NJ Recalls

[G4dude]

G4 what is a big raise to you? Do you support cost of living raises or are you ok with inflation eating your buying power away? The company seems to think cola protection is important enough to include it in their contracts with our customers.

Great question. I think any raise more than 10 percent would be too much for captains like me. Here is what I think pay ought to be: Captains are paid adequately now, but we obviously need COLAs. FOs need 10 percent more with COLAs.

 

[imacdog]

10% doesn't even cover inflation from late 2007.

 

[G4dude]

10% doesn't even cover inflation from late 2007.[/QUOTE

Haven't we been getting raises every year, unless we have been here over 14-17 years? (approximately, I don't have the contract payscales memorized) I don't understand what you mean.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Heavy sigh....

I luv ya amigo but you're just...wrong.

The owners are willing to pay more. Uncle Warren can afford to pay more. And we're WORTH more. A LOT more.

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[T-1GUY]

G4, you sell yourself way too short. FO.s at Southwest are making 150-200k a year and they are asking for increases. That's working fifteen days a month or less. Netjet FO's cap out at 80k working the same amount with no upgrade in sight. You want to give them a ten percent increase and cola? Are you freaking kidding me? What a freaking bottom feeding opinion.

 

[imacdog]

10% doesn't even cover inflation from late 2007.[/QUOTE

Haven't we been getting raises every year, unless we have been here over 14-17 years? (approximately, I don't have the contract payscales memorized) I don't understand what you mean.

Annual salary bumps are not for the purpose of adjusting for inflation. In other words, a 10-year captain today has less spending power than a 10-year faptain did in 2008.

 

[OPECJet]

Step one won't happen for a long time. WB does not see it the same way as the Pilot group does. He is making money and could not care less about the Labor situation at this point. Doubt he will give in to labor demands as it would set a precedence.

I assume the pay cut you speak to is a loss of buying power per year. What data are you using to get 4%? The government CPI for 2014 it takes $1.15 to buy what $1.00 did in 2007. That is less than 4% per year.

Doesn't individual NJA pay increase at 3.5% per year?

Yep. Anyone else think Warren is pretty ignorant of anything except money? I seriously think it's the only thing he has any knowledge of. He sure doesn't understand people.

 

[G4dude]

Annual salary bumps are not for the purpose of adjusting for inflation. In other words, a 10-year captain today has less spending power than a 10-year faptain did in 2008.

Really? I don't understand. The captain's job is the same level of responsibility and skill as it was in 2007, we get an increase every year, how is that a loss of buying power?

 

[G4dude]

Heavy sigh....

I luv ya amigo but you're just...wrong.

The owners are willing to pay more. Uncle Warren can afford to pay more. And we're WORTH more. A LOT more.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving yourself! I am just worried about what effect a big raise would have on the shareholders, who expect a good return on their investment, no matter what we think we deserve. And if the stockholders dump us, I will be ok, but many of my colleagues won't.

 

[gutshotdraw]

BH is making north of 20% Return on Invested Capital. The true measure of an investment's success.

Return on Revenue is a BS metric. Especially in the aviation industry which is notorious for poor ROR. The company uses it to distract the economically uneducated employees among us.

BH also earns revenue via Netjets from FSI, insuring the aircraft, and the corporate intelligence gathering that is undoubtedly derived from flight activity.

It's my belief that we could have a 40% raise tomorrow, end the petty BS, and actually IMPROVE the bottom line. The way this management team is treating all their employee groups is simply BAD BUSINESS and until the "leadership" changes, this company IS doomed to ultimately fail. That's Warren's fault, not ours.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Really? I don't understand. The captain's job is the same level of responsibility and skill as it was in 2007, we get an increase every year, how is that a loss of buying power?

I've been pay FROZEN for four years. Not a nickel more. More pilots reach their cap every year. Yes, it is WAY past due for an across the board raise.

 

[imacdog]

Really? I don't understand. The captain's job is the same level of responsibility and skill as it was in 2007, we get an increase every year, how is that a loss of buying power?

How can you not understand that a pilot with 10 years with the company made effectively more money than a pilot with 10 years with the company did this year?

