costs of crew services becomes more than the owners think is reasonable, they will bolt. The two things that will kill nationwide fractionals are dead head/positioning flights, and airline type crew rules.

 

[gunfyter]

What keeps the supply of Doctors down and their prices high?

The medical cartel (Union) known as the AMA.

There are many Hospitals competing with each other FOR DOCTORS.

If there were only one or a few hospitals... they could dictate what doctors could charge.

 

[gunfyter]

The two things that will kill nationwide fractionals are dead head/positioning flights, and airline type crew rules.

You forgot Mismanagement.

The very thing that did in some of the Majors.

Airline crew rules:

We are flying more hours now than we did before 91K. They complained it would kill them but they figured it out by scheduling more efficiently.

 

[Ultra Grump]

What keeps the supply of Doctors down and their prices high?

Medical school, internship, and residency. The blood, guts, and disease don't help, either.

 

[gunfyter]

Medical school, internship, and residency. The blood, guts, and disease don't help, either.

There are a lot of people who have high GPAs and do not get into medical school.

If we had a union like the AMA we could raise the standards so fewer people qualified.

Such as Engineering degree required for the ATP.

The point is... if there is ONLY one employer competing for Pilots... we have to take what is offered. But when several employers compete for pilots ... they have to sweeten their offer. With the IBT CBA raising the bar ... other fractionals have already increased salaries.

 

[netjetwife]

The problem with that scenario is that if there is more competition in the marketplace, the players must keep their prices lower than the next guy in order to compete. How do aviation managements keep prices lower? Step 1: lower labor costs. See the deregulated airline industry for numerous examples.....God I hated my Econ classes...

Yes, it shows that you didn't enjoy that class. Your note taking leaves lots to be desired. The well-heeled pax of fracs hardly go out looking for the cheapest deal. Those with money can afford to be picky about things like service, convenience and other issues outside of the bottom line. Thus my opinion that healthy ( as in no tactics of exploiting the labor force) competition will keep pilots focused on delivering the high level of service demanded by the consumers of the product. Satisfied customers generate new business through personal recommendations.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Gee, thanks for the lesson, Prof! I said I hated it, not that I did poorly in it... I guess I must have missed the day they discussed utopian society though:

...healthy ( as in no tactics of exploiting the labor force) competition...

When we start living in Neverland, that might happen. Last I checked, we weren't there. All other factors being equal, the lowest price wins. That is the nature of competition. Strive to provide a better product at a better price. And what exactly is the point of competition? Oh yeah, to WIN, and hope to be the last standing, as a monopoly in a competition-free environment.

I understand Thurston and Lovey aren’t shopping in the bargain basement, but they also didn’t get rich by being stupid with their money.

One thing you said rings true - though you probably didn't intend it exactly this way, since it's the flip-side of your point:

...competition will keep pilots focused on delivering the high level of service demanded by the consumers of the product.

Lack of competition, while it may result in higher salaries (a la regulation-era airlines), most likely will result in complacency and a degredation of service. However, if you're the only game in town that won't really matter, will it (until another upstart comes along - deja vu)?

By the way, what exactly in what you quoted of me was incorrect? I need to go back and correct my notes...

 

[Sparse]

Jets in the sky right now!

As of 1000 eastern here are the stats:

Citation shares 13
Flex Jet 18
Options 31
Netjets 68

Hammer, are you afraid for your job? Are you here to drum up some business?

Interesting statistics but what do they prove? Compare NJ to CS. Based on aircraft, NJ is roughly 5 times the size of CS.

According to your stats CS has 13 flying and NJ has 68. Roughly 5 times as many.
CS 74 aircraft. It think NJ has between 350 and 375.
CS has about 325 pilots. By a factor of 5 that should equate to 1625 NJ pilots. But NJ has 2400 pilots. The prices are roughly the same but NJ's ratio of pilots to aircraft is about 50% higher. The ration of owners to pilots is a better gage but I don't have that info.

What's my point? The job is only worth so much. Can NJ afford the contract they have with the pilots without ignificantly raising their rates? I am just offering this as food for thought. UAL set the bar for pay and Delta used that as a base barganing position. Neither could afford it and we all know the rest of the story. Not that pilot pay was the cause of their demose, it certainly played a role. Only time will tell what the net result will be in the Fraq industry.