nja owner tell me this ?

[pers-headwall]

Competition? why would I want competition in my industry. What were you "pro-competition" nabobs doing in Econ. 101. We don't want competition. We want demand to outstrip our supply of fractional jets, so we can charge exorbitant rates and all get rich. Get some remedial training on economics!

 

[netjetwife]

While we're getting back to basics, I'd like to point out that there are more "have-nots" than "haves". That being those who have enough money to be your pax. So while your picture looks rosy, I don't think it's too realistic. Sorry, PH.

With selection comes competition--an economic fact. I hope that frac pilots can view it with a friendly attitude and realize that a healthy amount can be an antidote to complacency, which leads to a reduction in service and does no one any good.

Frac pilots and their families have much in common. Please bring back the spirit of kinsmanship that Hogprint posted about. Your combined efforts could change the industry and make it the career you all deserve to have.

A note to my critics: check the dictionary. The word "deserve" doesn't have the negative connotation--asking for a handout-- that has been erroneously assigned to it. It actually means payment is due for something that has already been earned. The example given applies to frac pilot wages perfectly. To be worthy of; merit. See synonyms at earn. "You deserve a promotion after all the hard work you have done" NJW

 

[gunfyter]

Competition? why would I want competition in my industry. What were you "pro-competition" nabobs doing in Econ. 101. We don't want competition. We want demand to outstrip our supply of fractional jets, so we can charge exorbitant rates and all get rich. Get some remedial training on economics!

We want competition for pilot jobs. Which will occur if demand outstrips supply of fractional jets ... but not if ONE provider has a monopoly on the jobs.

we want a monopoly on pilot labor.... ie a Cartel of Pilot labor ... a union.

But whereas I am a consumer of pilot jobs... I want competition.

Like the ELOAN.com commercial.

When employers compete for your services... you win.

 

[GVFlyer]

The only kicker in this whole proposition is that no one is quite sure yet that the whole fractional aircraft concept is a sustainable business model. The entire fractional industry has yet to climb out of the red ink. While some economic mavens have forecast a profit, profitability for the fractional providers has been an elusive target. Not one fractional has shown a profit, ever.

I sincerely hope the fractionals achieve profitability. They're good for pilots. They provide a viable alternative to the regionals and they create jobs by getting people into airplanes who otherwise couldn't afford them. Only time will tell.


GV

 

[BombJet45]

Profit at flex

Correction, Flexjet made a profit. However, they don't "show" it because it is intertwined with Bombardier.

 

[Just Peachy]

Profit

Why would any fractional show a profit??? The owners who pay to have this service would demand money back. Pretty dumb to advertise, "Hey we're makin' money." Better to pay a bonus to the execs and buy more capital equipment and expand.......

 

[Ultra Grump]

We want competition for pilot jobs. Which will occur if demand outstrips supply of fractional jets ... but not if ONE provider has a monopoly on the jobs.

we want a monopoly on pilot labor.... ie a Cartel of Pilot labor ... a union.

But whereas I am a consumer of pilot jobs... I want competition.

Like the ELOAN.com commercial.

When employers compete for your services... you win.

The problem with that scenario is that if there is more competition in the marketplace, the players must keep their prices lower than the next guy in order to compete. How do aviation managements keep prices lower? Step 1: lower labor costs. See the deregulated airline industry for numerous examples.

If your scenario were true and would result in higher demand for pilots, and by extension higher wages, then those higher wages would result in more people wanting to enter the profession. Supply of pilots would increase, and wages decrease. Ugly cycle.

pers-headwall had it right. If NetJets were the only fractional provider, the only competition would be the cost of private ownership and charter. Prices could increase more than they otherwise would, and 1108 could justifiably demand more for pilots' salaries. (Of course, the nature of a capitalist society would result in creation of new fractionals to provide the service at a lower cost. And the cycle continues...)

God I hated my Econ classes...

 

[Publishers]

There is a reason that the standards are not set across the industry and it is the thing that makes hash of the airlines, ALPA, and seniority. In a deregulated environment, someone will always come into compete that refused to do so by rules established by others. Airline unions worked great when they operated in a fixed group of regulated carriers.

In the fractionals, there are even more issues because the product is not transportation. If the costs of crew services becomes more than the owners think is reasonable, they will bolt. The two things that will kill nationwide fractionals are dead head/positioning flights, and airline type crew rules.

 

[gunfyter]

What keeps the supply of Doctors down and their prices high?

The medical cartel (Union) known as the AMA.

There are many Hospitals competing with each other FOR DOCTORS.

If there were only one or a few hospitals... they could dictate what doctors could charge.

 

[gunfyter]

The two things that will kill nationwide fractionals are dead head/positioning flights, and airline type crew rules.

You forgot Mismanagement.

The very thing that did in some of the Majors.

Airline crew rules:

We are flying more hours now than we did before 91K. They complained it would kill them but they figured it out by scheduling more efficiently.

 

[Ultra Grump]

What keeps the supply of Doctors down and their prices high?

