NJ Recalls

[Praetorian]

In a couple more years, when the contract is hopefully signed, a 20% raise will be right back where it was in 2007 thanks to inflation. Anything less than a 20% raise is already a pay cut. That's something people need to consider when evaluating contract proposals.

Don't you guys have COL increases that continue to kick in annually, even though the 07 agreement is amendable? I'm guessing 3.5% per year.

 

[CA1900]

No. The payscale increments per year of service, but that's it. It also tops out at the 10th year of service for FOs, meaning they'll all be pay-frozen within two years. (Newest FO still working was hired in 2006.)

 

[johnsonrod]

Slightly off topic - as the Phenom 300s come onboard, from which fleet(s) will they be drawing their pilots? Are they replacing the 400As and Encores one-for-one and gaining their pilots in the process?

 

[OPECJet]

Speaking of recalls: Current NJA pilots, please reference 1.5(C)(4) Subcontracting (Sell offs) During Periods of Furloughs/ Downgrades in the CBA and decide how many sell off days the company is allowed in your opinion. The number "11" popped into your head from reading the question, but please go look at the language as it is written.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Speaking of recalls: Current NJA pilots, please reference 1.5(C)(4) Subcontracting (Sell offs) During Periods of Furloughs/ Downgrades in the CBA and decide how many sell off days the company is allowed in your opinion. The number "11" popped into your head from reading the question, but please go look at the language as it is written.

It's plain language to me.

Why now tell us your opinion of what it says?

 

[OPECJet]

It's plain language to me.

Why now tell us your opinion of what it says?

Appears to me recalls must occur if the company sells off any flights while pilots are furloughed or downgraded. Dead issue at this point however.

 

[dudemize]

From what I hear of the current lifestyle on the road at NJA, there is no amount of money that would get me to return. Not worth it.

I'm much more interested in QOL issues than pure compensation at this point.

 

[DC-4]

While I agree to a point about the lifestyle point. However what if your at a crappy job working your ass off, maybe NJA is still better for some. I think the issue that is being brought up is that we have been told over and over again that after 11 days of selloffs then that triggers recalls. The problem is that in that section of the CBA it says that the company is alowed zero 0 percent selloffs during a period of fuloughes and downgrades provided the company can selloff flights a maximum of 11 days per quarter. The union and company say this means after 11 days then recalls happen, and the company can selloff as many days as they want but after 11 they have to recall.

I guess zero percent and maximum do not matter in the world of NJA or NJASAP. At least I now know why DS wanted the section gone so bad.

 

[dudemize]

While I agree to a point about the lifestyle point. However what if your at a crappy job working your ass off, maybe NJA is still better for some. I think the issue that is being brought up is that we have been told over and over again that after 11 days of selloffs then that triggers recalls. The problem is that in that section of the CBA it says that the company is alowed zero 0 percent selloffs during a period of fuloughes and downgrades provided the company can selloff flights a maximum of 11 days per quarter. The union and company say this means after 11 days then recalls happen, and the company can selloff as many days as they want but after 11 they have to recall.

I guess zero percent and maximum do not matter in the world of NJA or NJASAP. At least I now know why DS wanted the section gone so bad.

1.5(C)(4) is horribly worded. Saying zero percent sell-offs are allowed and then in the next sentence saying they can sell-off unlimited flights up to 11 days per quarter makes no sense. If they can sell-off as many flight as they want on up to 11 days, doesn't that mean, by definition, that they are allowed more than zero percent sell-offs?

I agree that the company wants these pesky restrictions removed. They have no intent to recall or they would have done so by now seeing that it takes months to get someone trained up and ready to fly.

 

[G4dude]

1.5(C)(4) is horribly worded. Saying zero percent sell-offs are allowed and then in the next sentence saying they can sell-off unlimited flights up to 11 days per quarter makes no sense. If they can sell-off as many flight as they want on up to 11 days, doesn't that mean, by definition, that they are allowed more than zero percent sell-offs?

I agree that the company wants these pesky restrictions removed. They have no intent to recall or they would have done so by now seeing that it takes months to get someone trained up and ready to fly.

