NJ Recalls

[X-rated]

Uh huh, which is why we need a decent raise just to keep the payscale equivalent to what it was when the 2007 contract passed in terms of buying power today. Everyone knew at the time there would be no inflation adjustment unless the contract was extended, and everyone, save G4, understands that we need a raise to keep the same buying power as we had when the contract was first passed.

Imacdog,

I honestly don't want to argue with you, but you're still not getting what I'm saying because you still think you should use 2007 buying power as your benchmark. Assume a pilot got a raise to 140K per year in 2007. Seven years later, he would have received 980,000 actual dollars. However, The NPV of 140K per year for 7 years at 3 percent inflation is $794,164 or 113,452 per year in 2007 dollars. At 2 percent, which is closer to where we've really been in the past 7 years, it would be 121,696 per year in 2007 dollars. It's a false premise to use 140K because that's not what you negotiated. You negotiated 140K per year for 7 years. At two percent assumed inflation, the assumed pilot could have received a raise to 121,696 per year plus 2 percent cola and it would have been exactly equal to 140K per year for 7 years. It's just math.

note: To be fair, I compounded monthly because I'm too lazy to build a spreadsheet, but this is pretty close and illustrates my point. Compounding every 12 months to represent annual instead of monthly COLA increases would give you a slightly higher 2007 equivalent salary.

Fight for as much as you think you can get. I'm just pointing out the academic inaccuracy of using the 2007 buying power as your starting point. That's not what was negotiated or agreed to by the bean counters. They understand and think in terms of NPV. Most pilots probably don't.

 

[G4dude]

Are you?

He is an authority on what he thinks is right, as am I, and as are you. What are y'all, six years old?

 

[G4dude]

Swa is wildly profitable and has been for 40 years in a row.

SWA has an increasingly senior complement of captains, driving cost per mile higher, especially since SW was conceived as a low cost carrier, I believe. I see storm clouds on the horizon for them,like what Delta and United, et al, went through. Hopefully I am wrong. Usually am.

 

[imacdog]

Imacdog,

I honestly don't want to argue with you, but you're still not getting what I'm saying because you still think you should use 2007 buying power as your benchmark. Assume a pilot got a raise to 140K per year in 2007. Seven years later, he would have received 980,000 actual dollars. However, The NPV of 140K per year for 7 years at 3 percent inflation is $794,164 or 113,452 per year in 2007 dollars. At 2 percent, which is closer to where we've really been in the past 7 years, it would be 121,696 per year in 2007 dollars. It's a false premise to use 140K because that's not what you negotiated. You negotiated 140K per year for 7 years. At two percent assumed inflation, the assumed pilot could have received a raise to 121,696 per year plus 2 percent cola and it would have been exactly equal to 140K per year for 7 years. It's just math.

note: To be fair, I compounded monthly because I'm too lazy to build a spreadsheet, but this is pretty close and illustrates my point. Compounding every 12 months to represent annual instead of monthly COLA increases would give you a slightly higher 2007 equivalent salary.

Fight for as much as you think you can get. I'm just pointing out the academic inaccuracy of using the 2007 buying power as your starting point. That's not what was negotiated or agreed to by the bean counters. They understand and think in terms of NPV. Most pilots probably don't.

That's nice. You're right though in that it isn't appropriate to start with 2007 buying power, as that would be too low.

 

[imacdog]

Are you?

As I get to vote on our contract and neither you nor Xrated gets to, then yes I am.

 

[gunfyter]

The way to do it is to compare the compensation in Constant 2007 dollars of a pilot in say years 8-15... to a Pilot just hitting year 8 today. The compensation in a new agreement over those years must be adjusted to the same value in constant 2007 dollars.

As of today 8 years of inflation applied to the 2007 pay scales would bring us back to equal with those numbers.

Its about 17.5 % across the board just to get even. But still puts us way short of SWA+1%

I don't think certain people's secretaries should be paying their pilot's on discount airlines MORE than certain billionaire's pay their pilots on private jets... on top of the indignity of the secretary paying higher taxes than the billionaire

 

[T-1GUY]

Is the swa + 1% based on Southwest's current contract numbers? They are negotiating a new raise at this moment.