Medical school, internship, and residency. The blood, guts, and disease don't help, either.

 

[gunfyter]

Medical school, internship, and residency. The blood, guts, and disease don't help, either.

There are a lot of people who have high GPAs and do not get into medical school.

If we had a union like the AMA we could raise the standards so fewer people qualified.

Such as Engineering degree required for the ATP.

The point is... if there is ONLY one employer competing for Pilots... we have to take what is offered. But when several employers compete for pilots ... they have to sweeten their offer. With the IBT CBA raising the bar ... other fractionals have already increased salaries.

 

[netjetwife]

The problem with that scenario is that if there is more competition in the marketplace, the players must keep their prices lower than the next guy in order to compete. How do aviation managements keep prices lower? Step 1: lower labor costs. See the deregulated airline industry for numerous examples.....God I hated my Econ classes...

Yes, it shows that you didn't enjoy that class. Your note taking leaves lots to be desired. The well-heeled pax of fracs hardly go out looking for the cheapest deal. Those with money can afford to be picky about things like service, convenience and other issues outside of the bottom line. Thus my opinion that healthy ( as in no tactics of exploiting the labor force) competition will keep pilots focused on delivering the high level of service demanded by the consumers of the product. Satisfied customers generate new business through personal recommendations.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Gee, thanks for the lesson, Prof! I said I hated it, not that I did poorly in it... I guess I must have missed the day they discussed utopian society though:

...healthy ( as in no tactics of exploiting the labor force) competition...

When we start living in Neverland, that might happen. Last I checked, we weren't there. All other factors being equal, the lowest price wins. That is the nature of competition. Strive to provide a better product at a better price. And what exactly is the point of competition? Oh yeah, to WIN, and hope to be the last standing, as a monopoly in a competition-free environment.

I understand Thurston and Lovey aren’t shopping in the bargain basement, but they also didn’t get rich by being stupid with their money.

One thing you said rings true - though you probably didn't intend it exactly this way, since it's the flip-side of your point:

...competition will keep pilots focused on delivering the high level of service demanded by the consumers of the product.

Lack of competition, while it may result in higher salaries (a la regulation-era airlines), most likely will result in complacency and a degredation of service. However, if you're the only game in town that won't really matter, will it (until another upstart comes along - deja vu)?

By the way, what exactly in what you quoted of me was incorrect? I need to go back and correct my notes...

 

[Sparse]

Jets in the sky right now!

As of 1000 eastern here are the stats:

Citation shares 13
Flex Jet 18
Options 31
Netjets 68

Hammer, are you afraid for your job? Are you here to drum up some business?

Interesting statistics but what do they prove? Compare NJ to CS. Based on aircraft, NJ is roughly 5 times the size of CS.

According to your stats CS has 13 flying and NJ has 68. Roughly 5 times as many.
CS 74 aircraft. It think NJ has between 350 and 375.
CS has about 325 pilots. By a factor of 5 that should equate to 1625 NJ pilots. But NJ has 2400 pilots. The prices are roughly the same but NJ's ratio of pilots to aircraft is about 50% higher. The ration of owners to pilots is a better gage but I don't have that info.

What's my point? The job is only worth so much. Can NJ afford the contract they have with the pilots without ignificantly raising their rates? I am just offering this as food for thought. UAL set the bar for pay and Delta used that as a base barganing position. Neither could afford it and we all know the rest of the story. Not that pilot pay was the cause of their demose, it certainly played a role. Only time will tell what the net result will be in the Fraq industry.

 

[netjetwife]

Gee, thanks for the lesson, Prof! I said I hated it, not that I did poorly in it... I guess I must have missed the day they discussed utopian society though: When we start living in Neverland, that might happen. Last I checked, we weren't there. All other factors being equal, the lowest price wins. That is the nature of competition. Strive to provide a better product at a better price. And what exactly is the point of competition? Oh yeah, to WIN, and hope to be the last standing, as a monopoly in a competition-free environment.

I understand Thurston and Lovey aren’t shopping in the bargain basement, but they also didn’t get rich by being stupid with their money.

One thing you said rings true - though you probably didn't intend it exactly this way, since it's the flip-side of your point: Lack of competition, while it may result in higher salaries (a la regulation-era airlines), most likely will result in complacency and a degredation of service. However, if you're the only game in town that won't really matter, will it (until another upstart comes along - deja vu)?

By the way, what exactly in what you quoted of me was incorrect? I need to go back and correct my notes...

The incorrect part, which I had quoted for you, was your focus on product price as the only area (by implication since you left out everything else) of competition. Utopian society? That has no bearing on my post. I didn't say those practices aren't out there. All one has to do is look at frac salaries to see that companies are exploiting the labor force. You took my words out of context, UG. I was pointing out the type of competition that the pilots can look upon favorably. I meant exactly what I said about competition keeping the pilots on their toes in delivering quality service. All other factors being equal? With all the variables there are? To quote you, "Last I checked we weren't there".