Certainly no recalls until the economy grows faster and NJA follows suit, I guess.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

From what I hear of the current lifestyle on the road at NJA, there is no amount of money that would get me to return. Not worth it.

I'm much more interested in QOL issues than pure compensation at this point.

What you've heard is accurate. There is really little QOL that can be had while working 14/10's. this tour has been brutal. I use the fatigue policy when I'm tired. Even with the 14 hr min rest provision after a fatigue call, the current workload required of crew members is simply unsustainable. We had better go hard after lifestyle enhancements in the next CBA. People are wearing out around here quickly.

 

[DC-4]

Couple things, first being that rigby after it says 0 percent selloffs it says that provided the company can selloff a maximum of 11 days per quarter. That is important because later it says if the company sellsoff more than 0 percent then any flying during those 11 days are in the calculation. The union and company both say they are allowed to selloff as many days as they want but 11 triggers recall. If that was the case then why does the cba say maximum. Its honestly rediculas my 9 year old daughter could have written it better.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Lets say we had an attorney rewrite it so that exceeding ZERO sell offs would trigger recalls but we want to be nice and allow the company to subcontract for a MAXIMUM of 11 days each quarter while we get pilots trained and on line... How would the lawyer reword it? They wouldn't!!!!!! That's what it says!

 

[BeeDubya]

.....

 

[dudemize]

Lets say we had an attorney rewrite it so that exceeding ZERO sell offs would trigger recalls but we want to be nice and allow the company to subcontract for a MAXIMUM of 11 days each quarter while we get pilots trained and on line... How would the lawyer reword it? They wouldn't!!!!!! That's what it says!

Ducky, I'm no lawyer, but what you say makes more a lot more sense to me than the Union and company interpretation. If I was an outsider I would read it as such. I'm assuming the current interpretation is what was intended, but it sure isn't worded that way. I'd be interested to see the interpretive transcripts on Section 1.

 

[rajflyboy]

just recall the 8 guys out of 495 that want to come back and haven't moved on yet

just do it

its the right thing to do

 

[Xcorporate]

just recall the 8 guys out of 495 that want to come back and haven't moved on yet

just do it

its the right thing to do

That's hilarious.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

I agree with both of those posts.

 

[dudemize]

I think this whole Section 1 language debate is wishful thinking for those hoping to be recalled as result of sell-offs. Both the union and company agree on the current interpretation so that is all that matters. I agree with the current interpretation (the company is allowed up 11 days of unlimited sell-offs with no recalls required), but also agree that it could have been worded better in the CBA.

If current business trends continue, I don't see how recalls can be too far off. Busy season will be interesting, although the company doesn't seem too worried about it or else they would have recalled some folks already in order to have them trained up by then.

I will just be an interested bystander as I don't like flying airplanes enough to return to NJA in its present form.

 

[OPECJet]

It's beyond poorly written. It flatly says anything over 0% and there will be recalls. If that's not what was intended, WTF does it say that? I don't expect NJASAP to fight for something unintended, but dammit, get the language right the first time. How much other crap is in there with meaning other than what is written?

Mize, I'd love to avoid going back, but I can't see that happening. Been up for promotions twice since I've been in my current job to have the positions given to me, then taken away. Still making the same paycheck I was back in 2011 when I started save for the 3% COL bumps each year. Then again health insurance just went up 3% so I'm damn near back where I started.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

100% increase in interest to return to NJ!!!!

One week ago, we thought we only had 8 pilots who want to return to NetJets but now it appears that we actually have 16!!! The additional 8 might just want back pay though.

 

[OPECJet]

One week ago, we thought we only had 8 pilots who want to return to NetJets but now it appears that we actually have 16!!! The additional 8 might just want back pay though.

Rubber Ducky
Current Position: Employed


Need I say more?

 

[Rubber Ducky]

.....

 

[billybob]

Busy season will be interesting, although the company doesn't seem too worried about it or else they would have recalled some folks already in order to have them trained up by then

Word from some buds that drink with some mgt. types is that they know they can't staff the airline this fall and are counting on a contract so they can call back.