 

[X-rated]

All of you are conveniently forgetting the length of the term was considered by both sides in 2007, and the size of the raise you received reflected it. There is no doubt you did better from a purchasing power perspective in the early years of the contract, but the initial raise would not have been as large had there also been annual cola escalations. To now say you NEED a certain percent raise to get back to where you were doesn't take into account that you earned more (in purchasing power) than you should have in the early years of the multi year deal and less in the later years. That's just how your pilot group structured it. Weird how no one was complaining in 2007.

Anyone who has topped out and is not getting further raises got screwed by those with less seniority who don't make as much. They got a bigger piece of the pie, but it could be argued they needed it more. In any case, It's what your pilot group agreed to.

I hope you all get a huge raise, but this particular argument is not fully thought out.

Happy Turkey Day!

 

[imacdog]

Oh so you're the authority on what we "should" make?

 

[jonjuan]

Oh so you're the authority on what we "should" make?

Are you?

 

[X-rated]

Oh so you're the authority on what we "should" make?

Point SO missed... Where did I say anything about how much you should make? You guys are the ones who agreed to the amount of your raise, its terms and the structure. There is a time value to money which was absolutely considered by management and likely considered by the more astute among your membership. I just pointed out no one has lost money due to inflation. Your raise just wasn't the windfall you thought it was if you didn't consider net present value.

 

[gunfyter]

All of you are conveniently forgetting the length of the term was considered by both sides in 2007, and the size of the raise you received reflected it. !

This is not forgotten ... It must be taken into account again. As does the $100K more my buddies at SWA make more than I do

 

[imacdog]

Point SO missed... Where did I say anything about how much you should make? You guys are the ones who agreed to the amount of your raise, its terms and the structure. There is a time value to money which was absolutely considered by management and likely considered by the more astute among your membership. I just pointed out no one has lost money due to inflation. Your raise just wasn't the windfall you thought it was if you didn't consider net present value.

Uh huh, which is why we need a decent raise just to keep the payscale equivalent to what it was when the 2007 contract passed in terms of buying power today. Everyone knew at the time there would be no inflation adjustment unless the contract was extended, and everyone, save G4, understands that we need a raise to keep the same buying power as we had when the contract was first passed.

 

[jonjuan]

This is not forgotten ... It must be taken into account again. As does the $100K more my buddies at SWA make more than I do

Swa is wildly profitable and has been for 40 years in a row.

 

[realityman]

Swa is wildly profitable and has been for 40 years in a row.

And with the exception of '08 and '09, so have we.

This company has been making lots and lots of money for many years now. It's a shame some buy into the company propaganda that's been put out over the years of how they were losing money, or were barely making a profit. Whatever.

Those of us who have been here since the 90's have watched this game play out. I'll never forget during our fight for the '05 contract how the union asked for an audit of the "books", since they were crying so poor and couldn't pay us any more. The company generously agreed, sort of. The union was allowed the most general of overviews. A couple pages that basically showed Netjets, Inc. was losing money. The thing is, Netjets, Inc. included all the Netjets subsidiaries: NJA, NJI, EJM, NJME, and most importantly, NJE. I say NJE because this one was the kicker. You see, it was the worst kept secret around the company that Netjets was using large profits from NJA to start and run NJE, which always seemed to be losing money. NJA floated NJE for years. In fact, they've done it up until recently, when NJE finally turned a small profit.

The union knew this too, so they asked for a forensic audit of the books. Man, you should have seen the company run from that!

And there were other tricks too the company would use to siphon away profits from NJA so they could show a loss. I'll never forget signing the bill at our own facility in HPN (being run by EJM, another Netjets subsidiary) where we charged ourselves $90 for a quart of oil. Or $200 for a lav service. Or ridiculously high ramp fees. Oh, and paying retail, or more, for training at FSI (another BH company). This was confirmed by more than a few sources.

NJA had been making PLENTY of money. And the proof came after we signed our CBA in '05. The very same CBA that the company, and many folks outside, including here, said would bankrupt the company. Because after we signed it NJA went on to make, and report, record profits in a very short timeframe. Wow, the turnaround was nothing short of miraculous, if you believed their lies about how much they had been losing. We're talking about less than a year from "OMG! We're losing a ton of money and paying you anymore is going to be the final nail in the company coffin!" to we're making so much money we can light our cigars with $100 bills! Amazing how much money we "made" when there was no more contract negotiations.

Do a little homework about NJA before making comments about profitability. This place is a cash cow. They can afford, easily, to pay us a great deal more.