 

[acaTerry]

With ALL due respect, that is exactly what UAL and Delta pilots said several years ago when they were paid so much both companies almost went kaput.
It is rationalizing exorbitantly high pay.

Not a good comparison. Our company is making money hand over fist...they were not. And the money troubles they were having were NOT related to pilot compensation, but by poor management. They started making more money, everyone got big raises, and guess what...both are doing even better after the raises. Ask any DAL pilot about their most recent bonus check (which BTW is not given on terms of never being sick, never having a broken airplane, bad WX, etc). It can be done, and it has been done, and it has been successful.

 

[acaTerry]

Dbl posted....

 

[acaTerry]

Swa is wildly profitable and has been for 40 years in a row.

...and the pilots are getting the rewards of their effort...why are you opposed to us doing the same?

 

[fischman]

Great question. I think any raise more than 10 percent would be too much for captains like me. Here is what I think pay ought to be: Captains are paid adequately now, but we obviously need COLAs. FOs need 10 percent more with COLAs.

I agree. I think 10% WOULD be too much for a Captain like you.

I, on the other hand, am worth no less than $250,000 a year. Just because you don't know what you're worth, don't mess it up for the rest of us.

 

[G4dude]

I agree. I think 10% WOULD be too much for a Captain like you.

I, on the other hand, am worth no less than $250,000 a year. Just because you don't know what you're worth, don't mess it up for the rest of us.

Um, you are familiar with the concept of discussion without insults? Also, I don't know what I am worth because I don't agree with you? You seem to be a little narcissisic, maybe.

 

[fischman]

I'm not sure how I insulted you? I agreed with you!

If anything, you insulted me with saying a 10% raise would be too much.

In not narcissistic. I'm awesome. Haven't you heard?

 

[pilotyip]

Um, you are familiar with the concept of discussion without insults? Also, I don't know what I am worth because I don't agree with you? You seem to be a little narcissisic, maybe.

Now Stop That!! This is FI, insults are the mark of a true professional in this business. Just look at all the professionals posting on this site.

 

[Some guy]

I would agree that 98% of you are worth every dollar and then some. I keep seeing the SWA argument as a comparison. Why not go work for them if they're making tens of thousands more? Their job is easier in many aspects and duty times are probably more stable.

SG

 

[SDCFI]

I would agree that 98% of you are worth every dollar and then some. I keep seeing the SWA argument as a comparison. Why not go work for them if they're making tens of thousands more? Their job is easier in many aspects and duty times are probably more stable.

SG

Man, I can just up and go work for SWA? You should've told me this sooner! All these years I've wasted filling out and updating their application.

In the meantime why don't we make our current jobs better instead of settling for less because someone out there has it worse off than us.

 

[acaTerry]

I would agree that 98% of you are worth every dollar and then some. I keep seeing the SWA argument as a comparison. Why not go work for them if they're making tens of thousands more? Their job is easier in many aspects and duty times are probably more stable.

SG

If everybody just quit every time things got tough, eventually there would be NOWHERE good to go. Sometimes you just have to fight.

 

[realityman]

If everybody just quit every time things got tough, eventually there would be NOWHERE good to go. Sometimes you just have to fight.

Bingo!

I wonder what the majors would be like if the pilots of the past had just "quit to find greener pastures"? How many greener pastures would there be?

 

[Turbo TA]

Great question. I think any raise more than 10 percent would be too much for captains like me. Here is what I think pay ought to be: Captains are paid adequately now, but we obviously need COLAs. FOs need 10 percent more with COLAs.

Really?

 

[Some guy]

Man, I can just up and go work for SWA? You should've told me this sooner! All these years I've wasted filling out and updating their application.

In the meantime why don't we make our current jobs better instead of settling for less because someone out there has it worse off than us.

The point was you would if you could. People make comparisons to something that likely isn't attainable in many cases. One of the bigger issues I'm seeing discussed here is salary. Demand salary based on what you do and why, not based on what someone else makes in a different environment. Anyone who says those SWA guy and gals put in the same workload as a fractional pilot has lost their mind. You deserve more because you're earning more and work harder. i truly hope your group can make things better.

SG