 

[gunfyter]

Interesting statistics but what do they prove? Compare NJ to CS. Based on aircraft, NJ is roughly 5 times the size of CS.

According to your stats CS has 13 flying and NJ has 68. Roughly 5 times as many.
CS 74 aircraft. It think NJ has between 350 and 375.
CS has about 325 pilots. By a factor of 5 that should equate to 1625 NJ pilots. But NJ has 2400 pilots. The prices are roughly the same but NJ's ratio of pilots to aircraft is about 50% higher. The ration of owners to pilots is a better gage but I don't have that info.

What's my point? The job is only worth so much. Can NJ afford the contract they have with the pilots without ignificantly raising their rates? I am just offering this as food for thought. UAL set the bar for pay and Delta used that as a base barganing position. Neither could afford it and we all know the rest of the story. Not that pilot pay was the cause of their demose, it certainly played a role. Only time will tell what the net result will be in the Fraq industry.

I believe NJ has over 600 aircraft and just over 3000 pilots.

I have already burned over $250,000 in jet fuel SO FAR this yr. My salary so far is a fraction of just the fuel costs. And the difference between my salary and the lowest paid Fractional jet captain in the industry is far smaller fraction. And the fuel cost is a small fraction of the overall costs to the owners.

 

[Ultra Grump]

NJW -

I never said price was the only area of competition. Want me to write a textbook and spell out every one? But you said (by implication as well) essentially that there is no price pressure in the fractional competition equation. I say you are wrong.

...healthy ( as in no tactics of exploiting the labor force) competition...

Where exactly does this condition exist? Utopia, if anywhere. That's the bearing on your post.

I know you meant exactly what you said. I said I thought what you had posted was true, but for a reason other than your original intent. Hence my take on the same idea. Same point, from a different angle. You might want to read more closely before commenting.

Regarding "all other factors being equal," you might want to go back to your econ classes. Pretty much the only way to gauge the effect of just one given factor is to hold all other factors equal.

This entire discussion really is moot, since there are way too many factors involved to truly measure the effect of just one, and we really aren't talking about just one. Regardless, more competition in our marketplace will not result in higher pilot salaries. You can count on that.

 

[netjetwife]

Ohhh UG, you are missing the whole point of the conversation, which was never a purely economic discussion to begin with. It was originally a frac rivalry issue started by Hammer 2 saying that Flex was better than NJA. After a few pages of it I tried to lend a balanced perspective to the thread with my post from page 3--copied here for your convenience.

I,personally, am pleased to hear when the other frac companies are getting along fine. That must surely be an indicator of a strong market for your services and that bodes well for all of us. Productive pilots are justified in their demands for professional wages. Industry standards benefit all pilots. Healthy, respectful competition keeps you all on your toes, but when it comes to fighting for fairness in the fractional industry I hope y'all remember that you're all on the same side.

The business side of the job isn't something that the pilots have direct control over. Service, however, is and that's where I think they should focus their urge to compete with one another. My point was that friendly competition....in this context meaning rivalry....can be a good thing, but the ugly kind just divides pilots whose time would be better spent working together to improve the lot of all pilots in the industry. Frac pilots can't control the economy but they certainly are responsible for their attitudes and treatment of their peers in the industry. Those who are underpaid can join forces and win a fair/good contract so that their low wages (my reference to exploitation) aren't used to hold down salaries at other companies. I'd like to see frac pilots pull each other up--not down.

 

[Ultra Grump]

No NJW, you are missing the point. I did not enter this thread responding to you. I responded to a post Gunfyter made about more fractional competitors = competition for pilots = higher pilot salaries. Here it is again, since you seem to have forgotten:

We want competition for pilot jobs. Which will occur if demand outstrips supply of fractional jets ... but not if ONE provider has a monopoly on the jobs.

we want a monopoly on pilot labor.... ie a Cartel of Pilot labor ... a union.

But whereas I am a consumer of pilot jobs... I want competition.

Like the ELOAN.com commercial.

When employers compete for your services... you win.

I disagree with that opinion. It had nothing to do with you, or your points, until you decided to jump in and try to take that tangent (admittedly) off on another tangent. Your post above has nothing to do with my original point.

Apparently you think I'm an idiot. I know what the thread was about. I was not commenting on the thread as a whole. I was specifically reacting to one particular
point made by one particular individual (not you). Every comment made on this board that you disagree with somehow becomes an attack on unionism and the injustice we fractional pilots are suffering. Please - give it a rest.

I will respond to your last point, though. The goal in business is to win. In order to win, others have to lose. I do not work for Flight Options. I do not work for FlexJet, nor CitationShares. I work for NetJets, and NetJets is the only fractional company I wish to see succeed. The more success NetJets has, the better off we, NetJets employees, will be. If that means the failure of Flight Options, or any other fractional, so be it. If other fractionals fail, that makes us stronger. Their owners will go somewhere for their shiny jets, and it's better for us if they come here. Growth, upgrade, and job security would be the result. I am going to do my job to the best of my ability, to do my part to see that that ultimately is the end result. To wish otherwise is foolish.