It's not that they don't care or don't know. It's that they want to show everyone they are right and Njasap and the others are not.
Theese are people that have made a life of telling organized labor how its going to be and come hell or high water they want to show us this.

Njasap leadership; as a 495er grow a set and tell the membership and the company that we are the face of Netjets and WE will shut the doors if we want.

Nja pilots; tell Njasap leaders that they need to grow a set. I'm not a hostage. And mgt can go eat a d!ck with 1% a year.

10/250

 

[OPECJet]

Busy season will be interesting, although the company doesn't seem too worried about it or else they would have recalled some folks already in order to have them trained up by then

Word from some buds that drink with some mgt. types is that they know they can't staff the airline this fall and are counting on a contract so they can call back.

It's not that they don't care or don't know. It's that they want to show everyone they are right and Njasap and the others are not.
Theese are people that have made a life of telling organized labor how its going to be and come hell or high water they want to show us this.

Njasap leadership; as a 495er grow a set and tell the membership and the company that we are the face of Netjets and WE will shut the doors if we want.

Nja pilots; tell Njasap leaders that they need to grow a set. I'm not a hostage. And mgt can go eat a d!ck with 1% a year.

10/250

What he said.....

I'm betting Hansell has a job at F&H waiting on him if he ends up shutting NJA down. My question, for all you middle management types at NJA reading this board, what's your plan? Think Hansell is going to take you with him?

 

[billybob]

The sad thing is there are guys still thinking that Nja can't make it unless they extend or give something up.

Wake up

There are more people working at Nja now than in 07. The only group with less are the pilots.

I'll go back to the barn to look for my pitch fork now

 

[jetlag7]

.... Word from some buds that drink with some mgt. types is that they know they can't staff the airline this fall and are counting on a contract so they can call back.

It's not that they don't care or don't know. It's that they want to show everyone they are right and Njasap and the others are not.
Theese are people that have made a life of telling organized labor how its going to be and come hell or high water they want to show us this.....

If what they told you is true, then this EMT is a bunch of bigger fools than I took them for... :what:

 

[dudemize]

It's beyond poorly written. It flatly says anything over 0% and there will be recalls. If that's not what was intended, WTF does it say that?

During a time when pilots are on furlough or are downgraded to a
lesser paying position, the subcontracting of NetJets Aviation, Inc.
flights as defined in this Section, are to be at zero (0) percent, pro-
vided the Company may subcontract (sell off) NetJets Aviation, Inc.
flights as defined in this Agreement on a maximum of eleven (11)
calendar days during each quarter.

IMHO, I think the part after "provided" also applies in the 2nd paragraph although it is not mentioned again. Basically, the definition of zero percent has been established in the first paragraph to include the 11 day sell-off caveat for the remainder of the section. Again, it could have been worded less ambiguously, but, there has been no dispute (to my knowledge) over the intent since the signing of the IBB in 2007. But no one really gave a ******************** back then anyway.

Mize, I'd love to avoid going back, but I can't see that happening. Been up for promotions twice since I've been in my current job to have the positions given to me, then taken away. Still making the same paycheck I was back in 2011 when I started save for the 3% COL bumps each year. Then again health insurance just went up 3% so I'm damn near back where I started.

OPEC, I hope you can get back to NJ pronto. A lot of good people have experienced significant hardships since the furlough. On the bright side, the company is going to exceed the 11 days at some point, probably sooner rather than later. Then we can get some recalls going! That is what we should all hope for rather than wasting time and energy trying to nitpick 1.5(C)(4).

Again, just my thoughts.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

A normal English speaking person reads the bold print above as once zero is exceeded, a maximum of 11 days may be subcontracted while recalls are occurring. It says maximum, not minimum. Am I communicating? Maximum / Minimum. Am I communicating? Good.

 

[gunfyter]

English aside ...

My recollection is there are bargaining notes that show the intent of each section of the CBA ... the negotiators of this section have weighed in on and verified its intent when this first became an issue....

If this is correct ... I would think we unfortunately have no recourse here. Any court or arbiter could verify the intent that the company be allowed 11 days worth of sell-offs without penalty ....